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Thread: Morality of abortion

  1. #1201

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    When you are making statements about what makes for a true Christian and what doesn't, you are determining the traditional moral framework of Christianity.
    I'm merely reciting the position taken by the world's largest and most historic Christian institutions. Favouring the use of abortion as an alternative means of birth control is largely incongruent with traditional moral framework(s) of Christianity as outlined by its most significant and historic institutions. This is an uncontroversial statement which does not imply a determination on my part on the subject of Christ's elect.

    And I am not too familiar with the Eastern Orthodoxy, but it seems as if the Papacy and the Church of England are at least ok with the idea of democratic nations being able to decide on abortion rights themselves, unlike the "Christians" in this thread.
    Matthew 22:21 provides a clear scriptural basis for the separation of church and state (as was discussed here). I have not read any person in this thread expressing a view that supports the replacement of secular governance with religious rule.

    And I never mentioned advocacy
    I used the term advocacy to refer to the promotion of "abortion on demand". The purpose was to highlight that the church treats both the "sin" (in this case unnecessary abortion) and the encouragement to "sin" as being one and the same.

    I don't care if it is something Christians actually want, it is just something they have to accept in our modern world. I care about not having zealots impose their will on peoples with different beliefs.
    Voicing an opposition to abortion as an alternative to birth control is not synonymous with zealots imposing their beliefs.

    It would be insane if the Pope started making demands of nations about their abortion rights, people would tell the papacy to right off.
    Domestic opposition to legislation or legislative proposals is not comparable to an external institution with no sovereign authority outside of its own domain "making demands of nations".

    See, anti-abortion people seem to take pride in their Christian roots for wanting to see an end to abortion without realizing it is a detriment to their cause.
    The source of a Christian's moral reasoning cannot be a "detriment" to the causes inspired by Christian moral reasoning.

    Do you know how suspicious it is that practically all pro-life movements are linked to Christian (perhaps some Muslims as well) churches? It heavily implies that there is a specific, cultural reason for opposing abortion rather than a general moral one. If it was just a general moral belief, you would have a much more diverse backing.
    It isn't suspicious that the single most historically influential source of moral reasoning in Europe and the Americas (ie. Christ and His church) is associated with political movements concerned with moral and ethical questions. Christians do not oppose abortion (with limited exceptions) for "cultural reason[s]", they instead support the right to life for all human beings.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; Yesterday at 11:04 PM.

  2. #1202

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I'm merely reciting the position taken by the world's largest and most historic Christian institutions. Favouring the use of abortion as an alternative means of birth control is largely incongruent with traditional moral framework(s) of Christianity as outlined by its most significant and historic institutions. This is an uncontroversial statement which does not imply a determination on my part on the subject of Christ's elect.
    That's not what was being discussed. The position being pushed by those claiming Christian morality here is that abortion by choice should be illegal after conception. Full stop. And you are still trying to pass of your understanding of the issue as "traditional moral framework" when I have no reason to trust you are an authority of the matter. Polling, even in the religiously identitarian US, indicates that many, many Christians do not agree abortion by choice should be disallowed after conception. I don't think that is near as popular of a position with Christians overall as you are making it appear.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Matthew 22:21 provides a clear scriptural basis for the separation of church and state (as was discussed here). I have not read any person in this thread expressing a view that supports the replacement of secular governance with religious rule.
    If you want the choice of abortion made illegal by the government, and citing the Bible as reasoning, you are trying to supplant a secular law with a religious one.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I used the term advocacy to refer to the promotion of "abortion on demand". The purpose was to highlight that the church treats both the "sin" (in this case unnecessary abortion) and the encouragement to "sin" as being one and the same.
    I don't know of many people that promote "abortion on demand". This reminds me of the "pro-abortion" slur; people who want to defend the right to abortion are not typically going around telling people they should get abortions. The typically let individuals decide for themselves. I also resent the fact that Christians expect me to bow to their interpretations of what is sinful and not. Come back with something that doesn't require divine command theory, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Voicing an opposition to abortion as an alternative to birth control is not synonymous with zealots imposing their beliefs.
    Then you aren't on the same page with the guys here that want it to be illegal to get an abortion by choice after conception.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Domestic opposition to legislation or legislative proposals is not comparable to an external institution with no sovereign authority outside of its own domain "making demands of nations".
    Good, then the pro-choice people should feel safe as they are almost always in the majority in most of the West. That doesn't apply to the US, obviously, where there are fervent organizations doing everything they can legally and extra-legally who want to impose their will on the majority through law.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The source of a Christian's moral reasoning cannot be a "detriment" to the causes inspired by Christian moral reasoning.
    Not the Christian moral reasoning, the cultural representation. Again, it isn't all Christians who believe abortion by choice is wrong, just certain groups of them. The groups tend to be...socially traditional, lets say, which makes sense when you look at the countries that have severe restrictions on abortion. It makes me wonder if the motivation to disallow abortion is really something else besides "protecting unborn lives" or promoting scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It isn't suspicious that the single most historically influential source of moral reasoning in Europe and the Americas (ie. Christ and His church) is associated with political movements concerned with moral and ethical questions.
    It isn't "Christians" though, it is just some of them. That is the suspicious part. And seeing how regional the opposition to abortion is in the US, I would be willing to bet money on it being a cultural issue. I can even put down a pretty good predictor for these regions (even for outside the US): what is the regional opinion on open female sexuality? If it is negative, then you have a strong correlation between that and demands for restricting abortion. If it is positive or people don't care, you will see a far less demand for limiting abortion access. Seems to be a better predictor than "being Christian", anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Christians do not oppose abortion (with limited exceptions) for "cultural reason[s]", they instead support the right to life for all human beings.
    You mean Christians like yourself? Because it isn't Christians in general. You keep trying to pass off "your Christianity" as if it is "all Christianity". Classic move.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  3. #1203

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    That's not what was being discussed. The position being pushed by those claiming Christian morality here is that abortion by choice should be illegal after conception. Full stop. And you are still trying to pass of your understanding of the issue as "traditional moral framework" when I have no reason to trust you are an authority of the matter. Polling, even in the religiously identitarian US, indicates that many, many Christians do not agree abortion by choice should be disallowed after conception. I don't think that is near as popular of a position with Christians overall as you are making it appear.
    As I've made clear, I'm not disclosing my personal understanding of the Bible or scriptural doctrine: I'm reciting the official views of the largest Christian institutions on earth. That a significant number of people who identify as Christian currently hold views which contradict the views of the major churches is a concern for organized religion, but not one which says much about the traditional position of Christianity on the issue of abortion.

    I would, however, like to hear a self-identifying pro-choice Christian explain how abortions on demand can be morally reconciled with the teachings of Christ. I have seen scriptural justifications for not treating parents who choose to abort a child as criminals (a position I agree with), though not one which justifies unnecessary abortion.

    If you want the choice of abortion made illegal by the government, and citing the Bible as reasoning, you are trying to supplant a secular law with a religious one.
    The secular world can legislate on the basis of any moral reasoning it chooses (including Christian reasoning) and still be secular. We don't say that the United States is theocratic because many (if not most) of its voters and legislators are influenced by religious reasoning in their decision making. What undermines secularism is when the institution of the church adopts a direct legislative role in government.

    I don't know of many people that promote "abortion on demand".This reminds me of the "pro-abortion" slur; people who want to defend the right to abortion are not typically going around telling people they should get abortions. The typically let individuals decide for themselves.
    It was the most erudite phrase I could conjure to describe the availability of abortion for any reason and at almost any time during a pregnancy. Henceforth I'll try to use the phrase "abortion by choice" (as you have) in our interactions.

    I also resent the fact that Christians expect me to bow to their interpretations of what is sinful and not.
    I don't expect you to bow to the church's interpretation of what is sinful or not.

    Come back with something that doesn't require divine command theory, please.
    Many months ago I offered you an argument which was not grounded in religious reasoning and you rejected it on the basis that an unborn human is not a person.

    Then you aren't on the same page with the guys here that want it to be illegal to get an abortion by choice after conception.
    The people posting on this forum are voicing an opinion. I have not witnessed any imposition beyond that.

    Good, then the pro-choice people should feel safe as they are almost always in the majority in most of the West.
    I don't think anyone has argued that pro-choice advocates are legitimate targets for violence or abuse: I certainly don't think they should be.

    That doesn't apply to the US, obviously, where there are fervent organizations doing everything they can legally and extra-legally who want to impose their will on the majority through law.
    That reads more like a complaint against the mechanics of government than anything else.

    Not the Christian moral reasoning, the cultural representation. Again, it isn't all Christians who believe abortion by choice is wrong, just certain groups of them. The groups tend to be...socially traditional, lets say, which makes sense when you look at the countries that have severe restrictions on abortion. It makes me wonder if the motivation to disallow abortion is really something else besides "protecting unborn lives" or promoting scripture.
    Their motivation is their adherence to the traditional teachings of the world's most prominent Christian institutions - which would correlate with my claim that the traditional moral framework of Christianity prohibits "abortion by choice".

    It isn't "Christians" though, it is just some of them. That is the suspicious part.
    As a person who doesn't often consider the tenants of my own faith thoroughly, allow me to claim that it isn't suspicious that some people consider the tenants of their faith more thoroughly than others. And to reiterate, if a Christian who does not oppose abortion "by choice" wants to offer a scriptural rationale for their view, I'd be interested to hear it.

    And seeing how regional the opposition to abortion is in the US, I would be willing to bet money on it being a cultural issue. I can even put down a pretty good predictor for these regions (even for outside the US): what is the regional opinion on open female sexuality? If it is negative, then you have a strong correlation between that and demands for restricting abortion. If it is positive or people don't care, you will see a far less demand for limiting abortion access. Seems to be a better predictor than "being Christian", anyways.
    Views on sexuality have been historically determined by church teachings. Regions which identify more strongly with traditional church teachings and practices are more likely to have "conservative" views on both sexuality and abortion because traditional church teachings on those subjects tend to be conservative. The cultural perspectives you're referring to are, I would suggest, derived from religious expressions.

    You mean Christians like yourself? Because it isn't Christians in general. You keep trying to pass off "your Christianity" as if it is "all Christianity". Classic move.
    I would appreciate it if you didn't constantly assign the worst intentions to my words. When I stated that "Christians do not oppose abortions for cultural reasons" I wasn't attempting to imply that pro-choice Christians aren't Christian. Allow me to amend the statement for clarity: the Christians who oppose abortion do not typically do so for "cultural reasons", they instead support the right to life for all human beings.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; Today at 09:05 AM.

  4. #1204

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    You mean Christians like yourself? Because it isn't Christians in general. You keep trying to pass off "your Christianity" as if it is "all Christianity". Classic move.
    Imagine thinking that Christianity is simply a matter of self-identification, as if it were a fandom or football team or something.

    48% of Catholics think abortion should be legal in all or most cases? Lmao.

    Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).
    Notice also how it's the least religious or practicing "Christians" who support abortion. It's almost as if they don't really give a crap about Christianity.

  5. #1205

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    As I've made clear, I'm not disclosing my personal understanding of the Bible or scriptural doctrine: I'm reciting the official views of the largest Christian institutions on earth. That a significant number of people who identify as Christian currently hold views which contradict the views of the major churches is a concern for organized religion, but not one which says much about the traditional position of Christianity on the issue of abortion.
    I think you quoted the Catholic Church, which still does not push for legal consequences for abortion. Look, if you want to say something like "Christians generally disagree with abortion", I would be ok with that. That isn't what is being put forth in this thread. You gotta keep the goal in focus: it is to make abortion by choice illegal, remember? The Catholic Church isn't going to help you much with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I would, however, like to hear a self-identifying pro-choice Christian explain how abortions on demand can be morally reconciled with the teachings of Christ. I have seen scriptural justifications for not treating parents who choose to abort a child as criminals (a position I agree with), though not one which justifies unnecessary abortion.
    They apparently exist. I knew quite a few socially liberal Christians back in the day, but we never really talked specifically about abortion. As with all denominations of Christianity, I would imagine it is a matter of interpretation and weighting of specific sections of a Bible. Christians can't even agree on if God has a human representative on Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The secular world can legislate on the basis of any moral reasoning it chooses (including Christian reasoning) and still be secular. We don't say that the United States is theocratic because many (if not most) of its voters and legislators are influenced by religious reasoning in their decision making. What undermines secularism is when the institution of the church adopts a direct legislative role in government.
    Wait, how do you have reasoning solely from a religious text and still consider it secular?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I don't expect you to bow to the church's interpretation of what is sinful or not.
    If you want laws removing abortions by choice (as described in Roe v Wade) based on scripture in the Bible, you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Many months ago I offered you an argument which was not grounded in religious reasoning and you rejected it on the basis that an unborn human is not a person.
    You presented a secular argument as to why a fertilized embryo is a person? I don't recall that at all.

    Especially considering your blase attitude towards in vitro fertilization, your moral reasoning seems rather arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The people posting on this forum are voicing an opinion. I have not witnessed any imposition beyond that.
    Lovely non-response, but it is kinda important for me to know what page you are on because you jumped into a conversation about why abortion by choice (and probably a bit beyond that) should be illegal. If you don't care for the legality

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I don't think anyone has argued that pro-choice advocates are legitimate targets for violence or abuse: I certainly don't think they should be.
    I meant feel safe about the legal status of abortion. In the US, many people don't feel safe about their legal access to abortion; the justification of such fear depending on what region of the country they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    That reads more like a complaint against the mechanics of government than anything else.
    It sort of is, the Religious Right has moved heavily into politics in recent years, especially in state governments of the South. Ever since pledging their service to POTUS Trump, the Religious Right has demonstrated they are far more of a political organization than a religious one. I guess they learned that consistent world views are not very pragmatic in politics, so they tossed them all aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Their motivation is their adherence to the traditional teachings of the world's most prominent Christian institutions - which would correlate with my claim that the traditional moral framework of Christianity prohibits "abortion by choice".
    Ok, we are having a failure of communication here, when you use terms like "Christians" or "Church", you can't just be referring to conservative adherents to those groups. They all count, and I am interested in the pragmatic implications of Christianity; i.e. what Christians practice and do. So sure, if you want to say that conservative Christians or Christian traditionalists are against medical abortion by choice, then sure, I can buy that argument. It isn't particularly impressive argument; traditionalist Muslims are also against very against abortion rights as well. Social conservatives tend to be against liberal female sexuality.

    I should add that since we are discussing traditional Christian views of abortion, historic views on abortion are quite interesting and seem to bleed over to today's views. You notice from pro-life activates that they focus their scorn on medical establishments that provide abortion services and are less harsh on women who self-abort (otherwise known as inducing a miscarriage). There is historical precedent of that because that is what abortion used to be; a woman inducing miscarriage because she thought another child would be detrimental to the family, or really whatever reason she decided, and that was something everybody knew happened. It was incredibly impolite to ask or accuse a woman of doing so as it was considered none of your business. Do you agree with that? That women inducing miscarriage is acceptable if she does it herself?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    As a person who doesn't often consider the tenants of my own faith thoroughly, allow me to claim that it isn't suspicious that some people consider the tenants of their faith more thoroughly than others.
    Then it isn't anything particularly core to the faith, now is it? And let's not pretend conservative Christians don't have beliefs and opinions that go against their tenants, Donald Trump and his wall are too popular with them, for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Views on sexuality have been historically determined by church teachings. Regions which identify more strongly with traditional church teachings and practices are more likely to have "conservative" views on both sexuality and abortion because traditional church teachings on those subjects tend to be conservative. The cultural perspectives you're referring to are, I would suggest, derived from religious expressions.
    Yes, that is what I am saying, it has more to do with cultural persuasion than "being Christian".
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I would appreciate it if you didn't constantly assign the worst intentions to my words. When I stated that "Christians do not oppose abortions for cultural reasons" I wasn't attempting to imply that pro-choice Christians aren't Christian. Allow me to amend the statement for clarity: the Christians who oppose abortion do not typically do so for "cultural reasons",
    If you are saying that you believe pro-choice Christians are just as "Christian" as pro-life Christians, then we have been talking past each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    they instead support the right to life for all human beings.
    See, now it feels like a trick because of your comments on in vitro. If you really believed all fertilized embryos (and above) are equally human beings, the process of in vitro fertilization would, at the very least, seem much more terrifying and serious to you than it did. I can't think of many other aspects of society in which we kill dozens of human beings (I still prefer the term 'persons') for the sake of one other. Not that that is even necessarily essential to the procedure of in vitro anyways; you could do it with less embryo destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Imagine thinking that Christianity is simply a matter of self-identification, as if it were a fandom or football team or something.

    48% of Catholics think abortion should be legal in all or most cases? Lmao.
    Have you heard of how conversion missions play out? That is basically what it is: say the right words, and one is Christian. Did you think Christian practices were vastly different for no reason? Religion is a rather nebulous thing. The most formal Christian organization that exists is disavowed by huge portions of other Christians, yourself included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Notice also how it's the least religious or practicing "Christians" who support abortion. It's almost as if they don't really give a crap about Christianity.
    Right, you are still saying you have the true Christianity and the others are pretenders. Think of this from an outsider's perspective: people who call themselves Christians declare that these other people who call themselves Christians are wrong in their beliefs. How often has that happened over the years? All the time, you say? Doesn't sound like a particularly powerful position to hold.
    Last edited by The spartan; Today at 08:05 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

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