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Thread: What has become of the Republican Party?

  1. #61

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    It looks like a Clintonian (Bill not Hillary) third way platform of keeping the system and compensating losers with fiscal transfers and (re)-training. It hasn't worked for the New Left for the past 30 years, I don't see how it could work for Rubio.

    The fundamental problem is that everyone is trying to be Reagan, without sharing his resolve and adamant belief in his ideas.
    Reagan and Thatcher outright rejected communism and socialism as fundamentally opposite to freedoms following Hayek's ideas. They also rejected social-democracy and Keynesianism. It was a 180 degrees platform switch from anything the left or center left proposed and they stuck to it. Trump won because he adamantly rejected the Neocon/Neoliberal consensus (although he backtracked on some ideas lately).

    Rubio is proposing to tweak a system, while it needs to be smashed.

  2. #62
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post

    As noted in your economist.com quoted piece -- Rubio tends to sound reasoned and then ditches as the wind changes. It may be what is wrong with politics today and not special to only Rubio though. I prefer politicians that keep positions vague until they make a decision and then keep the decision or publicly and forcefully make it clear when and why their position is now changed. None of this 'he was in favor until he was opposed' garbage talk trying to keep all supporters happy.

    In the beginning I had thought a great deal of potential with Rubio -- more than Bush at the time. Maybe it is something in the drinking of the water in Florida that bring this out in the Florida politicians. Perhaps a reset by Rubio is in order and taking the legislative responsibilities without the pontificating about Presidential actions for a while to get this all out of our system. He is a US Senator and not a chief executive.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Indeed, political parties are often molded around one man. In this case the original post is spot on that Trump is the man at the moment that the Republican Party is being molded by. A recent opinion piece by USA Today explained that as a reason why Paul Ryan is leaving the House Speakership:

    Ryan is leaving because...
    In the mid-1940s, a young British college student wrote a pamphlet with fellow Oxford students urging a new path for conservatives in England. The pamphlet urged returning the Tories to a party of certain bedrock principles: that "the individual is more important than the system," and that "individual enterprise is the mainspring of all progress."

    The pamphlet cautioned that a "reorientation of conservatism" was necessary "if the party is to avoid annihilation," and urged conservatives to be "much clearer in the past as to what its basic principles are." Consequently, the party needed "house cleaning."

    That Oxford student, of course, was Margaret Thatcher, who four decades later would remake Britain in this image she envisioned in the 1940s.

    In America, the 1990s spawned a similar mind dedicated to remaking the Republican Party into one tethered to conservative principles. In 1998, Paul Ryan won his first seat in Congress espousing free markets, lower taxes and less regulation — principles he upheld throughout his near 20 years representing Wisconsin’s 1st Congressional District in Congress.

    Yet unlike Thatcher, Ryan was unable to see his vision through to fruition. On Wednesday, the speaker of the House announced he would not be seeking re-election in 2018, ending two decades of being wedged between principle and politics.

    As far back as 2008, when a big-spending Republican Party was being hammered at the polls, Ryan urged a "house cleaning" in the Thatcher mold. "We don’t need a feather duster; we need a fire hose," he said of purging the party of those unwilling to advance the Republican Party’s core ideals.

    In 2015, Ryan reluctantly took control of the speakership of the House GOP, a job many believed only he could do. But the party Ryan agreed to lead had shifted beneath him. In 2016, the nation suffered a convulsion with the election of Donald Trump, a presidential candidate largely anathema to every ideal Ryan held.

    Just four years earlier, Ryan had been the Republican nominee for vice president. Suddenly, with the party bending to Trump’s will, Ryan became the scapegoat for everything wrong with conservatism. He endured enmity heaped upon him by Trump supporters (and Trump himself, who called Ryan a "weak and ineffective leader") and Trump opponents critical of him for not doing enough to counteract the GOP nominee’s outlandish behavior.

    When Trump was elected, the Republican Party ceased to be one that talked about individual liberties and upward mobility. Being a Republican in the Trump era meant excusing racially insensitive remarks made by the president, dismissing hush payments made to porn actresses, and condemning serious investigations into Trump’s attempts to obstruct other investigations. The party of individual responsibility packed its bags and left for a bellicose strongman who promised to care for all of Americans’ needs through the sheer force of his personality.

    And now Ryan has had enough. While he was able to pass a version of tax reform to his liking, Ryan likely saw no appetite and no path forward in Congress to change the nation’s entitlement programs, which are on schedule to sink the economy in the years ahead. He has had enough of gritting his teeth and pretending the Trump era is normal in hopes of passing legislation that will far outlast the president.

    In 2010, I sat down with Ryan during the days when his star within the GOP was on the rise and asked him when he was going to seek national office. I recounted Act I, Scene II of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar — in which Caesar refuses the crown three times before his adoring fans force him to accept it.

    Ryan smiled, paused, and said, "And how’d that work out for him?"
    https://www.dailyrecord.com/story/op...-gop/33791893/
    That's an interesting article. One point, he has misunderstood Julius Caesar: in Shakespeare's play he refuses the crown thrice at Lupercalia, and Decius later lies to him that the Senate has decided to vote him a crown in order to lure him to his death.

    The relevant figure here is not Caesar, Ryan is no Caesar, he's (arguably) a Cassius or Brutus, a "true Roman" disgusted by his arrogant CEO.

    I think Ryan can see he has no future under Trump, and expects Trump to be either impeached once the democrats take the House or to self destruct: either way Trump is likely to take down Republicans who stood by him. If he's not in the system when that happens he can return as a triumphant cleanskin.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #64
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    What has become of the Republican party? It is getting (relatively) more popular . . . .

    Democrats lose ground with millennials - Reuters/Ipsos poll

    Enthusiasm for the Democratic Party is waning among millennials as its candidates head into the crucial midterm congressional elections, according to the Reuters/Ipsos national opinion poll. The online survey of more than 16,000 registered voters ages 18 to 34 shows their support for Democrats over Republicans for Congress slipped by about 9 percentage points over the past two years, to 46 percent overall. And they increasingly say the Republican Party is a better steward of the economy.
    Keep reading
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  5. #65

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Your white numbers are impressive.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  6. #66
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Your white numbers are impressive.
    Pretty sure all the numbers were black, you might want to adjust your monitor.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  7. #67

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Here is a history lesson on ACA from the WaPo factchecker:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.1957b0de7ca6
    The Bottom Line:
    "As we noted, Republicans have skipped the lengthy, open process of hearings and markups of legislation that characterized the Democrats’ march to passage of the ACA. Instead, they moved directly to floor votes. Moreover, Democrats at first tried to enlist some Republican support, while Republicans have not reached out to Democrats.

    But recalling the second-longest Senate session obscures the fact that the floor debate was mostly for show, an exercise designed to allow the closed-door negotiations that shaped the final bill to take place. Once the deal was struck, Reid pushed the final draft forward with as much speed as possible. That’s what McConnell is doing now, having skipped the preliminaries."
    Saying that it was a show is stating the obvious. Hand-wringing and political compromise often happens behind closed doors. Does that mean they are meaningless? Of course not. Everyone is well aware of the possibility of a group or a lone wolf attempting a political stunt and actually voting no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
    I'm curious Sukiyama, in which ways would you describe yourself as conservative?
    Not something I can properly address in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Wars change political parties. Both of the major parties in the USA were changed by Iraq and Afghanistan as they were both transformed by Vietnam. Libya was more a mistake than a war. We have been making these mistakes forever and it did not start in the recent past. Remember Pres. Reagan and the airstrikes against Khadafy to reform behavior? For those who do not remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_U...mbing_of_Libya.

    Both major parties are 'big tent' parties so you see a difference in conventions versus general election voting. Convention tend to be more of the pure party activists. Smaller parties can be purer and lack the aspects of a 'big tent' party for both nominating as well as voting in general elections.

    Trump is trying to pull (or is it push?) the party a bit like Bush did with his 'kinder and gentler nation' rhetoric when he accepted the nomination. We have seen little to no progress on issues such as DACA partially due to some in the Republicans as the elected establishment, but also many Democrats do not want these issues to be counted as successes by the elected Republicans. I remember the criticism by many that Nixon was continuing the Kennedy / Johnson policies as a Republican. Nixon believed in fair housing and fair employment and so did many Democrats as did many Republicans. Remember the 'Rockefeller' Republicans was a term to deride some in the party. Just as we now use RINO (Republicans in Name Only). Some things are not separations between parties, but many activists want every issue to separate the parties.
    Wars do not change political parties. PR and time are what change the faces in political parties. Big tent politics are only prevalent when there is an increasing amount of polarization on political issues. Both parties are fractured to varying degrees internally. That's just nationally, there are state and municipal politics as well.

    The reason we don't see progress on many issues like DACA is because Republicans don't want progress on these issues. They are stymied by their own lack of care for these issues, which is largely a PR problem rather than something they are personally invested in. Democrats only care for these issues because of image, but the idea that both parties refuse progress because they don't want to come to an agreement rather than because they are not capable is false. Both parties have well-oiled PR machines who can sell their side of the story to the country. Political polarization means liberals dont listen to Fox and their spin and conservatives dont listen to WaPo and their spin anyway. This isn't an issue of possible PR fallout stopping either party. What is the problem? We'll never know, but if I had to guess, it has to do with the megalomaniac sitting at the Oval Desk who's made his views well known from the staff he surrounds himself with, to the rhetoric he's spewed, and the executive orders he pushed himself.

  8. #68

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    What has become of the Republican party? It is getting (relatively) more popular . . . .



    Keep reading
    Millennials are hitting the job market and realizing that everything they've been told in college is a lie. Maybe there's hope for the US.

  9. #69
    Ukiah's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    I think the Republican Party must be confused because Trump changes his positions frequently. I still don't know what Trump's final decision on the tariffs would be. He continues to change his mind even after an agreement.

    Last edited by Ukiah; May 01, 2018 at 11:52 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    He hasn't changed his mind. The EU asked time to negotiate, he gave them another month.

  11. #71

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Millennials are hitting the job market and realizing that everything they've been told in college is a lie. Maybe there's hope for the US.
    Yeah, this doesn't come off as anti-intellectual at all.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  12. #72

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Only against liberal intellectuals, and as you know, since liberals love to brag about it, 90%+ of the US academia is politically oriented. I like Taleb, I like Peterson, I like Milanovic or anyone who has the intellectual integrity to challenge dogmatism, political correctness and echo chambers.

  13. #73

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Only against liberal intellectuals, and as you know, since liberals love to brag about it, 90%+ of the US academia is politically oriented. I like Taleb, I like Peterson, I like Milanovic or anyone who has the intellectual integrity to challenge dogmatism, political correctness and echo chambers.
    And I am guessing we are just going off of your definition as what counts as "liberal intellectuals"? It sounds like your understanding of academia comes from Fox News or something; universities teach much more than just social sciences. They are also diffuse institutions operating with a great deal of independence from one another. This that it isn't feasible for "academia" at large to indoctrinate people because different schools would do it differently. Not to mention that we have heard these arguments 9000+ times from conservatives with a chip on their shoulder in the 60s and 70s.


    It should also be noted that trying to tie academia to politics and partisanship is a classic accusation from anti-intellectuals.
    Last edited by The spartan; May 02, 2018 at 01:55 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  14. #74

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    And I am guess we are just going off of your definition as what counts as "liberal intellectuals"? It sounds like your understanding of academia comes from Fox News or something; universities teach much more than just social sciences. They are also diffuse institutions operating with a great deal of independence from one another. This that it isn't feasible for "academia" at large to indoctrinate people because different schools would do it differently. Not to mention that we have heard these arguments 9000+ times from conservatives with a chip on their shoulder in the 60s and 70s.
    Do you realize I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News and I don't think I have ever used it as a source in discussions here? I'm aware of who Tucker Carlson is because he gets spammed on conservative leaning websites a lot, and I find him alright. I still don't watch his show and I have no clue of anything else that goes on Fox.

    It's also pretty ironic that after questioning my rant about intellectuals, you go straight for an ad hominem ''you must have heard it on Fox'' without any evidence whatsoever. Nice ing argument.

  15. #75

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Do you realize I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News and I don't think I have ever used it as a source in discussions here? I'm aware of who Tucker Carlson is because he gets spammed on conservative leaning websites a lot, and I find him alright. I still don't watch his show and I have no clue of anything else that goes on Fox.

    It's also pretty ironic that after questioning my rant about intellectuals, you go straight for an ad hominem ''you must have heard it on Fox'' without any evidence whatsoever. Nice ing argument.
    I apologize if it came off as an ad hominem directed at you, I was trying to note the similarities of the criticisms you had to criticisms leveled by Fox News, which I suppose are broad (hence the "or something" I added). But you aren't actually responding to my argument. You stated a general animosity toward universities ("everything they've been told in college is a lie") which I am pointing out as being anti-intellectual, independent of any political claims. Do you care to differentiate between segments of the academic community, or the diffuse nature of universities in general?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  16. #76

    Default Re: What has become of the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    I apologize if it came off as an ad hominem directed at you, I was trying to note the similarities of the criticisms you had to criticisms leveled by Fox News, which I suppose are broad (hence the "or something" I added). But you aren't actually responding to my argument. You stated a general animosity toward universities ("everything they've been told in college is a lie") which I am pointing out as being anti-intellectual, independent of any political claims. Do you care to differentiate between segments of the academic community, or the diffuse nature of universities in general?
    I'll be more accurate: it's not universities in general, but those of the Anglo-Saxon world in particular (maybe excluding Australia/NZ, I don't know much about them). Canada, UK, US.
    I'd say humanities are significantly worse than STEM fields, which for the most part are still good, except when they are forced to incorporate those 1-2 modules borrowed by social sciences.
    I trust Peterson's judgment over this and he singles out women studies, racial studies, anthropology, sociology, English literature.
    http://torontosun.com/2017/06/29/jor...1-0136e86790f3
    I'm personally not particularly fond of economics right now, though I appreciate the fact that many voices within the field are now being open about its shortcomings.

    I also appreciate your apology.

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