The CROWNS system

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks!
I've introduced it into the thread. How to call the object "crown"? And how to say in Greek "He is..." - see that entry to see what I mean.

[Lifthrasir]

Strictly speaking, the name "Emperor of the Greeks" is for the westerners and us.
For the subject of the empire, it's always "basileus Rhomaíōn"--- Emperor of the Romans.


The formal name of the emperor(in a simple way):
Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans---basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn


In a completed way(for example, an emperor whose name is Manuel):
Manuel, in Christ the God faithful Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans---Manouēl, en Christō tō Theō pistós basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn

I will check the names about education~

The last sentence is actually interesting. Coming back on Russia and according to several sources (Wikipedia included), the word "Tsar" is derived fromthe latin word "Caesar" (meaning Emperor). Except in rare occasion, that title was used officially from 1547 by the Grand Prince of Moscow, following the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and with the Russian ambitions to become the 3rd Rome. Anyway, the full title was: "By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias (Божию Милостию, Император и Самодержец Всероссийский [Bozhiyu Milostiyu, Imperator i Samoderzhets Vserossiyskiy])". Quite similar, isn't it?

[Jurand of Cracow]

The last sentence is actually interesting. Coming back on Russia and according to several sources (Wikipedia included), the word "Tsar" is derived fromthe latin word "Caesar" (meaning Emperor). Except in rare occasion, that title was used officially from 1547 by the Grand Prince of Moscow, following the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and with the Russian ambitions to become the 3rd Rome. Anyway, the full title was: "By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias (Божию Милостию, Император и Самодержец Всероссийский [Bozhiyu Milostiyu, Imperator i Samoderzhets Vserossiyskiy])". Quite similar, isn't it?

Indeed. It's why I think for the SS concept of the crowns it should be Tzar - as it's counterpart of the Roman emperor.
All-Russia was actually the response to the claims of the Jagiellonian kings of Poland and Grand Dukes of Lithuania to the Ruthenian lands of Minsk or Kiev. Before there was no need for such claim.

[Lifthrasir]

Actually it should be Czar (a respelling of the Russian word with the letters of the Latin alphabet)
If pushed to the limits, it is Tsĭsarĭ in Old Russian (but might be "too much" ).

Here are some more inputs about Russia (from the 13th to the 16th centuries):

- Alexander Nevsky (ruled 1252-1263) is regarded as a Russian century hero and later a saint in the Russian church. He defended Russia against an invasion of Teutonic knights and defeated the Swedes on the Neva river in 1240 near present-day St. Petersburg. Nevsky was one of the Russian princes who collaborated with the Mongols. The Mongoleader Batu Khan made him the Grand Prince of Russia. He and his successor acted as go-betweens between the Mongols and other Russian princes, who often feuded among themselves.

-Alexander' Nevskys son Daniil Aleksandrovich (ruled 1276-1303) was the first leader to be called the Duke of Muscovy and first ruler of the principality of Muscovy. His successor Ivan I kept the title. Daniil Aleksandrovich (d. 1303) secured the principality for his branch of the Rurik Dynasty.
- Prince Ivan I (ruled 1325-1340) was nicknamed Ivan Kalita ("Money Bags"), for his tax collecting skills for the Mongols. He was the first Russian leader to be recognized as Grand Prince by the Mongols. He cooperated closely with the Mongols and collected tribute from other Russian principalities on their behalf. This relationship enabled Ivan to gain regional ascendancy, particularly over Muscovy's chief rival, the northern city of Tver'. He obtained the title "Grand Prince of Vladimir" from his Mongol overlords.


- The Dukes of Muscovy were strengthened when the Orthodox Church moved to Moscow from Vladimir in the 1320. In time they became regarded as the leaders of Russia and later still became the Russian tsars. Among the Dukes of Muscovy were three Ivans. The Orthodox church remained headquartered in Kiev until 1300, when it moved to Vladimir and then moved again to Moscow in the 1327.

- The Grands Dukes of Muscovy eventually formed an alliance against the Mongols. Duke Dimitri III Donskoi (ruled (1359-89) defeated the Mongols in a great battle at Kulikovo on the Don River in 1380 and drove them from the Moscow area. He was canonized after his death.

The Mongols crushed the Russian rebellion with a costly three-year campaign. Over the decades they had become weak and were eventually defeated by Tamerlane in the 14th century. Unable to completely unify, the Russian prince remained vassals of the Mongols until 1480. In 1552, Ivan the Terrible drove the last Mongol knanates out of Russia with decisive victories in Kazan and Astrakhan. This opened the way for the expansion of the Russian empire southward and across Siberia to the Pacific.


- Ivan III (born 1440, ruled 1462-1505) is also known as Ivan the Great. He is credited with making Russian an independent state, expanding Russian territory and creating an administration system capable of holding the state together. By the fifteenth century, the rulers of Muscovy considered the entire Russian territory their collective property. Various semi-independent princes still claimed specific territories, but Ivan III forced the lesser princes to acknowledge the grand prince of Muscovy and his descendants as unquestioned rulers with control over military, judicial, and foreign affairs.
Ivan III was the first Muscovite ruler to use the titles of tsar and "Ruler of all Rus'." He competed with his powerful northwestern rival Lithuania for control over some of the semi-independent former principalities of Kievan Rus' in the upper Dnepr and Donets river basins. Through the defections of some princes, border skirmishes, and a long, inconclusive war with Lithuania that ended only in 1503, Ivan III was able to push westward, and Muscovy tripled in size under his rule.

Ivan III made Moscow into a strong military state and slowly pieced together a bona fied state by conquering the other Russian principalities one by one. Novgorod was conquered in 1478. Tver fell in 1485, followed by Vyatka in 1489. By 1480, Ivan III was strong enough to refuse the payment of the customary tribute to the Great Khans. The Mongols sent an army against him at the Ugra River southwest of Moscow but they withdrew without fighting. This marked the end of Moscow's subjugation to the Mongols.

After the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, Ivan III married Sophia Paleologue, the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor. This gave credibility to the claim that Moscow (the "Third Rome") was the successor to Constantinople and that Orthodox Russia was the successor the Byzantine Empire. Ivan III marriage also meant that Russia tsars became the leaders of the Orthodox Church. Sophia introduced Byzantine court etiquette to the Kremlin. The Muscovite court adopted Byzantine terms, rituals, titles, and emblems such as the double-headed eagle.

Serfdom began in the medieval period and has its roots in the rule of Ivan III. When he captured Novgorod in 1478 he threw out West-leaning governors and closed Russia's "Window to the West." He replaced the traditional patrimonial system ( votchina), in which noblemen had absolute control over their land and people, with a new system of land tenure ( pomestie, or "estate"), in which noblemen had to answer Ivan III. Those that didn't had their land confiscated.
The move was mainly political: to keep the princes from acting too independently and rebelling and causing trouble. The new system changed society. The new landowners were often little more than administrative civil servants, mostly interested in maintaining in control. Before 1500, peasants often had a fair amount of freedom. After meeting the needs of their landowner, they were free to work for themselves and even change their masters. The new system tied them to the land.

Source: http://factsanddetails.com

A bit long but it summarizes quite well the evolution of the titles in that area. It also confirms that the title of Tsar was used slightly earlier than mid 16th century

[Eldgrimr]

I'll begin working on my list of names and titles tomorrow. Expect some fine work!

[Lifthrasir]

About the crown of Scandinavia: remove Finland and Estonia. They're not part really part of Scandinavia. I'd also rename it by King of the Norsemen (Konungr af (or av) norrœnir menn). Need Elgrimr input on that one

Another title option could be Emperor of the North Sea. That title actually existed somehow and refers to Cnut the Great who ruled on Norway, Denmark and England during the 11th century (1016 - 1035 AD).

[Lord Komnenos]

How to call the object "crown"?

You mean the name of the imperial diadem or tiara? It's a "kamelaukion"(in medieval Greek, kamēlaúkion).

According to Anna Komnenos, this type of crown "was like a semi-spherical close-fitting cap, and profusely adorned with pearls and jewels, someinserted and some pendent; on either side at the temples two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks. This diadem is the essentially distinctive feature of
the Imperial dress."

[Jurand of Cracow]

You mean the name of the imperial diadem or tiara? It's a "kamelaukion"(in medieval Greek, kamēlaúkion).

According to Anna Komnenos, this type of crown "was like a semi-spherical close-fitting cap, and profusely adorned with pearls and jewels, someinserted and some pendent; on either side at the temples two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks. This diadem is the essentially distinctive feature of
the Imperial dress."

Yes, indeed. If you come across a pic, give us know (I understand that it even features your avatar, but I think a one without any face would be better for the game.

About the crown of Scandinavia: remove Finland and Estonia.

From 13c. onwards (if you don't count on the legend of the first crusade in 12c), Finland was in the sphere of influence and partly under the rule of Sweden. Estonia was under the Danish rule in 13/14 c.
So I do believe their inclusion is legitimate.
However, what's most important: we need to balance the crowns. We cannot make one 3-province, and the other 29-province (what would be in the case of large HRR).

[Lifthrasir]

You nailed it: " sphere of influence". Finland and Estonia were colonies. They're not part of Scandinavia culturally and "linguistically" speaking. If you want to included them, you need to rename the crown. Add Meklemburg and Pomorze and rename it King of the Baltic. But again, we're borderline. I really have the feeling that we're sacrifying the accuracy here. From my opinion, I'd stick with the crowns which have really existed for now and see how to implement that stuff further later on, depending on how this works in game.

Regarding the balance, you can play with the benefits the crown gives. "Small crown" gives small benefit, "big" crowns gives bigger benefits. Same remark about possible penalties. I can't see how to do it in another way

[Eldgrimr]

Should the crowns and leader titles of Catholic nations be in Latin or the native languages?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Should the crowns and leader titles of Catholic nations be in Latin or the native languages?

Actually, I don't know. In case of Poland and Hungary I've chosen Latin as it was the language used at that time. I think most should be actually in Latin. What do you think? :-)

[Lord Komnenos]

Yes, indeed. If you come across a pic, give us know (I understand that it even features your avatar, but I think a one without any face would be better for the game.

This is a real byzantine style kamelaukion https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4b/40...858bd76606.jpg

[Eldgrimr]

Actually, I don't know. In case of Poland and Hungary I've chosen Latin as it was the language used at that time. I think most should be actually in Latin. What do you think? :-)

In most Catholic countries during the time, Latin was the written language, and all sources for Nordic titles of the era are in Latin. So I suppose Latin would be the most historically accurate.

[Lifthrasir]

Most of the sources are in Latin because most of the writtings were originally done by monks and/or alike. So actually, it really depends if we consider the early era only or the full period during which native languages started to take over. For simpicity, Latin is the best option for Catholic factions IMO

[Eldgrimr]

Does that mean we should change the normal titles of the faction leaders? Such as "rex" instead of "konungr"?

[Jurand of Cracow]

This is a real byzantine style kamelaukion https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4b/40...858bd76606.jpg

Ok, LK. How do you like this change:
- old crown

- new crown

Does that mean we should change the normal titles of the faction leaders? Such as "rex" instead of "konungr"?

Well... as I've mentioned - I don't have very firm opinion...
And I like konungr more thant rex ;-)

Can you also provide a pic of the crown, eg from the times the Union of Kalmar?

[Lifthrasir]

It really depends if we go for the simplist way (Latin names in that case) or the "immersive" way (native languages' names - more complicated as well but my favorite option tbh).

[Eldgrimr]

It really depends if we go for the simplist way (Latin names in that case) or the "immersive" way (native languages' names - more complicated as well but my favorite option tbh).

Right now it's a bit of a mix. Countries are named in Latin while faction leaders have native names. Since you're the big man, I'll let you decide, and I'll work on it.

Can you also provide a pic of the crown, eg from the times the Union of Kalmar?

Sadly I cannot find any preserved crowns that were in use during the Kalmar Union, or during the times of medieval Denmark. The only thing I could find was Erik the Holy of Sweden's crown.

[Lifthrasir]

Just carry on with the mix and we'll see what needs to be changed

That crown pic should do

[Lord Komnenos]

Ok, LK. How do you like this change:
- old crown

- new crown

I think the new one is better. The old one is lack of the distinctive feature of two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks.