This was a real fracturing point in 1700s and 1800s, were abortions were more banalized (despite higher birthrate) and times were more brutal, the condoms and pill we have nowadays would seem some kind of mythological high technology.
In a time where both condom, pill and day after pill are avaliable to literally anyone, it's a different league.
It will be seen that, as used, the word Fascism is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
Uh, I'm sorry they're not. Rights are a legalistic framework created and impressed upon individuals by the standing of said legal document. They are not inherent to the process of being. There are runaway consequences with your view and your political views would be massively indicted if we were to follow them through their logical consequences. For example, feeding children, housing children and raising children are a significant expenditure. If the individual giving birth can do none of the aforementioend who do you suppose does it? I don't suppose you support social welfare programs?
Yes. Number one, children do not have the same rights as adults. That's an absolute truth in the US. Number two, infants have even fewer rights. Number three, there's no plausible argument that we should impress upon a mass of cells it's own legal standing which simultaneously does not give rights to say a kidney or the pounds of skin which slough off of you on a daily basis. Traditionally Viability and Birth were used because they offer a very cut and dry answer to what is black and white when we're talking about what is actually little more than a shade of grey. In most countries and states you do not gain full access to your rights until 16, or 18, or 21, or 25.
Until you provide for the infrastructure required to raise the children in absence of forcing someone to carry it to term (Artificial womb + ample social funding for the appropriate raising of children) your point is rendered moot. More relevantly, the use of contraception is often not something any child is taught about in the US. Contraception costs a significant amount of money and sex is the highest biologically driven instinct we have. Animals will starve and maim themselves for access to sex. We are also animals albeit more aware of our situation. More importantly children raised in an environment absent of consistent care offered by parents perform significantly worse than those who aren't. I don't suppose you also support gay marriage, one of the biggest arguments for which was the ample surplus of orphans and the number of gay couples who were ready and willing to care for them but couldn't because many states prevented gay couple adoption through requiring marriage.
Last edited by Elfdude; May 18, 2018 at 02:09 PM.
Elfdude, if someone isn’t capable of having a child, then they don’t get pregnant.
The only right we’re talking bout here is the right to life to life.Yes. Number one, children do not have the same rights as adults. That's an absolute truth in the US.
A zygote is a separate human organism. Therefore human rights apply.Number two, infants have even fewer rights. Number three, there's no plausible argument that we should impress upon a mass of cells it's own legal standing which simultaneously does not give rights to say a kidney or the pounds of skin which slough off of you on a daily basis. Traditionally Viability and Birth were used because they offer a very cut and dry answer to what is black and white when we're talking about what is actually little more than a shade of grey. In most countries and states you do not gain full access to your rights until 16, or 18, or 21, or 25.
To compare that to a skin cell is quite incoherent.
It is not ‘grey’. A human life is not a grey area.
Oh really. I was unaware that parenting wasn’t actually the responsibility of parents themselves.Until you provide for the infrastructure required to raise the children in absence of forcing someone to carry it to term (Artificial womb + ample social funding for the appropriate raising of children) your point is rendered moot.
What? Everyone knows what contraception is by the time they come of the age of consent. And they know what sex far before that.More relevantly, the use of contraception is often not something any child is taught about in the US.
Condoms cost $0.50 each. Odd you don’t seem to know know that...Contraception costs a significant amount of money
And unprotected sex is not an inevitability, it is a conscious choice.and sex is the highest biologically driven instinct we have.
I hold humans living in a society to a higher standard than wild animals, actually.Animals will starve and maim themselves for access to sex.
So we should just kill them then. Gotcha.We are also animals albeit more aware of our situation. More importantly children raised in an environment absent of consistent care offered by parents perform significantly worse than those who aren't.
What does this segment have to do at all with abortion.I don't suppose you also support gay marriage, one of the biggest arguments for which was the ample surplus of orphans and the number of gay couples who were ready and willing to care for them but couldn't because many states prevented gay couple adoption through requiring marriage.
Also, I’m fundamentally opposed to gay adoption as it happens.
Because humans are perfect. Got it. So when the real world starts to resemble this I'll take your points seriously, or do you actually have a solution to get there?
Right, and this right is not recognized to fetuses who are inviable outside of the womb. You earn it when you're no longer an obligate parasite.
No, you want rights to apply. Currently no court that I know recognizes this argument.
Hardly.
You're just arguing semantics, call it what you will, a human life is not recognized as human until the whole obligate parasite phase is over.
So, your solution to killing a mass of cells is to force people who neither want to nor likely have the resources to raise children? That couldn't backfire in any possible way! Oh, romania called and they wanted me to tell you about the human trafficking black market which occurred where people literally sold their BORN children into slavery as an alternative because the government refused to cover them, charities had no space and they had no either no means or no interest in providing for the children themselves. Your child can be kidnapped today in a suburb and sold into a thriving black market as a sex slave because of the stupid decisions a country made half a century ago. Is that what you really propose?
That is madness.
Contraception is not taught in the US. So no, you're wrong. The easiest way to get rid of the necessity of abortion is to teach (thoroughly mind you) contraceptive use and give contraception away freely. Pass that and we'll talk about abortion. Otherwise sorry, I'm not fond of sentencing someone to 9 months of pregnancy because they were dumb.
Condoms in the US are rarely that inexpensive, grabbing them at the grocery store is usually about 5 bucks for 3. Even if someone has condoms they're terribly easy to up. I work in pediatrics, my entire role is working with children. As a doctor I can assure you go to any reproductive health clinic and they'll laugh at your naive assumptions about reproductive health.
Right, and mistakes are not inevitable? Oh they are... well that one was easy.
As do I. Nice attempt at a deflection though.
That's the short of it.
So you're happy with the unintentional consequences of your decision. Funny given your views on abortion.
You don't say? Children are kidnapped in suburbs because people with views like these got in control once. It's incredibly convenient that you don't get to take responsibility for your crappy viewpoints but you're more than happy to advocate for forcing someone to take responsibility for their own. Hypocrisy is a good look I suppose.
Elfdude, I believe there are consequences for your own conscious actions.
Actually, it is a right recognised in many American states.Right, and this right is not recognized to fetuses who are inviable outside of the womb. You earn it when you're no longer an obligate parasite.
You don’t know a lot off courts thenNo, you want rights to apply. Currently no court that I know recognizes this argument.
Are you really saying it’s valid to compare a zygote to a skin cell. That is incredible.Hardly.
Are you saying that a fetus is not human right up until the day of birth.You're just arguing semantics, call it what you will, a human life is not recognized as human until the whole obligate parasite phase is over.
As someone who lives in a country where abortion is illegal, I can assure you that this does not happen.So, your solution to killing a mass of cells is to force people who neither want to nor likely have the resources to raise children? That couldn't backfire in any possible way! Oh, romania called and they wanted me to tell you about the human trafficking black market which occurred where people literally sold their BORN children into slavery as an alternative because the government refused to cover them, charities had no space and they had no either no means or no interest in providing for the children themselves. Your child can be kidnapped today in a suburb and sold into a thriving black market as a sex slave because of the stupid decisions a country made half a century ago. Is that what you really propose?
That is madness.
Then it would seem there is quite an easy obvious solution then. Also I was unaware we were having a US-centric conversation. The morality of abortion is universal, and contraception is taught in the majority of western countries.Contraception is not taught in the US. So no, you're wrong.
Whats with all the collectivisation mate? Contraception is cheap chill out.The easiest way to get rid of the necessity of abortion is to teach (thoroughly mind you) contraceptive use and give contraception away freely.
It’s their own decision to get pregnant. Come on, when people have sex they know what they’re doing.Pass that and we'll talk about abortion. Otherwise sorry, I'm not fond of sentencing someone to 9 months of pregnancy because they were dumb.
So they’re inexpensive then.Condoms in the US are rarely that inexpensive, grabbing them at the grocery store is usually about 5 bucks for 3.
Then that’s their fault for being incompetent with condoms isn’t it.Even if someone has condoms they're terribly easy to up. I work in pediatrics, my entire role is working with children. As a doctor I can assure you go to any reproductive health clinic and they'll laugh at your naive assumptions about reproductive health.
I was unaware that having a child’s was the collective decision of society, therefore society as a collective should bear the consequence of it. Seems i didn’t get that memo. I must applaud you for your ability to relentlessly collectivise individuals.Right, and mistakes are not inevitable? Oh they are... well that one was easy.
*snip*
So you're happy with the unintentional consequences of your decision. Funny given your views on abortion.
The fundamental premise of your argument is that actions should not have consequences, and that people should have a get out of jail card in life. That’s just something where we’re gonna have to fundamentally disagree my friend.
We only lifted the ban on gay adpotion four years ago, I can assure you, we survivedYou don't say? Children are kidnapped in suburbs because people with views like these got in control once. It's incredibly convenient that you don't get to take responsibility for your crappy viewpoints but you're more than happy to advocate for forcing someone to take responsibility for their own. Hypocrisy is a good look I suppose.
If someone can’t raise a kid, that is not my fault. The only thing ‘forcing’ them to have a baby is their own good/bad judgement and ultimately free will.
Last edited by Aexodus; May 18, 2018 at 07:52 PM.
I would suggest not accepting Elfdude's assertions as factual. See, for example, here re contraception not being taught:
https://www.guttmacher.org/news-rele...ation-now-past
Re condoms:
https://www.walmart.com/browse/976760_1414629_1258934
https://www.luckysupermarkets.com/shop#/?q=condom
Last edited by Infidel144; May 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM.
One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
Gaidin,
Explain the difference between what is about to be born and what has been born? Is it not true that babies have been born alive to dead mothers? The red herring here is that life doesn't begin at conception for as Jesus implied, it does but then what does He know as He is only our Creator? Did John called the Baptist not jump inside Elizabeth when Mary entered their home. Oh yes that baby knew what Mary was carrying. Humanity wants all the pleasures of life as long as nothing gets in the way but life is life is life.
One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.
Not only did you post a link which confirmed my costs (btw few teens have access to a credit card to buy online). You also redoubled my point by pointing out that 1 in 3 males and 1 in 5 females recieve no education whatsoever on the subject.
On top of this:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...implant-teens/
I'm sorry, but I've seen many examples of contraceptive curriculum and the reality is that there's not nearly enough time to go into detail that is necessary to properly explain these subjects to pre-adults. There's easily 5x as much information, practical training and specifics given in the majority of the western world which is entirely absent in American Curriculum. Add this to the fact that most teachers until HS (which you only have to take for 1 term in 4 years in most school districts) are not trained in the subject the outcomes are expectantly dismal.
Thanks for reinforcing my point.
As for Aexodus,
You admit people make mistakes, you just think they should be held accountable. The problem is that a human is not an isolated entity or a punishment. A human has drastic consequences on the society around it. Raising a child well is very damn important and the consequences of failure to do so have terrible effects on society and are relatively easy to ignore as a parent. Furthermore that doesn't address the question of whether or not those mistakes should punish their children.
Last edited by Elfdude; May 20, 2018 at 05:06 PM.
Interesting, so a box of 36 condoms for about 15 dollars or a box of 12 for about $7 confirms your assertionthat condoms are rarely as inexpensive as .50 cents each (which is what Aexodus said).
While your "point" was: "Contraception is not taught in the US. So no, you're wrong."
Not that 1/3 of males and 1/5 of females are not taught about contraception, but that no one is.
That is, you were lying, and are now trying to cover up that by lying some more. You do that a lot.
Last edited by Infidel144; May 21, 2018 at 06:20 AM.