Permission Issues to use Warcraft assets in other mods/sub-mods!

[Mr_Nygren]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...raft-Total-War

We have the stance that you'd need to ask permission to use any assets from Warcraft: Total War in another mod not connected to Warcraft.

If you want to create your own submod where you add your own campaign and stuff, then permissions are also required and there are certain conditions. Write PM to me for more information.

We do give out permission to anyone doing gameplay submods where you add descriptions, stat-changes, different starting positions etc - basically as long as you don't add new units, settlements or change the map it should be fine. Changing placements on the current map is perfectly fine though - we don't want you to create something that would be considered a rival to Warcraft: Total War - but as long as it's a submod which enhances things in the current version it should be fine.

You do still need to ask permission. And the only condition is that you permit us to use anything from your submod should we wish to do that. In other words, if we think it's good enough we may add it to the official release - if we do not think so, it will be unique to your submod.

If a submod is added to the Official Mod then the sub-modder will get credited for it. But it would be unacceptable that we should need permission for using any submod changes in the official mod - due to submods basically using all the work we've done. So beware that permissions will go both ways.

Any Private submod is fine - for public use permission is needed. - Gameplay submods are permitted as long as the condition mentioned above is accepted.

Edit: All of Eoghan Wolfkin's models are free to use in any mod as long as Eoghan Wolfkin is credited - this includes the old models from the alpha found in the Azeroth thread, it includes the old Troll, Elven, Ogre & Undead units. And it includes basically half of the Undead roster and most of the Human roster - also it does include the Orcs.

Beware that the better looking models added in the recent Beta are not free to use.

[Faylar001]

Is there an active link to the original by Eoghan Wolfkin anymore? The one on ModDB was taken down.

[Mr_Nygren]

Is there an active link to the original by Eoghan Wolfkin anymore? The one on ModDB was taken down.

There should be some older versions in the WIP-area of TWC in the Azeroth thread.

- At least two versions of his alpha should be there.

Yes, i did remove all the older versions to not have to deal with people asking what version is the right one etc. By only keeping the most recent one (the real official beta, the others had no playable campaign and many rosters were missing) i won't have to answer questions from confused people about which version they should download.

I've had enough of that with other mods where they can't even understand that the most recent is stand-alone - so they would download outdated mods and then ask why it won't work.

[Faylar001]

I'm not turning up anything, could you point me to a download link by any chance?

[Mr_Nygren]

I'm not turning up anything, could you point me to a download link by any chance?

The oldest Alpha made up of the old stuff by the original team plus Eoghan's new stuff from march 29 2017 - what we started out with.

Released aug 8 2017 on MODDB.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/djuyz8fwozgomnt/WTW.rar

[Mr_Nygren]

April 22 2017 version - has a lot of additional material but is not as complete as the Official Demo.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/b3lfp8cu75l4u44/WTW.rar

[Faylar001]

Thanks a lot.

[Mr_Nygren]

Regardng permissions, i just want to state the rules of any sub-mod:

If you are an ex-member of the team and want to use the recent Warcraft: Total War as a base, then you'll have to share anything you create in your sub-mod with the team should we wish to use it - otherwise we won't allow the sub-mod.

The reason is me and Bantu Chieftain haven't spent months working on the mod turning it from version 1.1 to version 1.5 for someone not active anymore to "steal" the mod and make it into something else - still using all our work.

For version 1.0 and even 1.1 we allow submods by any team-member without any demands whatsoever.

But for the 1.5 version, and this especially is something i say to Sulfurion because he hinted over PM that he plans to "take the mod when he gets the time and has the will, and turn it into his own original vision" - that we don't allow him to take 1.5 unless all his new pictures and art-assets are free for us to use as well.

I mean, i didn't create anything for somebody else to use in his submod - unless i am free to use his assets as well.

The way i am thinking, is that he may finish off unit info pictures and such in a sub-mod of his - material the main mod should have free access to as well. If not - then we don't want him or anyone else to have free access to our latest work.
Sulf has written over PM that he did get away from the mod due to infighting regarding the route the mod should take - which i can understand perfectly.

"This type of nonsense is why I got away from the mod this year" - Sulf.

He also wrote:

"Anyway like I said, I might just take the mod in the near future when I have the will and time and just re-mod it to my original vision, as a sub-mod or something. But I can't work on something that is constantly changing like a goddamn Tzeentchian demon."

And i do understand his opinion - i also have a hard time working with anyone when i don't get my way. Which is why i have felt it very demanding to work with Bantu lately due to his constant demands on things in the mod.

Anyway, if he wants to create a submod using version 1.5 - then any assets in it should be available to the main mod for use - otherwise, why would we share the assets we've added recently.

Sulfurion may be developer here, and creator on mod db - but he hasn't been doing anything for half a year - because he didn't like the route the mod has taken in various aspects. If you haven't been active with the recent work on the mod, then you have no right to the recent work - the only exception if anything you create are also available to us.

Because i wouldn't create new art if there existed like the very art i wanted in his sub mod - then i would take it from there.. And i don't think that is a problem if he plans to take 1.5 and turn it into his own project.

So the rules are - submods needs to share assets with the main mod. Thank you!

[Mr_Nygren]

Update:

1. I am not the guy riging any of the models, so i cannot hand out permissions to use any models - Bantu Chieftain is the only one who can do that.

Older models by Eoghan Wolfkin are already free to use as Eoghan gave that permission from the start.

2. As Sulfurion almost always with few exceptions is ignoring me and Bantu on PM, i feel the need to post here as i dislike that behaviour and being ignored in general - he critizised me for my unit information pictures. Said i didn't care about the quality because they aren't the same style as his unit information pictures.

I just want to say, that even though my info pics are of less quality than Sulfs, i still think that he is in no place of handing out critique - because i would have used his had he made them. My information pictures are much better than the vanilla Med2 pics that i replaced - Sulf hasn't done anything in half a year and frankly i think that is more worthy of critique than my pics being of less quality than his. Had he made his own those would have been used. One cannot expect others to create art in the same style, or of the same quality - skills differ, styles differ and quality will therefore differ. I think if Sulf wanted his own style everywhere then he should have made that art and not gone inactive for half a year. At least i did make pictures, where he didn't even make anything.

"But he can't really give me critique for creating info pics, when he himself hasn't created anything in half a year.If he hasn't done anything himself, then that is worthy of more critique than my portraits being worse than his."

3. Bantu Chieftain riged all the units without help, and still Sulf thinks it is appropriate to critizise him based on quality - when Sulf hasn't made any reskin since the Night Elven Warriors back in april.

Bantu doesn't think he can just come in and complain about the quality of Bantu's riging/texture work - when he himself didn't help one bit.

To summarize all this, we don't approve of Sulfurion ignoring PM from us - and as only me and Bantu are writing over Skype - we had to put this here.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

If you spent less time rambling about who owns what and who does what and you actually spent that time actually modding, perhaps the mod wouldn't be such a half-completed mess with a huge variation in quality of assets and a metric ton of others missing. An unpolished, ugly, buggy mess is what the mod is. You both just think of injecting into the mod regardless of wether it makes lore sense or if it even is good for gameplay. It is a bloated corpse of me and HappyC's original vision. Your constant autistic nagging is what drove me away from the mod and the reason why I haven't "done ". What exactly did you even mod huh? Pretty much all you ever did was import stuff from other people's mods or implement what the other team members did. Yeah, you kept the mod together and organized and all that. But when it came to actually producing content?...

Though I disagreed with many of Bantu's choice for textures he at least did plenty of work. So did WarcraftHero. But when it comes to all the background modding, all the text stuff and buildings and units and making the actual campaign even resembling something playable it was like 80% me. And I just gave up, because you're a toxic, petty little man who has to make everything personal, constantly being rude and condescending to your own followers both here and on Moddb, because you can't for 5 ing minutes be a little professional about all this. And I don't need this kind of stress. Unlike you, I have things to do other than modding a 10 year old game to feel acknowledged. That is the only reason why I let you have the reins for as long as you did, much to my regret.

[Mr_Nygren]

If you spent less time rambling about who owns what and who does what and you actually spent that time actually modding, perhaps the mod wouldn't be such a half-completed mess with a huge variation in quality of assets and a metric ton of others missing. An unpolished, ugly, buggy mess is what the mod is. You both just think of injecting into the mod regardless of wether it makes lore sense or if it even is good for gameplay. It is a bloated corpse of me and HappyC's original vision. Your constant autistic nagging is what drove me away from the mod and the reason why I haven't "done ". What exactly did you even mod huh? Pretty much all you ever did was import stuff from other people's mods or implement what the other team members did. Yeah, you kept the mod together and organized and all that. But when it came to actually producing content?...

Though I disagreed with many of Bantu's choice for textures he at least did plenty of work. So did WarcraftHero. But when it comes to all the background modding, all the text stuff and buildings and units and making the actual campaign even resembling something playable it was like 80% me. And I just gave up, because you're a toxic, petty little man who has to make everything personal, constantly being rude and condescending to your own followers both here and on Moddb, because you can't for 5 ing minutes be a little professional about all this. And I don't need this kind of stress. Unlike you, I have things to do other than modding a 10 year old game to feel acknowledged. That is the only reason why I let you have the reins for as long as you did, much to my regret.

1. I do spend time posting pictures on MOD DB with development updates because that keeps the interest in the mod going, everytime the mod is updated it is going up the popularity ladder - resulting in more visitors and players in the end. I do also like showcasing the work that i do, and the work others in the team do - after i've implemented such work. This is done to show players that the mod is actively developing and not dead at all.

The mod would still be a half-completed mod (not mess) because we started out with Eoghans models, and then we decided to add new models - and it will take some time until all those older models are gone. Of course my idea is a mod with only high quality models in it - but that is not singlehandedly my call you know. Bantu is the modeller, he has to have the time and will to replace older models - and if he doesn't then the mod will have different styles. As for the portraits and such they are made by different people - you could have finished the info pics yourself if you wanted your style everywhere - instead of about my work being an "ugly mess".

Mods usually have variation in the quality of assets due to different assets being created by different people. Only mods like Hyrule where every asset is made by the same guy would have the same artstyle everywhere. Or if the team somehow agree's on one style - and not have individuals who creates art based on their own style ignoring the style of others. I've said to Bantu that it would be best to keep to your style for pics, so you wouldn't start ranting which i knew you would - but sometimes people want to create things based on their own taste. So the fault lies with you for not creating said art yourself.

"An unpolished, ugly, buggy mess is what the mod is." The mod may be unpolished in your eyes, and in certain areas it still is - mods aren't 100% polished until they reach the final release.. And we aren't there yet by far.. We are also just two people plus WarcraftHero when he has the time - working on the mod. Your inactivity didn't help the polishing of the mod. The mod is far from ugly, in many ways it is beautiful - just because you dislike certain parts of it doesn't make the mod as a whole ugly. And the mod is far from a buggy mess - it has one of the most stable campaign maps of any mod i dare say - 3000+ turns without a single crash on the strat-map! In battles it is mostly hounds, gianst and dragons causing crashes - if we remove them there would most likely not be any CTD in battles. We might release one version without such units just to see if that is true.

You stating the mod is an unpolished, ugly buggy mess - is not a statement worthy of someone being developer or creator of the mod. You should leave the team or be removed from it based on your statement - we don't want someone like you in the team who says that about the mod. The Frozen Throne campaign is WIP - i have only changed the upper EK area as i originally was only going to give Rampaned a BE version - but did more than that.

"It is a bloated corpse of me and HappyC's original vision."

You are funny - as far as i recall your original version had a campaign map and some symbols.. That was all there was to it.. The rest were vanilla - vanilla units, vanilla cities, vanilla music, vanilla everything.. If you think that was more polished then good for you - maybe it were because it had only the vanilla Medieval 2 style with few exceptions. A Warcraft map with vanilla content on it - i don't think the majority of the players agree with you. Our mod is so much better it's not even a contest.. You may be part of the team, but based on your statement you think badly of the work we have all done. It makes you undeserving of your position.

"Your constant autistic nagging is what drove me away from the mod"

Yesterday it was ""This type of nonsense is why I got away from the mod this year" - Sulf. - make up your mind man.

"What exactly did you even mod huh? Pretty much all you ever did was import stuff from other people's mods or implement what the other team members did."

As far as i recall...

1. I did implement all the Warhammer siege engines and Hyrule siege engines.

2. Implemented the Hyrule stratmodels of the demo.

3. Implemented the Myth animations.

4. Created the background-video/intro-video out of WC3 FMWs and implemented it into the mod.

5. Sugegsted to Eoghan that he could use the Elder Scrolls skeletons as basemodels for Scourge - my idea.

6. Wrote all the decsriptions for Eoghans units in the mod, wrote all the faction descriptions or found old ones in the main thread after reading it all and included them - i gathered all the material from the old thread.

7. Implemented most of the Scourge models and the reskins of Humans that did get their own slots (they became their own units and not simple reskins, took time to implement all of it).

I did add starting garrisons to the campaign in the demo. As i recall we were all very active during spring 2017 and you did symbols, banners, family trees, religions and the building tree. I did the things above plus assembled the june 2 version and fixed portraits and stuff in it so that the official demo could be released. It was also my idea to continue the alpha by Eoghan, and WarcraftHero joined me, i did invite you and THC - and after that you guys joined. Bantu only joined afterwards - because i managed to track him down by asking around. He had been banned from TWC under his older user RoyalJester - and had been banned shortly after posting pics of the Human Stormwind Footman in the Azeroth thread. So if it weren't for me Bantu would never have sent the Human footman, knight and the horse - which would have meant Eoghan would never have gotten the better Human models, resulting in the mod looking like in the march 29 2017 alpha with really old models based on Med2 vanilla. It is thanks to me that Bantu sent me those three models, which i in turn sent to Eoghan - after which he made the Human rosters using them as a base.

Also, as i recall only me and Bantu worked on the mod during the fall of 2017 and now during the fall of 2018 - while you and WarcraftHero hardly had time to do anything - i do recall you doing minor things during the fall of 2017, and WarcraftHero slightly more. What Bantu did was riging models, and i coded them into the mod - coding hundreds of models into the mod isn't fast work you know, and it is still both work and modding. I did add even more animations, balance to all the factions based on BotET (you re-did it later, doesn't mean i didn't do it all first - you just thought you could do it better and re-did the same work), kept the mod safe by backing up numerous versions and sending to everyone, i did lots to the 1.0 version - such as adding over 40 new regions to the map, adding all the rebels to the map (you re-did some of the garrisons later because you didn't like mine), i did the music-mod, i have created about 140 portraits for the 1.0 and 1.1 versions (unit-cards), i have done a lot to the gameplay aspect of the mod - you are stating you did most of the recruitment but you are wrong.

- You set up the recruitment/building system. But you did only ever add Eoghans Scourge/Human/Horde units and their re-skins (Scarlets, Dark Horde, Legion, Stromgarde) to the recruitment - i did add all the units from the Farraki to the final unit of Bantu's. I did add all Bantu's high quality models to the recruitment. I did also add all his additions to Eoghans rosters.

This term i've implemented/imported custom settlements from other mods, and created over 40 new unit cards - plus implemented all the over sixty new models to the mod, and to the rebels-file, strat-map, recruitment and what-not. I've fixed lots of errors and bugs as well and done more than i can count now in my head.

All in all i've done a lot more than you!

You may think implementing units are not time-consuming, that coding is not modding etc - you are wrong on all counts. Coding, implementing other people's work, creating music-mods, movies, portraits or making big gameplay changes through coding is all modding the game - i never said i were a creator. But still i have created lots of unit cards.

You can be a creator without being a modder - an example of that is Zerg93 who has created art for the mod that he has left for a modder like me to code into the mod/game.

You can be a modder without being a creator - an example of that is if you code stuff but never create anything yourself - still months upon months of coding and text-work using other people's content. And i did create unit cards and such so i was a creator of easily created stuff. It is still time-consuming to create hundreds of unit cards. But i have never said that being a creator was my thing in modding - being a coder still counts a lot.

Finally you can be both a creator and a coder - and still be a modder. Undying Nephalim is an example of being everything in one person. That is impressive but very rare.

So - you are wrong about modders needing to be creators - and about me not creating stuff.

"But when it came to actually producing content?"

Unit cards, videos and music - even thoug i am using material from other sources. But most of your art is also Warcraft art used by you and not made from scratch by you.

"Though I disagreed with many of Bantu's choice for textures he at least did plenty of work. So did WarcraftHero."

And so did i... If it weren't for my work we wouldn't have a playable mod. We can start with taking most things out of the mod. Lots of models and material would exist yes - but they would not be in the mod. The mod wouldn't be stable in the strat-map as i fixed the CTD-issue of the map in Geomod in the Deadwind Pass region, it wouldn't have lots of the animations required for units (i implemented Myth, Hyrule and others as well), quite a few units were suggestions by me to Bantu and wouldn't be in the mod - mod wouldn't be finished without me in it's current shape.

It would have died most likely. Because Bantu stated that he tire fast on text-work - and you others don't have enough free time. hence it would have died, or taken many years to release. And without my work say goodbye to the music, the videos, hundreds of cards and some units plus all the coding for Bantu's units and half of Eoghans - even though Eoghan would probably have done it by himself had i not done it. Bantu wouldn't have joined without me so goodbye to all his riged units.

"all the text stuff and buildings and units and making the actual campaign even resembling something playable it was like 80% me."

You are funny.. It was like 40% you and 60 percent me.. You forget the implementation of the units. You did the symbols, banners, family tree's/members, religions, you re-did my garrisons and my balance (we both did that), you did the building tree and the recruitment system and you added all of Eoghans units to the system that you set up - but i did Bantu's units and they are the vast majority.. That is why without your work the mod wouldn't be playable, but without mine it wouldn't neither - my work is still more vast than yours.

I worked for one year and 7 months on the mod (four terms with only two months vacation from it) - you did nothing this fall, and did minor modding during the fall of 2017. Actually me and Bantu have been the heaviest contributors to this mod since it was ressurected. You trying to say i did nothing is shameful. You trying to steal the honor of my work by stating "80% was your work" is utter .

"because you're a toxic, petty little man who has to make everything personal, constantly being rude and condescending to your own followers both here and on Moddb, because you can't for 5 ing minutes be a little professional about all this."

Your text above is hardly professional.

"Unlike you, I have things to do other than modding a 10 year old game to feel acknowledged. That is the only reason why I let you have the reins for as long as you did, much to my regret."

You didn't let anyone have the reins, i invited you and THC back - i had the team-leader position from the start. You are just being silly stating otherwise.

[Seshomaru]

Guys, guys. I have no right to say this but I simply don't like to see people arguing about a mod I like. Do you really care who made the work as long as the "final product" looks good, is playable and makes many people return to M2TW ? Because, for me at least, I almost never know the people who made mods (the only exception is King Kong whom I know made Stainless Steel + TATW and Gigantus who made Rise of Three Kingdoms, but that's all), I simply enjoy to play a certain mod and I don't really bother to remember who created the mod. After all it's not important. What's important is what the community sees.

Now that's my word, I don't know what grudges you might have against each other, but it's better to either work together or dig it and forget about it. ... once again, this is just the opinion of a random tw player (me), nothing else. Cheers!

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

Yes, that was uncharacteristic of me. I apologize for my explosion, but I had to vent it out. I wish they would be more restrained (as in adding stuff and making sure that stuff works before adding more) and more professional in their modding. Calling the current version of the mod 1.5 considering everything that is unpolished and unfinished just leaves me with a very sour taste.

Other mods finish their campaigns first, add all the background fluff, scripts and so on, and then release it, and every 'update' brings a bunch of new content. Warcraft Total War right now is an alpha being called a full release to goad people into playing it, they do, and find a half-cooked mess which, save for some really enthusiastic folk, drives them away from the mod, as I've seen in countless comments on youtube for example. But they do not care. When I spoke of me and HappyC's original vision I mean we wanted to do a proper mod. They just want to do "A mod" uncaring about its quality.

Case in point, the recent unit description portraits. I did the portraits and descriptions for the Night Elves, Humans and Undead, and I had to stop there due to lack of time and losing interest in the mod. The least they could have done was keep in my style, which was as simple as taking a screenshot of the units in the battle map and messing the colors a bit. Really simple stuff. But instead they decide to add their own portraits which is just a singular unit without any background and it just looks... weird. You see my point? This is minor stuff of course, personally I wouldn't care much except that this mentality of "who cares if it looks good or is consistent? throw it in and see if it sticks!" is reflected in everything else and is why I am rightfully pissed off.

[Seshomaru]

Yeah, I get your point, however, from what I understood at least, even the 1.5 version is still a beta, if I'm not mistaken, meaning there are many more things to do. I haven't played much of the mod myself but it looks "okayish" (maybe because I played W3 for a very long time and also WoW, so ehh... I might be subjective) and it's playable (so far I crased just once). Of course there are many things subject to change but well... it's better to have something to play once in a while than hoping for a release (look at Tsardom Total War... ).

Anyway, as you pointed yourself, everyone is busy with real life stuff, that's why we have to be content at least in our "online" time (aka like this one in games) and try to enjoy it instead of arguing about non-important things (maybe I'll hurt you a bit, but unit cards are not THAT important, lets be honest ). If differences appear you(the mod's team) can just cast a vote or something(good old democracy!), just ideas from someone "out of the box". Peace out!

[Mr_Nygren]

Guys, guys. I have no right to say this but I simply don't like to see people arguing about a mod I like. Do you really care who made the work as long as the "final product" looks good, is playable and makes many people return to M2TW ? Because, for me at least, I almost never know the people who made mods (the only exception is King Kong whom I know made Stainless Steel + TATW and Gigantus who made Rise of Three Kingdoms, but that's all), I simply enjoy to play a certain mod and I don't really bother to remember who created the mod. After all it's not important. What's important is what the community sees.

Now that's my word, I don't know what grudges you might have against each other, but it's better to either work together or dig it and forget about it. ... once again, this is just the opinion of a random tw player (me), nothing else. Cheers!

As a player i can see why you don't care.

- If you've spent days, weeks, months or even years working on a mod then you'd care about who did what - especially since it matters for the permissions to use the mod and the assets in it. Also, if you haven't done anything then someone can rightfully say that to point towards you having less of a say in the mods matters. Sulf here tried to say i had done nothing but imported stuff made by others from other mods - with that comment he tried to say that i had almost not done anything, and as such he and the others were more deserving of the reputation, credit and say in the mods matters. Of course i find that type of comment highly unjustified and had to answer.

I do also keep track of who created what mod - as i think it is a prestige involved. If you build your own house that would probably be something you would be proud of. Same is true for mods - the creators of a mod are often proud of their work. And who made it is the very core of everything. It might not matter to most players - but it is the very core to someone who has put their time, soul and blood into it. I can't let that type of unjustified post go unanswered. One of my reasons for modding is succeeding with something, getting a reputation and so on - i don't mod just for fun. I also mod for the reputation it brings. Who or what group of people created it is very important to the developers.

Sulf doesn't want to work on the mod, he stated himself he plans to just take it and do his own thing - no one has said he weren't allowed to work on it.

[Mr_Nygren]

Yes, that was uncharacteristic of me. I apologize for my explosion, but I had to vent it out. I wish they would be more restrained (as in adding stuff and making sure that stuff works before adding more) and more professional in their modding. Calling the current version of the mod 1.5 considering everything that is unpolished and unfinished just leaves me with a very sour taste.

Other mods finish their campaigns first, add all the background fluff, scripts and so on, and then release it, and every 'update' brings a bunch of new content. Warcraft Total War right now is an alpha being called a full release to goad people into playing it, they do, and find a half-cooked mess which, save for some really enthusiastic folk, drives them away from the mod, as I've seen in countless comments on youtube for example. But they do not care. When I spoke of me and HappyC's original vision I mean we wanted to do a proper mod. They just want to do "A mod" uncaring about its quality.

Case in point, the recent unit description portraits. I did the portraits and descriptions for the Night Elves, Humans and Undead, and I had to stop there due to lack of time and losing interest in the mod. The least they could have done was keep in my style, which was as simple as taking a screenshot of the units in the battle map and messing the colors a bit. Really simple stuff. But instead they decide to add their own portraits which is just a singular unit without any background and it just looks... weird. You see my point? This is minor stuff of course, personally I wouldn't care much except that this mentality of "who cares if it looks good or is consistent? throw it in and see if it sticks!" is reflected in everything else and is why I am rightfully pissed off.

Giants/Dragons/Hounds crash randomly in all the mods where they are to be found (Hyrule, Warhammer, old Third Age Ents/Spiders etc) and can't be fixed more than they are. Only way is removing them or using advanced scripts - and we do not have a member skilled in advanced scripting as you should know. As an example with advanced scripting we could have one-man giants in the campaign - but otherwise they'll be three and would crash more often.

The method used for custom battles didn't work in the campaign - hence why custom battles are so much more stable using full armies with giants/dragons and monster units involved. At least on the battle-map at the top that is vanilla. The large/huge sizes of armies automatically makes the numbers two or three, and if one would script them to be one using simple scripts - they would still be three when loading a save-game.

Mods like Hyrule are using scripts to respawn them as one each turn, but that is probably hard to do - and beyond my and Bantu's abilities. As such we cannot make the mod more stable, without removing lots of cool units. Maybe the advanced scripts that we need for giants could be implemented in the future - one giant almost never crash the game - but three of each unit of giants are a little too much sometimes.


It is a 1.5 due to version 1.0 being the release in april - then we fixed issues and added eleven new units etc and it became 1.1 which is the lowest possible upgrade. Then we worked non-stop for three months and a few weeks between late august and decembre - and that was a much larger amount of work done compared to 1.1 - as such it needed to get more than one point. Looking at Hyrule Total War Neph used to make it one release per term - 3.0 in decembre, 3.5 in the summer and 4.0 in the winter. Five points for each half year - and i followed his concept.

"Other mods finish their campaigns first, add all the background fluff, scripts and so on, and then release it, and every 'update' brings a bunch of new content."

Campain was finished (the old), background fluff were finished such as scripts because no one in the team could add anything more advanced than what WarcraftHero managed to add (Blood Elven/Forsaken spawns, Arthas spawns) and what i did add (battle-AI and campaign-AI plus as i recall a script against bankruptcy) - every update is adding just that.

No, Warcraft Total War is a beta with some material still undone such as info portraits, or replacement of some older models, or lacking the final units planed for the mod, lacking Warcraft sound and voices, and maybe new projectiles who looks like in Warcraft 3 or WoW. It isn't an alpha - Eoghan's unfinished release were an alpha release. Beta's are fully playable like this mod.

I can agree certain gameplay elements are bad in the mod, such as the economy - but that is the result of team members having different taste in what makes a Total War mod fun. Some people like Bantu enjoys easy economy and fast pop growth - others like me enjoys harder economy and pop growth being slow. More a case of accepting the taste of others - i didn't agree about the current economy.

"When I spoke of me and HappyC's original vision I mean we wanted to do a proper mod. They just want to do "A mod" uncaring about its quality."

You are entirely wrong - both me and Bantu are perfectionists. We are trying our best to do everything as perfect as possible. Sometimes taste differs and that is why the economy is bad, or why there are ugly shiny textures in the mod etc. And as for the unit info pictures - they are better than vanilla Med2 pics.

"The least they could have done was keep in my style, which was as simple as taking a screenshot of the units in the battle map and messing the colors a bit. Really simple stuff. But instead they decide to add their own portraits which is just a singular unit without any background and it just looks... weird. You see my point?"

I told Bantu to keep to your style - he did his own thing. He still thinks his pics are of high quality so you have differing opinions there. As for my own pics i just took the time and made unit cards and unit info pics at the same time - would it have been better to keep the vanilla? No one said you aren't free to make yours and replace mine later. I kinda counted on it to be honest with you - however, Bantu would not agree with you replacing his pics.

"who cares if it looks good or is consistent? throw it in and see if it sticks!" is reflected in everything else "

There is no such mentality, you just think your own style is so superior that you think that anyone adding anything different is not caring about the quality.

[Bantu Chieftain]

1.I did hundreds of units on my own in a huge amount of time. Couldnt possibly make every texture of it perfect even though most units look much better than you would hope for. You should have suggested changes at least for the units that look too cartoon.

2.Unit images and unit cards like this are to be expected of "warcraft"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why wouldnt this go for a info-image?

3. Did my own thing....and managed to make a transforming bear and a transforming demon hunter.

[DarkInterloper]

You have no right to have these frankly ludicrous demands of submodders, Nygren. Submodder's work is their own and it's just basic bloody human courtesy to get their permission before you implement anything into you base mod. You own work is built on the work of innumerous modders who made the med2 engine even remotely moddable. You use gigantus's tools to even have a map yet he doesn't run around claiming some delusional ownership of every medieval 2 mod. Especially when your mod is a frankenstein's monster of assets taken from vastly more talented people with a coat of paint crudely splashed over them. Warcraft Total War has become a recurring joke for the Hyrule Conquest community to see how egregiously out of place labrynnian bears or a badly recolored zunayus looks when thrown together with low poly Warcraft models and Warhammer siege towers. It's embarrasssing for all parties- neph never intended for his assets to be wholesale lifted and imported into other overhaul mods
Skeletons as a base for your own custom creatures? Sure, but do your own bloody work! Find a modeller, hell pay one! Surely someone in the Warcraft Total War community could model units or settlements for you? This is to say *nothing* of the accusations of outright uncredited theft of Warcraft fanart for unit portraits and loading screen backgrounds levelled at your mod team. Maybe its hearsay, I hope it is, don't become the "hackjob asset flipper" of the modding community. Show your team members, be they ex, current and any submodders who invest their own time and labor to help your ass, basic respect and sure as hell credit them even if they did so much as edit a unit description.

[Bantu Chieftain]

You have no right to have these frankly ludicrous demands of submodders, Nygren. Submodder's work is their own and it's just basic bloody human courtesy to get their permission before you implement anything into you base mod. You own work is built on the work of innumerous modders who made the med2 engine even remotely moddable. You use gigantus's tools to even have a map yet he doesn't run around claiming some delusional ownership of every medieval 2 mod. Especially when your mod is a frankenstein's monster of assets taken from vastly more talented people with a coat of paint crudely splashed over them. Warcraft Total War has become a recurring joke for the Hyrule Conquest community to see how egregiously out of place labrynnian bears or a badly recolored zunayus looks when thrown together with low poly Warcraft models and Warhammer siege towers. It's embarrasssing for all parties- neph never intended for his assets to be wholesale lifted and imported into other overhaul mods
Skeletons as a base for your own custom creatures? Sure, but do your own bloody work! Find a modeller, hell pay one! Surely someone in the Warcraft Total War community could model units or settlements for you? This is to say *nothing* of the accusations of outright uncredited theft of Warcraft fanart for unit portraits and loading screen backgrounds levelled at your mod team. Maybe its hearsay, I hope it is, don't become the "hackjob asset flipper" of the modding community. Show your team members, be they ex, current and any submodders who invest their own time and labor to help your ass, basic respect and sure as hell credit them even if they did so much as edit a unit description.

What are you, SJW activist? Slave of the system?

[Mr_Nygren]

You have no right to have these frankly ludicrous demands of submodders, Nygren. Submodder's work is their own and it's just basic bloody human courtesy to get their permission before you implement anything into you base mod. You own work is built on the work of innumerous modders who made the med2 engine even remotely moddable. You use gigantus's tools to even have a map yet he doesn't run around claiming some delusional ownership of every medieval 2 mod. Especially when your mod is a frankenstein's monster of assets taken from vastly more talented people with a coat of paint crudely splashed over them. Warcraft Total War has become a recurring joke for the Hyrule Conquest community to see how egregiously out of place labrynnian bears or a badly recolored zunayus looks when thrown together with low poly Warcraft models and Warhammer siege towers. It's embarrasssing for all parties- neph never intended for his assets to be wholesale lifted and imported into other overhaul mods
Skeletons as a base for your own custom creatures? Sure, but do your own bloody work! Find a modeller, hell pay one! Surely someone in the Warcraft Total War community could model units or settlements for you? This is to say *nothing* of the accusations of outright uncredited theft of Warcraft fanart for unit portraits and loading screen backgrounds levelled at your mod team. Maybe its hearsay, I hope it is, don't become the "hackjob asset flipper" of the modding community. Show your team members, be they ex, current and any submodders who invest their own time and labor to help your ass, basic respect and sure as hell credit them even if they did so much as edit a unit description.

Hey man, i don't know why you are aggressive towards me? As far as i recall my problem was with Sulf wanting to make a submod using my work but maybe not sharing his new assets - threatening to steal the glory of the mod. I mean - if a submod is created and the original team doesn't have the right to the new assets inside of it - but they somehow took all the assets that we have added recently - then why would anyone play the original mod?

Frankly i don't allow any of my pics, coding etc to be used in a submod - unless the one making a submod using work by me allows me the same right. Sounds fair? So why the aggressive attitude because why should i allow a submod using my work, if their work isn't allowed for me to use in kind? Then their submod is apotential threat to the main mod because as you know - i am not a creator of certain assets, and they would use all our unique assets (models that Bantu riged, and skins/pics/coding by both me and him) in their submod while possibly adding lots of other material making their mod better. Then our work has been for nothing.

It isn't just me having this opinion you know.. Bantu Chieftain could most likely tell you that it is his oopinion to not let anyone use anything he riged. And if so, then sharing must go both ways - that is the only way to protect the mod from a submod becoming superior. It would still have unique gameplay and custom material that we don't want.

Also, about using assets - the older models in Warcraft Total War were based on WC3 fanmade models and WC3-models, Eoghan Wolfkin riged those - i believe he had permission from the Elder: Scrolls Total War to use those skeletons as a base. They are not HTW but Elder Scrolls.

Second, about HTW i just read Nephs statement about allowing people to use his assets in other mods. In the early releases i only used strat-models for the Stalfos from 3.6, animations, and Bantu used the bear from Labrynna for the Trolls. However, in the new version we have replaced those bears with actual wWarcraft bears you know. Same with the Cold Ones who are now Warcraft raptors. We always intended to replace the mounts and units. The skeletons might be replaced as well. I don't want any unit/mount from other mods but Bantu is the one riging.

About the Gohma ladders and rams i just thought they fit better than vanilla - especialy for the spider faction.

About custom settlements - We can't create such and HTW had lots of suitable ones. The reason they were reskinned was to not have them be exact copies of the HTW-ones. I do agree some of them have single-colors which is less good - but others such as the Naga ones (Lanayru) were pretty good and diifferent compared to the ones in HTW. Especially Pannacle Cove.

I'd guess Bantu choose to be more detailed with some of them..

Remember that i only coded them into the game using the IWTE-program - Bantu made the reskins. Neph is still the creator of those particular assets. What i can tell you is that we only use about half of the custom settlements in HTW - and we also has our own Warhammer reskins, customs from Elder Scrolls and such.

And the demand to share assets with us only matters for Warcraft-submods. We haven't said that the Elder Scrolls team needs to share their assets to get something from us as an example. We just want to have a check and balance on submods threatening the main mod and mine and Bantu's work.

Or did you mean animation-skeletons?

We used many animations from various mods - Myth Total War, Warhammer BotET, Akthross etc. I believe Eoghan ported the BotET and Akhtross ones already in the old alpha release. Then i ported the Myth ones - and later the HTW ones. We needed those for similar units as there were no other. And Neph stated he allowed the use even though i can imagine he didn't have a Warcraft in mind and probably thought no mod would have use for most assets. But who knows.

"This is to say *nothing* of the accusations of outright uncredited theft of Warcraft fanart for unit portraits and loading screen backgrounds levelled at your mod team."

The art in the mod is Sulfurion's work so you are actually accusing him of theft.

I don't know why you have something against me specifically. The conflict in this thread is between me and Sulf with Bantu on the sidelines - we are all teammembers.

I don't need to show Sulf respect after his disrespectful post you know.