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Thread: Morality of abortion

  1. #1081

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    It is written that Jesus said to certain rulers that they were conceived in sin meaning that even as little babies in their mother's womb they inherited the curse. Paul tells us that not one is sinless for all have fallen short of the glory of God. He also tells us that man wherever he is on the planet can see by the creation around him that there is a God to Whom he is responsible meaning that man has no excuse for disregarding God. Of course men will say that they never knew of God yet all their beliefs stem from what followed the flood, each new belief system knowing of God. When God made Adam he was lifeless until God breathed on him and that is when the soul must have entered that man. Was it pure? Must have been until the curse was settled on Adam so this must apply to little babies as they approach life concurring with Jesus' words on the subject.

    So, why is abortion wrong? It is wrong not only from the killing of new life but also because it stops dead that life having an opportunity to be freed from the curse of sin. It affects not only this life but the life that comes hereafter. Could Jesus not resurrect them? Of course He could but that would be by works and not faith which is the prime requirement to salvation.
    It’s a simple question basics. I posted the story. People like you skip the reading. What about the baby that wouldn’t be able breathe upon birth?
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  2. #1082

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Oh, if it is ok to destroy fertilized embryos (which I am guessing you count as being fully human) "for the greater good", as you defined here as being necessary to get a woman pregnant, then that is just a stones-throw away for allowing abortion as is under Roe v Wade. Unwanted children are not good for society, and it is ok to force the unborn (all equally, fully human, I am guessing) to lay down their lives for their family. Am I getting this right?
    The purpose of IVF is to create life not destroy it. Embryos are not being arbitrarily discarded: they are necessarily lost as part of the procedure. No woman, let alone one with reproductive complications, could birth the 10-15 children which the egg yield produces. Attempting to take fewer eggs for fertilization - with a mind to birthing them all - would ultimately make the service itself untenable due to collapsing success rates. Keeping all unused embryos frozen until surrogate mothers could be found would, likewise, make the service itself untenable.

    It would be philosophically and spiritually incoherent to argue that all IVF life should be denied to prevent the loss of some IVF lives. Our view is that the creation and continuation of human life (particularly innocent life) should be facilitated wherever possible. Therefore, the encouragement of nonexistence (which would be the net result of the closure of IVF clinics) cannot be consistent with Christian principles.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; February 11, 2019 at 08:11 AM.

  3. #1083

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    one less human in hell and one more (baby) in heaven!
    When you want someone to go to heaven, it's because you understand that's a good thing and you want to do good. But doing evil can't ever be good, no matter how much it is rationalized as for the greater good. So doing evil for good is irrational and self-defeating.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Question to anti-abortion proponents, are you against all abortions without exceptions?
    Pretty much all cases unless the mother's life or physical health is seriously threatened, which is probably less than 1% of abortions in the developed world.

  4. #1084

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Pretty much all cases unless the mother's life or physical health is seriously threatened, which is probably less than 1% of abortions in the developed world.
    What about the baby who would not be able to breathe once born and what about the baby that would be paralyzed from the neck down?
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  5. #1085
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    It’s a simple question basics. I posted the story. People like you skip the reading. What about the baby that wouldn’t be able breathe upon birth?
    Gaidin,

    If the baby's lungs don't take in oxygen it would be dead. No doubt the doctors and nurses would do all they could to make it breathe but in some cases they can't.

  6. #1086

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Pretty much all cases unless the mother's life or physical health is seriously threatened, which is probably less than 1% of abortions in the developed world.
    Ectopic pregnancies account for 2% of all pregnancies. The only treatment is an abortion. Otherwise you condemn the woman to certain internal bleeding which will cause the death of her. That's just one condition that makes up at least twice as much as cases you dared to consider. Preeclampsia, on the other hand, raises the mother's blood pressure extremely and damage organs. Often, it can lead to strokes or heart attacks. The prevalence for preeclampsia goes as high as 8% of all pregnancies in USA. Shall we continue?
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  7. #1087

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gaidin,

    If the baby's lungs don't take in oxygen it would be dead. No doubt the doctors and nurses would do all they could to make it breathe but in some cases they can't.
    So basically, when they know a month before the birth that the baby won't be able to breath and the birth could in fact be a health danger to the mother's possible future to having children, screw the mom, power forward, give birth to the full born baby that will die within sixty seconds? Or. Abort, stop birthing process, handle situation in surgical clean room and mother can have children in future?

    So basics. Which is it.

    You have the story to read in Post #1059.
    Last edited by Gaidin; February 11, 2019 at 02:49 PM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #1088
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Ectopic pregnancies account for 2% of all pregnancies. The only treatment is an abortion. Otherwise you condemn the woman to certain internal bleeding which will cause the death of her. That's just one condition that makes up at least twice as much as cases you dared to consider. Preeclampsia, on the other hand, raises the mother's blood pressure extremely and damage organs. Often, it can lead to strokes or heart attacks. The prevalence for preeclampsia goes as high as 8% of all pregnancies in USA. Shall we continue?
    Well there you go he would want those abortions legalised too.
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  9. #1089

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    What about the baby who would not be able to breathe once born
    In that case they should do their best to treat and comfort the baby, instead of directly killing him. There's also evidence that carrying such pregnancies to term is better for the mother's mental health.

    what about the baby that would be paralyzed from the neck down?
    Nobody has a right to kill another person because they presume their life is or would be difficult, otherwise we might as well just nuke Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Ectopic pregnancies account for 2% of all pregnancies. The only treatment is an abortion. Otherwise you condemn the woman to certain internal bleeding which will cause the death of her. That's just one condition that makes up at least twice as much as cases you dared to consider. Preeclampsia, on the other hand, raises the mother's blood pressure extremely and damage organs. Often, it can lead to strokes or heart attacks. The prevalence for preeclampsia goes as high as 8% of all pregnancies in USA. Shall we continue?
    Based on these studies, less than 1% of abortions are done for reasons of serious risk to the mother's health.

    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    In any case you asked when abortion is acceptable, and that's when the mother's health is seriously endangered. Even allowing that such cases make up 12% or 21% of abortions, that seems beside the point. The goal is to prevent murder, not necessarily abortion; it's just most abortions are murder.

  10. #1090

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    In that case they should do their best to treat and comfort the baby, instead of directly killing him. There's also evidence that carrying such pregnancies to term is better for the mother's mental health.
    This is not about statistics. This is about diagnostic decisions and recommendations made based on the situation. If you have a problem with that you have no business in this debate. Did you read the stories? Or did you skip them like an asshat? Would you, personally, make anyone, someone, I don't care who, go through that?

    "0.8% of abortions are for the health of mother so I will not recommend this for you and frak you, even though this would demonstrably be better for your health." Is that you? Really? Is that you as a doctor? Or do you care for your patients as single people? Tell me now so that I answer you or ignore you.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  11. #1091

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    This is not about statistics. This is about diagnostic decisions and recommendations made based on the situation. If you have a problem with that you have no business in this debate. Did you read the stories? Or did you skip them like an asshat? Would you, personally, make anyone, someone, I don't care who, go through that?

    "0.8% of abortions are for the health of mother so I will not recommend this for you and frak you, even though this would demonstrably be better for your health." Is that you? Really? Is that you as a doctor? Or do you care for your patients as single people? Tell me now so that I answer you or ignore you.
    I have no clue what you're trying to say here. PoVG asked when abortion is acceptable and I told him: when it is necessary to protect the mother from serious risk to her physical health.

  12. #1092

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I have no clue what you're trying to say here. PoVG asked when abortion is acceptable and I told him: when it is necessary to protect the mother from serious risk to her physical health.
    I have literally given you a case that not only would guarantee a dead birth but could possibly give risk to her future of giving healthy birth. That is unless they abort and control how they handle the late term abortion. What the frak more do you want. GO READ THE GOD DAM STORY. If you do not read these links I can do nothing for you!
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  13. #1093
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I take it you've abandoned your claim that you gave a set of links to what falsehoods I was ignoring? You seem to ignore addressing that part. It's interesting how you stress it in one post only to abandon it completely in an other one that follows... Colorado is one of those 8-9 states that allow late term abortions. I'm not sure why you'd pick it as an example. No one said all states were the same and that was exactly the point that the anti-abortion people tried to ignore.
    I still am waiting for the falsehoods - your move, if you wish. Or we can drop it. Whatever. And I answered about Colorado because I live here. I try to answer what I know something about. I missed where the anti-abortion people ignored anything regarding individual states. Got a link for that claim?

  14. #1094
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    So basically, when they know a month before the birth that the baby won't be able to breath and the birth could in fact be a health danger to the mother's possible future to having children, screw the mom, power forward, give birth to the full born baby that will die within sixty seconds? Or. Abort, stop birthing process, handle situation in surgical clean room and mother can have children in future?

    So basics. Which is it.

    You have the story to read in Post #1059.
    Gaidin,

    Since the child is not breathing and therefore dead if the doctors then acted for the sake of the mother that would not be abortion because it is not living. It would then be a medical call as it was in the case of my first wife. These cases are a long way down the line from a girl making a mistake by falling pregnant and then using health as an excuse to have an abortion.

  15. #1095

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Based on these studies, less than 1% of abortions are done for reasons of serious risk to the mother's health.
    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html
    In any case you asked when abortion is acceptable, and that's when the mother's health is seriously endangered. Even allowing that such cases make up 12% or 21% of abortions, that seems beside the point. The goal is to prevent murder, not necessarily abortion; it's just most abortions are murder.
    What a lovely case of "I don't like what you statistics suggest so I will come up with a different one without addressing yours" you got there. You're also suggesting that a research done by a physicist on prevalence of abortion factors is a better source. When you take a deeper look you realize that they're not based on records but on surveys. Surveys where in many the "unknown" section often makes up a very large percentage. Basically, what you posted is garbage. So, if I know for a fact that an ectopic pregnancy account for 2% of all pregnancies in USA and the only treatment is an abortion I'm not really gonna think twice about not accepting your "less than 1%" figure which you utilize to downplay abortions done due to health reasons. Interesting that you pick a range of 12% to 21%. Likely, you also found statistics that give such numbers but deliberately opted to use the other one. Great job...

    If you consider aborting a fetus as murder which is quite problematic in its own then you have to consider aborting a fetus because it dangers mother's life as murder too. Sure, you can make up definitions but definitions are supposed to be static. You can't apply them on only one set of situation just because you want to. For example, it means that you can shoot someone and not call it murder if you are stranded in a place and have food and water for only one person.

    That said, do tell us why you consider aborting a 3 week old fetus to be murder?


    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I still am waiting for the falsehoods - your move, if you wish. Or we can drop it. Whatever. And I answered about Colorado because I live here. I try to answer what I know something about. I missed where the anti-abortion people ignored anything regarding individual states. Got a link for that claim?
    Come again? It stopped being my move pages ago. You can't really disregard every single post I made and then keep asking for the same things. You don't even address what I say anymore. Clearly, you have lost any merit you think you had in your position, hence, simply trying to push it as far as it goes till I walk away. You have been unable to substantiate your claims and your only defense have been to ignore what's been said about them in this discussion. Clearly, you need to go back and re-read what we've written. You pretty much avoided addressing every single of my responses.
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  16. #1096
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    What falsehoods about the recent Abortion acts have been said
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
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  17. #1097
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    When you want someone to go to heaven, it's because you understand that's a good thing and you want to do good. But doing evil can't ever be good, no matter how much it is rationalized as for the greater good. So doing evil for good is irrational and self-defeating.
    Eh, but evil only concerns the parents, not the babies?

    Imagine a person aborted 10 babies, she might go to hell but then all the babies would be in heaven, wouldn't that be nice? Would you not call that self-sacrifice? would she not be promoted due to the supposedly self-sacrificing act?

  18. #1098

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    What falsehoods about the recent Abortion acts have been said
    That they would make late term abortions common and casual.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  19. #1099
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    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    From Medscape, for those with access,

    Trump Tackles Drug Costs, HIV, Cancer, Abortion in State of the Union - excerpt, .
    ..Next, Trump touched on abortion. "To defend the dignity of every person, I am asking the Congress to pass legislation to prohibit the late-term abortion of children who can feel pain in the mother's womb," he said.

    The White House had released information that the president would at least mention abortion in the speech.

    Ahead of the speech, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) issued a statement emphasizing that the phrase "late-term abortion" has no medical definition and is not used in a clinical setting. Abortions in the third trimester are extremely rare, accounting for less than 1% of abortions, but may be necessary owing to fetal anomalies or to address complications that threaten a woman's health, said ACOG in the statement.

    "Women, in consultation with their physicians, must be able to evaluate all appropriate treatments and make informed choices about what's best for their health and their pregnancies," the group said.
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  20. #1100

    Default Re: Morality of abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    That they would make late term abortions common and casual.
    This. 100% this. Mothers that get to 24 weeks typically want to give birth. If an abortion is needed is hitting the medical fan. At this point it’s not an ethical debate, it’s a medical diagnosis typically.
    Last edited by Gaidin; February 12, 2019 at 03:20 PM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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