RC 2.0 Ultimate Updates and Changes

[Dekhatres]

but I thought it also increased their casualties

and you are correct, what i essentially meant to say though is that casualties increase in a disproportionate manner, for example let's say a heavy armored spearman would take 20% more casualties after a mass increase, a militia unit would take 80% more not 20%

you could say that mass increase causes cavalry to always attempt to kill more, when a knight charges a footman if the footman doesnt die the knight keeps going forward and pushes aside the soldier he cant kill and then hits another footman thus attempting to kill again, high mass causes the knight's charge to keep going for longer and trying to kill again and again instead of stopping after hiting the first unit he cant kill

[Point Blank]

That kind of non-linear result does sound really good.

All this sort of stuff is why I haven’t bothered getting anything after M2TW except Shogun 2 - the Warscape engine is far less moddable and some aspects are pretty much absent entirely, ie mass. The M2TW engine is really quite remarkable in what can be done with it and how so many things are so well and so flexibly simulated.

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Something else I am working on is a little file that runs when you open the game, allowing you to select the opponent you will mostly be facing, and the game will then use an appropriate AI formations file for that opponent and bias the Battle AI towards it too - as it is RC already randomly selects one of five Battle AI files to use before each combat.

So when you start the game, or even prior to each battle if you save it and re-start, you select the opponent’s faction. The opponent’s formations and Battle AI will then be appropriate, eg Mongols will prioritize horse archers, France heavy cavalry, England heavy infantry etc.

The RC formations file works on a slightly different principle to most, it builds formations from the center outward one unit at a time, rather than by single large groups of unit types.

[Aper]

I wasn't so hyped in a loong time

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Maybe Dekhatres will be prompted to change his post tagline ‘You know you've played too much Stainless Steel when in every other mod you play you think cavalry is too weak.’

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Ok my PC is fixed, turned out the HDMI port on the graphics card had died so bought a Displayport cable for $3
Back to modding:
Wife ”I’m horny, lets have sex!”
Me “Can’t, busy.”
Wife “Is it that damn game again, the one you’ve been messing about with for the last 12 YEARS? I’m pretty hot you know.”
Me “Yes but so is the graphics card. Have to keep going in case it burns out again.”

[Aper]

Ok my PC is fixed, turned out the HDMI port on the graphics card had died so bought a Displayport cable for $3
Back to modding:
Wife ”I’m horny, lets have sex!”
Me “Can’t, busy.”
Wife “Is it that damn game again, the one you’ve been messing about with for the last 12 YEARS? I’m pretty hot you know.”
Me “Yes but so is the graphics card. Have to keep going in case it burns out again.”

If you need help with your wife, ask! Anything for you mate!

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You are too kind
Been modding M2TW longer than we have been married, so gotta get my priorities right, right?
My 5 year old son likes watching the battles though, at least someone else in the house appreciates it!

[Point Blank]

Making some decent progress with lower-quality infantry pulling back under pressure.
Updated spear attack is 4, defense is 5 (perhaps will be boosted by a further +1), added the frighten_mounted attribute and an additional +2 mount_effect vs cavalry as well.
It might be possible, by altering the following values in descr_skeleton.txt animation definition file, to increase the distance at which spears (and also other weapons like polearms etc) can fight at:
type MTW2_Spear
strike_distances 1.40 2.20 3.2 3.5 4.0

The corresponding values for swords:
strike_distances 1.40 1.50 3.0 3.5 4.0

I will have to experiment with these values.

Mounted unit armor values are now divided between horse armor and rider armor. Mount mass increased as suggested by Dekhatres, to improve on follow-through when charging into infantry.

[Aper]

Making some decent progress with lower-quality infantry pulling back under pressure.
Updated spear attack is 4, defense is 5 (perhaps will be boosted by a further +1), added the frighten_mounted attribute and an additional +2 mount_effect vs cavalry as well.
It might be possible, by altering the following values in descr_skeleton.txt animation definition file, to increase the distance at which spears (and also other weapons like polearms etc) can fight at:
type MTW2_Spear
strike_distances 1.40 2.20 3.2 3.5 4.0

The corresponding values for swords:
strike_distances 1.40 1.50 3.0 3.5 4.0

I will have to experiment with these values.

Mounted unit armor values are now divided between horse armor and rider armor. Mount mass increased as suggested by Dekhatres, to improve on follow-through when charging into infantry.

Looks good, if you could finely tweak the distance of engagement it would be great. Awesome that you are still finding new things to try out!

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Found this: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rike-distances

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OK, I have implemented all the changes discussed in this thread and...wow. Low-quality units get pushed back (and there is now a real difference between how units of average or better quality perform as compared to lower-quality ones), spears are better vs infantry and much more of a threat to cavalry, both against charges and in melee, especially if the cav get bogged down (and I was quite impressed with the M2TW AI, it often pulled the cav back and out for a re-charge if that occurred), AI behavior is improved, heavy cavalry carry right into (and sometimes even through) the infantry formation they are charging...It needs more testing but at this point it looks good, and its probably best if I just release it as-is and get your feedback. And thanks so much for all your input, its been invaluable and took RC in directions that I would not have considered only by myself.

So, all that remains to be done is to get the 4 mini-campaigns working, and bafan sent me a copy of the old SS6.2 when they were, and then it can finally be released! RC is DONE, RR is DONE, as well as all the other updates, additions and improvements. I'm pretty excited for you guys to try it, there has been a hell of a lot of work put into it and it has been how many years now?

[Sebastiaan_1983]

Very excited to try out the new RC 2.0. it still baffles me how such an old game still has so many modding possibilities

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Yes the M2TW engine is really quite remarkable, far superior to the Warscape one in the newer games. There is a Medieval mod for Attila, it looks absolutely gorgeous, but it still suffers badly from units having no real mass and only ever fighting one-on-one. If we could just get the modern graphics and combine them with the M2TW engine, that would be awesome

The new RC plays somewhat differently to the old one. It was nice in one of the playtests I did today where a group of mailed knights charged some spear militia. They withstood the charge without breaking, just, and the knights carried right into their formation, with some breaking right through to the other side. However, the knights then got bogged down and their casualties rapidly climbed to over 50% - it wasn't long before they broke, which is partly to do with spear units now having the frighten_mounted attribute (polearms have it also). Add this to all the other new mechanics its quite a breath of fresh air, and IMHO provides a far superior tactical experience to any other game in the series.

One more thing, I have been surprised how well the AI works with the new version, for example with the spear militia I twice saw them break when they were getting pounded by cavalry, they ran to the rear but it seemed nowhere near as far as normal, re-formed and got back into the fight. I saw the enemy general withdraw from melee on several occasions when it was losing. It used to do that before, but it seems more frequent now.

As I mentioned, each time you start the game you can choose the type of formations and AI you want your opponents to bias towards, and also added a further option to randomize them.

[achilles-91]

If we could just get the modern graphics and combine them with the M2TW engine, that would be awesome

There is decent number of modders making high quality units using materials from other games.

I got lot of interests in your mod, especialy in 1370ad campaign. Im thinking of modifing it even further. Bohemia, Burgundy and couple of other factions is what I would like to see in it. Changing CM textures, cities/castle models. Those all thing already exist, just need to be imported from other mod.

One major thing that i would like to see removed for 1370ad campaign is REMOVING crusade option.

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Yes true, the engine can handle it, just a matter of importing high-quality models and textures.

I very much want to put a good 1370 campaign in place, its my favorite era and IMHO the most interesting one from many angles. There would be room for new factions since Sicily and the Cumans (I think) would be removed and there is a free faction slot as it is; so maybe Georgia for that one plus Burgundy and one other. Some units that did not appear in the Late Era could be removed to make room for new ones. FYI for this release I just added in a quick and dirty 1450 campaign taken directly from the old SS6.2, its pretty ahistorical but only took about 15 minutes to do.

Agreed remove Crusades for 1370.

This is why I want to get the Hundred Years War 1337 and Italian Wars 1494 mini-campaigns working, they provide a good Late Era arena without needing to get a proper full campaign done, at least initially. The developer of the Italian Wars mod has given permission to use anything from that as long as we credit him , it has some very nice units.

If you want to work on it after the release I'm keen. I’m sure we could make it into something really good.

[Point Blank]

Been looking into gun units, and the revolving ranks mechanism, while more appropriate, is pretty much broken. The front rank often just stands there instead of firing, or moves to the rear also without firing first. So to emulate it’s effects will examine other means of reducing the rate of fire still further.

EDIT: fixed gun cavalry only firing with their first rank (ironically by removing the guncavalry attribute), now most of them do and its significantly more effective.

[ToniCogin]

How exciting!


Anyway, I think I wasn't clear enough with my suggestions about crossbow and gun animations.
For the infantry gunmen, it's to remove ANY fire by rank mechanic. This will make them shoot guns so quickly as if it's WW2, however, and to counteract that, the release animation must be EXTENDED by ADDING standing reloading movements AFTER SHOOTING.
My suggestion with crossbows is similar, which I think you misunderstood. What I suggested is to make the shooting animation contain both the actual shooting and reload animations, with the former occurring first. This should effectively make them shoot first and then reload.


What are your thoughts on heavy cavalry so far? Have you decided on removing the ~+8 bonus on heavy cavalry with armored horses and introduced armored penalties on cavalry with naked horses (since they're extra-vulnerabilities), as we have somewhat both agreed to? (averaging the armor of the mount and the rider, so to speak: "The idea of dividing mounted unit armor value between horse and rider is worth looking at; I considered it initially a long time back at something like a 40/60 ratio but didnt adopt it for some reason. ")

Judging from your recent test with mailed knights and spear militias, it seems like it. Would really love to know exactly what you did.


Heavy Cav is just ridiculous in the current SS 6.4 RC. When having Royal Mamluks or Lancers fight WITHOUT EVEN CHARGING against supposedly Anti-Cav units like heavy billmen or poleaxe knights, it's just silly how they manage to kill more men than they lose during the brawl. Hence my old cheesy strat with my RR/AoR disabled 2 turns/year campaigns is to rush building Citadels with factions with op cavs like Poland, Fatimid/Ayuubid, Turks, and France (although France is Northern European and thus without Architect ancillaries and hence it's much tougher to build citadels). The trick is save-whoring for traits and training young builder generals aided by Master Masons Guild on Cities with Schools (ez Goodbuilder trait) and of course to make them as chivalrous as possible by fighting, releasing, and occupying. This is especially good and ez for Poland since they got Architects and Polish Guards have crazy replenishment rates from King's Stables. I managed to conquer the entire east this way and annihilated all of Gengis Khan's armies (1st and 2nd wave) with maxed movement Generals (all movement ancillaries I could find) with a Doctor and Physician and Masters Degree and <=Advanced Military Education, and of course, each with a stack made entirely of fully-upgraded Polish Guards (max armor, Swordsmiths HQ, Horsebreeders HQ). Oh the glory days of destroying and humiliating the Mongols, losing only less than 15% of my army every full-stack battle. Every single unit they have is just outmatched by my Polish Guard. The only factions that can challenge this absurdly OP Cav are Denmark (they can train Obudshaer since it's VH) and Fatimids (Royal Mamluks, best brawler cavs). So against the Danes I use Piast Nobles with their axes (and swords!?) that can ghost through armor and against Royal Mamluks I use Halberd MAA/militias, although these two still have a hard time against those God-Tier Brawler Cavs because of their absurdly high armor (apparently a Royal Mamluk can have a tougher armor than a fully-plated dismounted knight just because the former is riding an armored horse and the latter is not).

Really looking forward to the new RC. Hopefully a balanced army can be finally better than heavy cav spams. Would really love to see pikes actually destroying cavalries charging head-on and spears murdering bogged-down horsemen. With the current armor of heavy cavs, pike-and-shot is useless since Pikemen lose more men than they kill when charged by Gendarmes on the front (and even during the prolonged melee). Halberd-and-shot is what works in SS 6.4. Their AP and high mass and defense are the only combination that can defeat SS Heavy Cav. Historical? Pretty sure it's not. Otherwise, there wouldn't be Swiss Pikemen.

If you need help with custom battle tests, I think I have time for it.

[achilles-91]

Been looking into gun units, and the revolving ranks mechanism, while more appropriate, is pretty much broken. The front rank often just stands there instead of firing, or moves to the rear also without firing first. So to emulate it’s effects will examine other means of reducing the rate of fire still further.

Hmm, is this fixable at all?

Btw, Im preparing some preaty much bigger post, with lot of suggestins (mostly of campaign), to further improve your mod. So far, I see this mod having potentional to be crem de la crem of mods. I would be very happy if titanium and sship modders join this project, as all of those mods preaty much have similar ideas. If all put together, there could be one mod to rule them all.
For example, titanium mod have best region borders, introduced terrae incognita, historical and very good looking UI and faction flags and symbols. SSHIP is better in other aspects, there are no army spam stacks by AI, etc etc.

Another question, can you tell me why specificly you chose 1370ad as starting date for late campaign? Is it because of Timurid invasion? Some other specific event ocured? Those few days im not going to job, so day and night i am trying to make adequate list of factions and to create some sort of map. We need at least 35 faction limit

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The gun infantry broken revolving ranks thing might be addressable via the animations.
I'm keen to work with other modders, everyone brings something to the table.
1370 was chosen on the basis of the Timurid Invasion.
Look forward to your post.