Morality of abortion

[Gaidin]

Childbirth is a woman’s biological role.

You have fun with that Handmaid's Tale.

[The spartan]

Instead of killing babies.

We teach better contraceptive and sexual education, and if people continue to ignore what they already know, they take responsibility for their actions.

At least here in the US, the people against access to abortion are also against sex education. In many counties across the country, high schools are not allowed to teach condom use due to "abstinence only" education, which is just a glorified "Don't do it" to teenagers.

Childbirth is a woman’s biological role.

Wtf? Does this imply some kind of obligation?

[basics]

I am against abortion for the reasons mentioned before but the very idea that children should not be taught about sex education is simply silly. Knowledge is the most powerful weapon against unwanted or unneeded pregnancy. The only problem I see with that is at what age does one teach them? Have we to wait until they start exploring for themselves, meaning that the horse has bolted and it's too late?

[NorseThing]

There is a difference between the morality question and what should or should not be legal. We have many threads on this question from legal, moral, and religious perspectives. The problem usually comes down to drawing a somewhat arbitrary line. Is the line on the act of sex? Is the line based upon a willing act of sexual reproduction? Where is the line in cases of rape? Where is the line in cases of genetic damage? In the end it is really a legal question that simply overrides all personal concerns that violate the law.

If it is immoral in the general, but in the specific there are so many exceptions to the rule -- perhaps the rule serves no use to guide us on whether abortion is immoral?

To that end, we have a mostly Catholic country, Republic of Ireland, wanting based on polling) to change the law. It may still be immoral to abort on an individual basis, but law needs to be a bit broader than the narrow question. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/europ...ntl/index.html

For me, the question of abortion being immoral may no longer matter, since I am not probably to be placed in a situation where my moral beliefs are going to be tested due to my age and my marriage. Since I am male, I doubt my actions will be crossed against the legal question by definition. I am not saying that morality does not matter. I am suggesting that personal perspectives on morality are often overridden by legal questions and of course religious questions when a person is a member of an organized religious group.

So the short answer -- yes, the act of an abortion in the broadest sense is not moral. In a specific situation it can be a very moral decision.

[Aexodus]

The abortion referendum in Ireland is for abortion on demand, for any reason whatsoever and therefore no reason at all. It’s quite sad.

[NorseThing]

But my point is that this may be separated from the morality question, but that legality seems to override morality except for the personal decisions. Morality is simply a personal value such a belief in a certain God or gods. So perhaps it is sad as you say, but in the end do you think it so sad that the people of Ireland can separate the legal from the moral? I am certain (will perhaps confident) that many Irish support the change but think it immoral in the general sense.

[The spartan]

The abortion referendum in Ireland is for abortion on demand, for any reason whatsoever and therefore no reason at all. It’s quite sad.

What is "abortion on demand"? Like, legally speaking. Is the referendum for abortion with absolutely no restrictions at all? Because I highly doubt that.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Till the 12. week of pregnancy women can free abort, after the 12.week only because of medical reasons.

[Gaidin]

This is Ireland saying they're not going to legislate either the bedroom or the medical decisions. Simple as that.

Now if someone from Ireland doesn't want an abortion because of their own morals, Ireland is perfectly happy to let them go through with the pregnancy. A lot of people seem to miss the context of the word 'choice' in pro-choice.

[Aexodus]

‘If someone doesn’t want to keep their baby, they can just kill it for reasons of convenience’

[Gaidin]

Your fundamental disconnect here, is, as always, hilarious.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Oh it can became very inconvenient, if you are seduced by your married landlord or employer and your sexual prevention( condom, pill, spiral) didn´t worked and your former lover deny fathership...

[Prodromos]

The abortion lobby is campaigning heavily to repeal the 8th Amendment and to legalize abortion in Ireland, but others are also coming forward to express their support the the 8th. One of them is an Irish nurse who had a truly horrifying story to tell.

Caren was working as an agency nurse in Sydney, Australia, when a woman came into her hospital to have an abortion. Her baby had a chromosomal abnormality, and while Caren wasn’t tasked with caring for that woman, she was on her ward. “I went into the sluice room and I saw the baby, a 22-week-old baby boy, in a kidney dish in at the sink where all the clinical waste was flushed,” she said. “He was small but he was perfect. You could see his toes, his hands; he seemed like he had blond hair. He was the full size of the kidney dish and he was alive. I could see the rise and fall of his chest; he was breathing.”

As a young nurse, Caren didn’t know what to do. “Because this was an abortion, I wasn’t allowed to intervene. I couldn’t get help for the baby, I couldn’t hold him or comfort him, or get oxygen for him or ask anyone to help him live,” she recalled. “To see that baby trying to breathe, and nobody helping him, was so distressing and it will haunt me for the rest of my life. I had to leave the sluice room, and I had to leave the baby there and that was the hardest part of all because I felt I had abandoned the baby. He was a child, he was a human being.”

The memory haunted her, but it also haunted the mother of the baby. “That same evening I heard the baby’s mother weeping in her room. She was inconsolable,” she said. “I wondered what she had been told, and if she was advised to abort her baby because he was considered imperfect.”

https://www.liveaction.org/news/iris...-survivor-die/

Just a bundle of cells, not any different from scratching your skin.

[The spartan]

Thanks for the attempted shock value/guilt trip. Truly amazing and certainly not just a cherry picking of stories. Maybe you should be protesting at a clinic?

[basics]

Thanks for the attempted shock value/guilt trip. Truly amazing and certainly not just a cherry picking of stories. Maybe you should be protesting at a clinic?

The Spartan,

What it proves is that Jesus was right in saying that life begins at conception meaning that what is in the womb is a living thing or being. Abortion is another way of making the inconvenient, convenient.

[Aexodus]

What is "abortion on demand"? Like, legally speaking. Is the referendum for abortion with absolutely no restrictions at all? Because I highly doubt that.

You can get an abortion if you think it will cause ‘mental distress’, which is abortion on demand in practice, as we have seen in England where 1 in 5 babies are aborted.

This is Ireland saying they're not going to legislate either the bedroom or the medical decisions. Simple as that.

Now if someone from Ireland doesn't want an abortion because of their own morals, Ireland is perfectly happy to let them go through with the pregnancy. A lot of people seem to miss the context of the word 'choice' in pro-choice.

My point was, where’s the diference in being pro-choice when it comes to killing a child, and killing an unborn baby, hence

’now if someone doesn’t want to kill their infant because of their morals, we’re perfectly happy to let them do so’

Making a moral wrong, legal, doesn’t force you to do it, but that’s not the point. The point is simply that it lets you do something terrible.

[fkizz]

Thanks for the attempted shock value/guilt trip. Truly amazing and certainly not just a cherry picking of stories. Maybe you should be protesting at a clinic?

After 5 months they are already fairly babby formed. It's not about protesting at the clinics, it's about admitting that certain biological facts do exist.

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

The Spartan,

What it proves is that Jesus was right in saying that life begins at conception meaning that what is in the womb is a living thing or being. Abortion is another way of making the inconvenient, convenient.

Jesus never said that... Not even the Catholic Church until the 19th century...
Before that, they followed St. Augustine, who said the soul entered the fetus around the 40 day of pregnancy and that human was only what had a soul. Before that abortion was some kind of anticipated murder.
So there isn't any clear Christian view on that matter.
And by the way a modern secular state should not follow any religion and their moral views in the legislation. And not banning something due criminal law doesn't mean that you have to do it.

[Gaidin]

My point was, where’s the diference in being pro-choice when it comes to killing a child, and killing an unborn baby, hence

’now if someone doesn’t want to kill their infant because of their morals, we’re perfectly happy to let them do so’

Making a moral wrong, legal, doesn’t force you to do it, but that’s not the point. The point is simply that it lets you do something terrible.

Your point was you want to force your beliefs onto everybody via legislation? 'Kay.

[Aexodus]

Your point was you want to force your beliefs onto everybody via legislation? 'Kay.

Do you believe murder is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Do you believe incest is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Do you believe pedophilia is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Do you believe abortion on demand is wrong? Maybe you do maybe you don’t, but it’s no different to wanting anything else that is morally reprehensible in your opinion to be illegal

Otherwise don’t make such mundane statements.