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Thread: 2018 Turkish Elections

  1. #81

    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Do you have any proof on that? Especially on your claim about import-dependence?
    Turkey's Erdogan "taunted EU leaders" over migrant deal
    The fact that Mr Juncker confirmed that Brussels endured intense media criticism for delaying the publication of the report until after last year’s Turkish election to assist Mr Erdogan’s ruling party, cut no ice with the Turkish president.
    You really need proof for how ports, factories, banks, and whatnot got bought by foreigner one after an other? What's really made in Turkey? Or owned by Turks? We're even importing agriculture products from Europe in mass.
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  2. #82
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post

    You really need proof for how ports, factories, banks, and whatnot got bought by foreigner one after an other? What's really made in Turkey? Or owned by Turks? We're even importing agriculture products from Europe in mass.
    Yea, I need proof that this is a secret deal.
    Because none of the things you mentioned are out of the ordinary. Selling publically owned ports, banks, factories is nothing out of the ordinary in the world since the neoliberal period. Eu does these as well. And there are global standards under wto on handling these.

    It is part of the goal of economic integration. It is not a secret deal.
    Besides, sales of those SOEs does not increase imports or create an import dependence. Those enterprises still function within Turkey. The only thing that changes its adress is the receiver of profits.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  3. #83

    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Yea, I need proof that this is a secret deal.
    Because none of the things you mentioned are out of the ordinary. Selling publically owned ports, banks, factories is nothing out of the ordinary in the world since the neoliberal period. Eu does these as well. And there are global standards under wto on handling these.

    It is part of the goal of economic integration. It is not a secret deal.
    Besides, sales of those SOEs does not increase imports or create an import dependence. Those enterprises still function within Turkey. The only thing that changes its adress is the receiver of profits.
    It is out of the ordinary when its done in the terms and scale they're done in Turkey. Others usually do it because they can afford to. While not European, the nuclear plant deal is a perfect example. Turkey gives the land for free, pays the Russians to build the plant, with Russians planned to work in it, pledges to buy its fuel from Russia only. Energy dependence at its best. This is also doesn't have to be limited to state-owned enterprises. It's not always a free-for-all. Another example is the seed industry. AKP made it foreign dependent. They almost effectively made it a requirement to use foreign seeds. These seeds in turn turned out to be one time use seeds. It wiped out the seed production as well as made farmers dependent on foreigners to buy seeds from every year.

    Other examples are making it appear as if Turkey started producing its cars or rifles. The car project that couldn't get enough public interest a few years was actually a design purchased from a Scandinavian country, while the rifle turned out to be modification version of a German design. The MILGEM project is an other example where in reality only about 10% is domestically made. Anything of value comes from mostly Europe.

    The fact that EU is willing to postpone the publishing of a report to help AKP to win the elections is proof enough that they're collaborating in various fields and EU wants to keep AKP in power.
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    It is out of the ordinary when its done in the terms and scale they're done in Turkey. Others usually do it because they can afford to. While not European, the nuclear plant deal is a perfect example. Turkey gives the land for free, pays the Russians to build the plant, with Russians planned to work in it, pledges to buy its fuel from Russia only. Energy dependence at its best. This is also doesn't have to be limited to state-owned enterprises. It's not always a free-for-all. Another example is the seed industry. AKP made it foreign dependent. They almost effectively made it a requirement to use foreign seeds. These seeds in turn turned out to be one time use seeds. It wiped out the seed production as well as made farmers dependent on foreigners to buy seeds from every year.

    Other examples are making it appear as if Turkey started producing its cars or rifles. The car project that couldn't get enough public interest a few years was actually a design purchased from a Scandinavian country, while the rifle turned out to be modification version of a German design. The MILGEM project is an other example where in reality only about 10% is domestically made. Anything of value comes from mostly Europe.

    The fact that EU is willing to postpone the publishing of a report to help AKP to win the elections is proof enough that they're collaborating in various fields and EU wants to keep AKP in power.

    It is not about the scale at it is done that matters. It is the method of doing it that is a problem in Turkey. Which is often referring to procuring through corruption and often for favoritism rather than competition.
    A nuclear plant is not the same thing as an enterprise. Energy-dependency is something else. Where you buy your energy from is a strategic choice. That is not the case for globally integrated sectors. Energy is often part of geopolitical arrangements. It does not function on the basis of market arrangements, it functions on the basis of negotiations and where you build your pipes to physically.

    The issues of seed industry and agriculture is also hotly debated issue. The problem in Turkey isn't lack of protection. Afaik, Turkey has even increased protection of agriculture under AKP. The problem is the neglect of the system of agriculture in Turkey and a crisis of governence and urban bias. IPR is an issue is every part of the world. Turkey did not make a secret deal with EU to make Turkey import-dependent. That is BS. In fact, EU agreed to lift all of its own agricultural subsidies in the 2015 WTO round.
    The issue of seeds is something about struggles over IPR. It is a mismanaged issue as well. But I am not an expert on that particular issue so I cannot speak for it.

    Designs of products/goods has nothing to do with creating import-dependence. I am not denying that a lot of those products Turkey has developed are some kind of copies of western technology....but if anything, they made Turkey less-import dependent. Turkey has now access to more room in terms of its military industry due to developments of domestic industry...even if they are based on reverse-engineered stuff.
    That AKP uses this for their political propoganda and own-doing is another issue on its own.

    What does EU's report have anything to do with elections in Turkey at this point? You think AKP supporters give a rats *** about it? Or that it would impact the outcomes? This sounds like the typical delusions of the nationalist kemalist facebook politics....
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  5. #85

    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    It is not about the scale at it is done that matters. It is the method of doing it that is a problem in Turkey. Which is often referring to procuring through corruption and often for favoritism rather than competition.
    A nuclear plant is not the same thing as an enterprise. Energy-dependency is something else. Where you buy your energy from is a strategic choice. That is not the case for globally integrated sectors. Energy is often part of geopolitical arrangements. It does not function on the basis of market arrangements, it functions on the basis of negotiations and where you build your pipes to physically.

    The issues of seed industry and agriculture is also hotly debated issue. The problem in Turkey isn't lack of protection. Afaik, Turkey has even increased protection of agriculture under AKP. The problem is the neglect of the system of agriculture in Turkey and a crisis of governence and urban bias. IPR is an issue is every part of the world. Turkey did not make a secret deal with EU to make Turkey import-dependent. That is BS. In fact, EU agreed to lift all of its own agricultural subsidies in the 2015 WTO round.
    The issue of seeds is something about struggles over IPR. It is a mismanaged issue as well. But I am not an expert on that particular issue so I cannot speak for it.

    Designs of products/goods has nothing to do with creating import-dependence. I am not denying that a lot of those products Turkey has developed are some kind of copies of western technology....but if anything, they made Turkey less-import dependent. Turkey has now access to more room in terms of its military industry due to developments of domestic industry...even if they are based on reverse-engineered stuff.
    That AKP uses this for their political propoganda and own-doing is another issue on its own.

    What does EU's report have anything to do with elections in Turkey at this point? You think AKP supporters give a rats *** about it? Or that it would impact the outcomes? This sounds like the typical delusions of the nationalist kemalist facebook politics....
    Pretty much nothing you said has a basis in reality or relevance. To even say that Turkey increased protection of agriculture under AKP when their most important tool in it is to import agricultural products is just a joke. In the end, it appears like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. You can't even acknowledge where there is direct proof of collusion. You're just wasting time.
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Pretty much nothing you said has a basis in reality or relevance. To even say that Turkey increased protection of agriculture under AKP when their most important tool in it is to import agricultural products is just a joke. In the end, it appears like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. You can't even acknowledge where there is direct proof of collusion. You're just wasting time.
    Pretty much nothing you said has a basis in reality or relevance.
    Turkey is part of EU Customs Union since 1995 which includes agricultural products and has been reducing its tariffs since 1990s.
    It is not something initiated by AKP. In fact, I remember reading that AKP has used the developing country room for increasing tariffs quiet often.

    https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/statis_bis_e.htm?solution=WTO&path=/Dashboards/MAPS&file=Tariff.wcdf&bookmarkState={%22impl%22:%22client%22,%22params%22:{%22langParam%22:%22en%22}}

    Here is the tariff data from WTO. Click on simple average MFN Tariff and on the next section pick agricultural products. You can in fact look into specific goods and their tariff rates and where Turkey stands at them. You'll see that on average, Turkey's tariff are quiet high, especially in agriculture.

    https://www.export.gov/article?id=Turkey-Import-Tariff
    Also, this website has a pretty cool explanation of how Turkey applies protection or preferential treatment.

    The claim that AKP and EU are in a secret deal to make AKP win, and AKP is trying to make Turkey import-dependent is quiet ludicrous. Simply put, it is what I'd call a facebook conspiracy. I often see such bs things being circled on facebook among my Kemalist friends.
    Last edited by Katsumoto de Voltaire; July 15, 2018 at 05:18 AM. Reason: removed personal reference
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  7. #87

    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Turkey is part of EU Customs Union since 1995 which includes agricultural products and has been reducing its tariffs since 1990s.
    It is not something initiated by AKP. In fact, I remember reading that AKP has used the developing country room for increasing tariffs quiet often.

    https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/statis_bis_e.htm?solution=WTO&path=/Dashboards/MAPS&file=Tariff.wcdf&bookmarkState={%22impl%22:%22client%22,%22params%22:{%22langParam%22:%22en%22}}

    Here is the tariff data from WTO. Click on simple average MFN Tariff and on the next section pick agricultural products. You can in fact look into specific goods and their tariff rates and where Turkey stands at them. You'll see that on average, Turkey's tariff are quiet high, especially in agriculture.

    https://www.export.gov/article?id=Turkey-Import-Tariff
    Also, this website has a pretty cool explanation of how Turkey applies protection or preferential treatment.

    The claim that AKP and EU are in a secret deal to make AKP win, and AKP is trying to make Turkey import-dependent is quiet ludicrous. Simply put, it is what I'd call a facebook conspiracy. I often see such bs things being circled on facebook among my Kemalist friends.
    Sigh... Yup, I was right. You're merely arguing for the sake of arguing, fishing on Google to cling to anything that might appear as if it supports your position. It's mostly a play with statistics which is what AKP excels in.

    In reality, however, plantation areas, as well as agriculture workforce, have been declining at an alarming rate under the AKP rule in a time, due to population increase, even stagnation is bad for the country. This was happening under a time when they had full control of the government, and were free to do whatever they wanted to do. They bare the full responsibility. Yet, they didn't even meet the spending requirement set out by the law. You might see a lot of incentive programs left and right, but once you read the fine details you realize that they're not made for the regular farmers, but for large corporations. In the end, its all just a show. The tariffs doesn't mean much if you don't support them with deals or when you make people dependent on the goods. It's like people thinking that when USA applies 20% more tariff on Mexican goods that Mexicans will be the only ones to get affected. In Turkey's case, consumers are the ones that get affected the most as in many cases they don't really have a choice.

    The fact that you're trying to defend AKP that they're actually trying to fight against imports is just amazing. You continue to avoid acknowledging that the EU postponed a report to help AKP win the elections. The collusion is already proven. You're simply trying to debate the details to avoid acknowledging that.
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  8. #88
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    Default Re: 2018 Turkish Elections

    Oh wow...I really can't get used to the way you argue after all those years...Do you not get tired to manipulating people's words?

    I am not defending AKP. I am quiet anti-AKP. I certainly don't agree with their agricultural policies. What makes you think I am defending akp lol?

    I already told you that the problem is an issue of governance, not of protection. Go read what I wrote above. I explained that because you claimed that AKP was destroying agriculture in a secret deal with EU.
    You claimed that there is a secret deal to make Turkey import-dependent. I told you to prove it....

    Go ahead, prove it.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    You continue to avoid acknowledging that the EU postponed a report to help AKP win the elections.
    I don't think EU postponed the report to help AKP. I think they did this because they know that Erdoğan would win and wanted to have good relations with him after the elections. On the other hand, if they published a bad report just before the elections, people would accuse them to try to affect the elections.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Muslims are the new Jews

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Oh wow...I really can't get used to the way you argue after all those years...Do you not get tired to manipulating people's words?
    I am not defending AKP. I am quiet anti-AKP. I certainly don't agree with their agricultural policies. What makes you think I am defending akp lol?
    I already told you that the problem is an issue of governance, not of protection. Go read what I wrote above. I explained that because you claimed that AKP was destroying agriculture in a secret deal with EU.
    You claimed that there is a secret deal to make Turkey import-dependent. I told you to prove it....
    Go ahead, prove it.
    You are defending AKP. You argued that protection of agriculture increased under AKP (those are your words) which is a joke. So, no, I didn't manipulate your words in any way.

    Talking about manipulating words though, I never stated that they had a secret deal in agriculture or anything similar, other than the part about the advancement report that they postponed for Erdoğan. I stated that Erdoğan helps them to make Turkey dependent on foreign imports and money as well as giving them a boogeyman. Those were my words.

    And, still no word on EU helping Erdoğan win an election. As I said, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    I don't think EU postponed the report to help AKP. I think they did this because they know that Erdoğan would win and wanted to have good relations with him after the elections. On the other hand, if they published a bad report just before the elections, people would accuse them to try to affect the elections.
    It's not a matter of what we think. It's a matter of record with Juncker stating that the postponement of the report was done on request from Erdoğan. That they did it solely for him. What might have happened if the report was published in time is irrelevant in this context.
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  11. #91
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: 2018 Turkish Elections

    Hahafsdf
    First of all, you are assuming I am a supporter of agricltural protection tariffs. Or your biases leak so much that you assume that agricultural tariffs are a 'good' thing. I was merely stating them to show that AKP is not lowering protection of agriculture in any significant way to make to make Turkey 'dependent on imports'
    Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that Turkey chose this path way before AKP by liberalizing, choosing the western systems, joining WTO and signing the EU Customs Union.
    Third, you ignored my point that EU is also lifting its agricultural subsidies and will subject to full force of global competition.

    The creation of boogeyman for Erdoğan and making Turkey dependent on purpse in a tacit agreement is your delusion. I don't know. If you want to believe it, go ahead. Personally, I really don't think EU is a fan of Erdoğan nor they want Erdoğan to contniue his rule. The west was going to be a boogey for Erdoğan regardless....it doesn't matter what the EU does. The masses in Turkey believe this story regardless of facts.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  12. #92

    Default Re: 2018 Turkish Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Hahafsdf
    First of all, you are assuming I am a supporter of agricltural protection tariffs. Or your biases leak so much that you assume that agricultural tariffs are a 'good' thing. I was merely stating them to show that AKP is not lowering protection of agriculture in any significant way to make to make Turkey 'dependent on imports'
    Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that Turkey chose this path way before AKP by liberalizing, choosing the western systems, joining WTO and signing the EU Customs Union.
    Third, you ignored my point that EU is also lifting its agricultural subsidies and will subject to full force of global competition.

    The creation of boogeyman for Erdoğan and making Turkey dependent on purpse in a tacit agreement is your delusion. I don't know. If you want to believe it, go ahead. Personally, I really don't think EU is a fan of Erdoğan nor they want Erdoğan to contniue his rule. The west was going to be a boogey for Erdoğan regardless....it doesn't matter what the EU does. The masses in Turkey believe this story regardless of facts.
    This is really not that complex. What you support or not is irrelevant. I made a point about agriculture under AKP and you tried to refute that. That's defending them. So, no, I did not assume anything about you. Clearly, you're unable to address what I actually say. This was a waste of time.
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  13. #93
    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: 2018 Turkish Elections

    I wonder if any of the members here vote for MHP party and what is your opinion of that party!?
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