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Thread: Morality of abortion

  1. #181
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    The Spartan,

    So, who pays for abortions that are done on the NHS? Is this not also a drain on all taxpayers especially when the NHS is desperate for funding for other things? We talk of choice but only when it suits us. Of course it is medically important to make sure that the one having an abortion is kept safe and well but the whole thing is just getting out of hand. By that I mean that if a girl wants to have sex but no child she should use her choice in making sure she doesn't get pregnant before indulging in sex.

  2. #182
    Sogdog's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Spartan,

    So, who pays for abortions that are done on the NHS? Is this not also a drain on all taxpayers especially when the NHS is desperate for funding for other things? We talk of choice but only when it suits us. Of course it is medically important to make sure that the one having an abortion is kept safe and well but the whole thing is just getting out of hand. By that I mean that if a girl wants to have sex but no child she should use her choice in making sure she doesn't get pregnant before indulging in sex.

    It takes two to have sex basics. The man must also take responsibility in not getting her pregnant by using protection. A woman falling pregnant not by choice is not only her fault. 50% of the fault lies with the man too. I have noticed too often how adults do NOT like to take responsibility for their actions. In our (unfortunately) patriarchal society the woman is blamed too often whilst thew man is given a free ticket. This has to stop.

  3. #183
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    The man is given a free ticket? Are you joking? Not like for example they pay 85% of child support, or are the breadwinner in many families. No, they don’t get a ‘free ticket’. This a complete trivilisation of fatherhood.

    You know, it’s equally the woman’s responsibility to ensure protection is used.
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  4. #184

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Spartan,

    So, who pays for abortions that are done on the NHS? Is this not also a drain on all taxpayers especially when the NHS is desperate for funding for other things? We talk of choice but only when it suits us. Of course it is medically important to make sure that the one having an abortion is kept safe and well but the whole thing is just getting out of hand. By that I mean that if a girl wants to have sex but no child she should use her choice in making sure she doesn't get pregnant before indulging in sex.
    Huh? I pay taxes for things I don't like all the time, that is part of the deal.

    I think women (and men) should be safe and take precautions before sex, and many do. However, lets not pretend people don't make mistakes, especially when it comes to sex. Sometimes, a guy doesn't pull out when he said he would (thanks hormones) or some other form of poor practice, forcing a child be carried to term because of that seems extreme and unhealthy. I am down with the idea that we should push better sexual education, which in turn lowers the number of abortions. Ideally, no one is getting pregnant unintentionally and abortion would be unnecessary.

    EDIT: Also, could I get a clarification on the pro-life attitude to in vitro fertilization I brought up before? It seems like a massive gap in logic.
    Last edited by The spartan; May 29, 2018 at 01:33 PM.
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  5. #185
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sogdog View Post
    It takes two to have sex basics. The man must also take responsibility in not getting her pregnant by using protection. A woman falling pregnant not by choice is not only her fault. 50% of the fault lies with the man too. I have noticed too often how adults do NOT like to take responsibility for their actions. In our (unfortunately) patriarchal society the woman is blamed too often whilst thew man is given a free ticket. This has to stop.
    Sogdog,

    Completely agree.

    The Spartan,

    Yes but most don't give a darn because they have to satisfy their lust and why? Probably because they've done it so often and nothing has happened so why not carry on. As for the in vitro fertilization I personally haven't read or heard anything about what the church's attitude is towards it. The Scriptures are silent on it probably because they were written when such a thing wasn't thought of, at least to my knowledge.

  6. #186

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Spartan,

    Yes but most don't give a darn because they have to satisfy their lust and why? Probably because they've done it so often and nothing has happened so why not carry on.
    How the heck would you know? Other people's sexual conduct is none of your business.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As for the in vitro fertilization I personally haven't read or heard anything about what the church's attitude is towards it. The Scriptures are silent on it probably because they were written when such a thing wasn't thought of, at least to my knowledge.
    Which church? There are a lot of them. The point being that if the premise is human life begins at conception, far more fertilized eggs are destroyed in the in vitro fertilization industry than due to abortion. A quick rundown of how it works: multiple eggs are harvested from the woman and all are fertilized in a controlled environment, the 'healthiest' one is selected for implantation in the woman's womb while the rest are discarded. However, in vitro fertilization doesn't get near the amount of hate that abortion gets, my personal guess would be because it doesn't involve sexual acts which is an understated motivation for pro-lifers (hence the judgement on sexuality that you just mentioned).
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  7. #187
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    The Spartan,

    History doesn't change and nor does the lust in men. If you've ever worked in factories or the military or any other form of business the one thing that takes the focus off the job is talk of women inside or outside of these occupations. Look at your TV and see how much sex sells, why? Because men for the best part dream of having as many females as they can if it were possible.

    As for the industry you are trying to argue for it is minuscule compared to the number of abortions that take place and a woman's egg or eggs are only that. Make union with sperm and we have a different scenario which the purpose of is to bring a life into existence for someone who cannot naturally have a baby. If you are inferring that when the union is successful that baby becomes an excuse for harvesting parts which happens at abortions, what then the women who carries such a union? What kind of person would do such a thing?

  8. #188

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Spartan,

    History doesn't change and nor does the lust in men.
    I find this hilarious. And naive. For someone who spent 80 percent of his post talking about how much a pregnancy requires both a man and a woman I love how you just blamed lust on only the man. Go sit in the corner and contemplate reality.
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  9. #189
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    I mean, the bible is pretty explicit. A fetus becomes a human when god breathes into it's nostrils and it begins to breathe. (Genesis 2:7) There's nothing in the christian the word of god which seems to imply that abortion is prohibited before this point. The definition of when it's ok to abort (about 20 weeks in the US unless medical emergency) is pretty directly related to this time period.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    I mean, the bible is pretty explicit. A fetus becomes a human when god breathes into it's nostrils and it begins to breathe. (Genesis 2:7) There's nothing in the christian the word of god which seems to imply that abortion is prohibited before this point. The definition of when it's ok to abort (about 20 weeks in the US unless medical emergency) is pretty directly related to this time period.
    If you want to go that way you could pick St. Thomas Aquinas. He considers life enters the fetus at least a few weeks later.
    Aquinas believed in the progression of life from a “vegetable”-like, unanimated state to an animal life and finally to a human, animated state. Summa Theologica offers no defense of abortion as a permissible act at any stage in the pregnancy, but it does specify that once the fetus has become animated (when he believed ensoulment of the living human being took place), it is homicide to kill it. This measure of ensoulment or delayed hominization (the belief that the embryo or fetus was not a human life with a soul until a particular event after conception) is typically equated with the stage at which quickening took place—defined by Aristotle as forty days for boys and eighty days after conception for girls.
    https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/st-thom...as-c-1225-1274

    Kinda the elephant in the room in this debate
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  11. #191
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Most, if not all, birth control involves some technical form of abortion. This is why the Catholic Church has opposed birth control. So for those who feel birth control is morally okay, how then is abortion morally wrong? I know there is the bit about a time line, but this is pretty much making an arbitrary decision.

    My understanding of morality is that arbitrary decisions are allowed, but how is really right to decide such a line for others? This moral question still comes down to individual decisions. A bit like faith in a God or other aspects of morality. This is why we separate out of the morality dilemma by passing laws and being a part of the rule of law. This bypasses the question of morality even if the legislators and electorate pass and debate such questions based upon morality.

  12. #192
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    I mean, the bible is pretty explicit. A fetus becomes a human when god breathes into it's nostrils and it begins to breathe. (Genesis 2:7) There's nothing in the christian the word of god which seems to imply that abortion is prohibited before this point. The definition of when it's ok to abort (about 20 weeks in the US unless medical emergency) is pretty directly related to this time period.
    Elfdude,

    If God can impute sin into the egg at conception which Jesus says happens then that baby must be alive for Him to do so. Now regarding the breath of God this act is when the baby is separated from its mother because it has to breath independently from then on. However when it is still attached to the mother everything about that little being functions just as we do as scans prove. Can you put hand on heart and say this is not true and if it is true then abortion is quite wrong?

  13. #193
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    God does not impute sin into anything. Original Sin is a property of the bloodline itself. A bloodline which is not responsible for or guilty of original sin until the age of accountability which is about 13 or 21 depending on how you read the bible. I.E. if a baby dies, they are automatically forgiven regardless of accepting the word. Scans also don't prove that. At about 20 weeks maybe but it becomes significantly grey the further back we go.

  14. #194

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    An unborn baby is only a human being at age 40 days but not 39 days. An unborn baby is only a human being when his mother wants him. An unborn baby is a human being only when his father isn't a criminal. An unborn baby is only a human being when his birth won't risk increasing crime rates. An unborn baby is a human being only when people are willing to care for him.

    etc

    All these mental gymnastics just to avoid the fact an unborn baby is alive and human, and that murdering innocent humans is wrong.

    It's like 1930s Germany in here. "Killing people? Not at all. We're simply removing parasites from society. It's social hygiene."

    Or 1860. "My body my choice", is really just the modern version of "My my property", which is notable because most abortions involve black babies and other "undesirables." The Progressives just changed their strategy from lynching blacks to killing them before they're even born. When leftists accuse conservatives of racism, remember what another leftist [supposedly] once advised, to "accuse your enemy of that which you are guilty."

    Richard Spencer, the keynote speaker in Charlottesville and the central figure of the alt-right movement, finds abortion useful. He has explained that abortion will help to bring about his vision of an elite, white America: “The people who are having abortions are generally very often Black or Hispanic or from very poor circumstances.” The people whom Spencer wants to reproduce, he says, “are using abortion when you have a situation like Down Syndrome.” It is only “the unintelligent and blacks and Hispanics,” he claims, “who use abortion as birth control.”

    On this understanding, abortion is a form of eugenics, helping to shape the population to produce more desirables and fewer undesirables. This is why Spencer supports the practice — not because he believes that it is a moral good or that women are owed the right to choose, but because he views it as a morally neutral tool that improves the American gene pool by making it whiter and richer.

    Spencer has specifically contrasted his position on abortion with that of National Review’s Ramesh Ponnuru. Spencer mocks Ponnuru for undertaking a “human rights crusade,” built on the assumption that “every being that is human has a right to life.” Spencer, of course, doesn’t believe that is true.

    He has openly mocked conservatives who worry about a “black genocide” or “how [abortion] is destroying black communities.” He knows that an estimated 75 percent of women who have abortions are poor. He knows that black women, receiving an outsize 36 percent of all American abortions, are almost five times as likely to terminate their pregnancies as white women. Nothing could make him happier.

    Also secure in that knowledge is the pseudonymous alt-righter Aylmer Fisher, who writes in Spencer’s Radix Journal. “It is important we not fall prey to the pro-life temptation,” Fisher proclaims. Her reasoning is predictable: “The only ones who can’t [avoid an unwanted pregnancy] are the least intelligent and responsible members of society: women who are disproportionately Black, Hispanic, and poor.”

    This sort of racism is largely foreign to today’s pro-choice movement. Its members genuinely believe that a fetus either does not count as human life or does not carry moral value. The task of pro-lifers is to convince them on the science and ethics, and show that abortion preys on women more than it empowers them.

    But abortion hits racial minorities harder than any other group, and this fact has not been incidental to its history in America. As National Review’s Kevin Williamson detailed extensively in a cover story earlier this year, progressive eugenics was “the intellectual ferment out of which rose the American birth-control movement.”

    Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, wanted “to make the coming generation into such physically fit, mentally capable, socially alert individuals as are the ideal of a democracy.” In other words, she sought to improve the human race.

    However, she faced an obstacle — the same one that so troubles Richard Spencer and his acolytes: “The feebleminded are notoriously prolific in reproduction,” wrote Sanger in Woman and the New Race. This would be a problem with a solution to which Sanger devoted her life’s work: controlling the birth rate, especially among the “unfit” (read: the poor, blacks, and Catholic immigrants).

    This goal brought her into contact with Clarence C. Little, the president of the American Eugenics Society (AES), and a founding board member of the American Birth Control League (ABCL), which eventually became Planned Parenthood. Little’s two associations are not coincidental: The ABCL, founded by Sanger in 1921, even shared office space with the AES. Moreover, as Williamson notes, “Little believed that birth-control policy should be constructed in such a way as to protect ‘Yankee stock’ — referred to in Sanger’s own work as ‘unmixed native white parentage.’”

    Linda Gordon, author of The Moral Property of Woman: A History of Birth-Control Politics, examined the ABCL’s in-house publication, the Birth Control Review. She reports that, “A content analysis of the Birth Control Review showed that by the late 1920s only 4.9 percent of its articles in that decade had any concern with women’s self-determination.” Furthermore, “It was Sanger’s courting of doctors and eugenists that moved the ABCL away from both the Left and liberalism, away from both socialist-feminist impulses and civil liberties arguments toward an integrated population ‘program for the whole society.’”
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...nicist-legacy/





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  15. #195

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Have you missed the part about how most people throughout human history don't agree with you? The concept that any of various stages of fetal development count, fully, as human and that ending the pregnancy is tantamount to murder is very much a minority opinion.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  16. #196
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    God does not impute sin into anything. Original Sin is a property of the bloodline itself. A bloodline which is not responsible for or guilty of original sin until the age of accountability which is about 13 or 21 depending on how you read the bible. I.E. if a baby dies, they are automatically forgiven regardless of accepting the word. Scans also don't prove that. At about 20 weeks maybe but it becomes significantly grey the further back we go.
    Elfdude,

    What you are saying is not Scriptural at all. Jesus says that we are conceived in sin as does David and so the imputation is genetic yet still from God. Where does it say in Scripture that babies if they die before maturity they are automatically saved? To be saved a person must be brought to repentance by conviction thus able to appreciate his or her own sin and that the work of the Holy Spirit so at what point does a baby realise this? At what point in a child's life is he or she aware of their sin as at no point can a sinner enter heaven without a Saviour? I think that in every Scriptural case where a child becomes a chosen person that was by God's choosing as in the case of John the Baptist or Jacob among others but these were exceptions to show the love and power of God. So, if all babies are exempt from sin at what point do they become sinners? Jesus our God and Saviour says conception.

  17. #197
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    @Dr Legend This what I don’t get. A baby isnt human unless it’s viable, etc etc etc. The premise that abortion is wrong comes from the fact that it impedes on an individual’s right to life. If the unborn are human, then they have these rights. It’s quite simple. A lot of people don’t seem to know either, that it was the communists in the Soviet Union that first brought about abortion.
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  18. #198

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    @Dr Legend This what I don’t get. A baby isnt human unless it’s viable, etc etc etc. The premise that abortion is wrong comes from the fact that it impedes on an individual’s right to life. If the unborn are human, then they have these rights. It’s quite simple. A lot of people don’t seem to know either, that it was the communists in the Soviet Union that first brought about abortion.
    I don't think the individual has the right to decide just by themselves what is "human" and what is not. That should be a societal decission, not an individual right to decide.

    The Soviet Union did not create abortions, they only created at best the moderm medical abortion. There were abortions before the Soviet Union, but the methods used were crude, unreliable, and dangerous. Ancient societies like the Romans didn't regard infants as human either, so they had no problem with killing the infant after it was born, that was the ancient method of abortion.

    Wnether legal or not, women throughout history have killed unwanted babies, and still do sometimes, even though there are legal alternatives to get rid of unwanted babies. Don't quite understand why, when you get an abortion that perfectly legal, or just give the kid up for adoption if you don't want to raise it yourself. Unlike for fathers, I don't think there is any legal requirement for a woman to raise a child if she doesn't want to. But women do.

    (For the fathers, they are legally required to support the child if the motner decides she wants to raise the child herself, and choses to demand child support.)

  19. #199

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    A lot of people don’t seem to know either, that it was the communists in the Soviet Union that first brought about abortion.
    That isn't even close to true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I don't think the individual has the right to decide just by themselves what is "human" and what is not. That should be a societal decission, not an individual right to decide.
    Essentially this.

    I could be convinced (and so could others) to support the pro-life ideology if there was the proper supporting evidence that abortion was indeed tantamount to murder, but I am not getting anything more convincing that "It is obvious, duh!" which isn't swaying me. I still haven't heard any secular ethics guidelines that support the notion, nor a scientific argument that a fertilized embryo exhibits human qualities. Aexodus keeps asking us to take his word for it; they are fulling people with rights.
    Last edited by The spartan; June 05, 2018 at 12:07 PM.
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  20. #200
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    That isn't even close to true.
    Soviet Union first country to make abortion legal on woman’s request, 1920.

    Essentially this.

    I could be convinced (and so could others) to support the pro-life ideology if there was the proper supporting evidence that abortion was indeed tantamount to murder, but I am not getting anything more convincing that "It is obvious, duh!" which isn't swaying me. I still haven't heard any secular ethics guidelines that support the notion, nor a scientific argument that a fertilized embryo exhibits human qualities. Aexodus keeps asking us to take his word for it; they are fulling people with rights.
    I’ve posted multiple scientific sources indicating that the unborn are indeed human, perhaps you didn’t read them or ignored them.

    If the right to life is indeed universal to all humans, and cannot be infringed upon because of arbitrary and immutable characteristics (race, sex, age etc) then how is it moral to abort a foetus without good and substantial reason.

    It essentially boils down to whether or not you believe a foetus is human, yes. All I can ask is: if it’s not human from conception, then at what point in the pregnancy does it become so?
    Last edited by Aexodus; June 05, 2018 at 03:30 PM.
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