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Thread: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

  1. #21
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.
    Hard to say exactly where the Celtiberian come from and when they got a connection with the celtic world. We didn't even know exactly when the celtic languages have emerged. Is it before Hallstatt (1000-500 BC)? Is it during the period of the Bell Beaker culture (3000-1800 BC)? Is it during the Urnfield culture (1300-800 BC) or during the Tumulus culture (1700 - 1200 BC) ?

    And there is the question of the connection between culture and population fluxes. Are the Celts genetic distincts or are they a patchwork of several migrations? The Celtic culture could have been adopted by a bunch of several indo-european populations. And is it necessarily a change of the genetic with adoption of Celtic culture by some iberic populations?

    Clearly, the answer is very complex, look at the difference between Iberia and British isles during the migrations of Bell Beaker populations:
    https://phys.org/news/2018-03-geneti...s-central.html
    https://phys.org/news/2018-02-ancien...s-migrant.html

    If you are more interested about this debate, I suggest you some good readings:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03773-6
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03857-3

  3. #23
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hard to say exactly where the Celtiberian come from and when they got a connection with the celtic world. We didn't even know exactly when the celtic languages have emerged. Is it before Hallstatt (1000-500 BC)? Is it during the period of the Bell Beaker culture (3000-1800 BC)? Is it during the Urnfield culture (1300-800 BC) or during the Tumulus culture (1700 - 1200 BC) ?

    And there is the question of the connection between culture and population fluxes. Are the Celts genetic distincts or are they a patchwork of several migrations? The Celtic culture could have been adopted by a bunch of several indo-european populations. And is it necessarily a change of the genetic with adoption of Celtic culture by some iberic populations?

    Clearly, the answer is very complex, look at the difference between Iberia and British isles during the migrations of Bell Beaker populations:
    https://phys.org/news/2018-03-geneti...s-central.html
    https://phys.org/news/2018-02-ancien...s-migrant.html

    If you are more interested about this debate, I suggest you some good readings:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03773-6
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03857-3
    Thank you for the response, the explanation, and the links. Unfortunately the latter probably raise more questions than they answer!

    In either case, if I were the Chinese I'd be livid with this thread. After all, the Hellenistic period in the Mediterranean (ending in 30 BC with the death of Cleopatra) coincided with the end of the Warring States, the Qin Dynasty, and most of the Western Han dynasty (but not the early 1st-century AD interregnum of the Xin dynasty before the Eastern Han restoration). Where are the Qin and Han Chinese soldiers! Why don't they get their day in the sun/post in this thread.

    India gets ignored here too, but at least there are some good Seleucid and Parthian Empire stuff to represent the "East".

  4. #24
    Morrowgan's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Don't forget the whole Meroe debate
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  5. #25

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.
    Maybe inspiration from Angus McBride's images, whose "Iberians" inexplicably all look like Mexicans (also, his Gauls look like Dwarves). IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Personally, I'd expect Celtiberians to look like a mixture of Central European and Mediterranean types, i.e. basically like the local Spaniards inhabiting the region today.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).


    Rounded shield => no evidence for the LaTène continental Celts. There is also poor choice in the umbones and the helmets. They choose to represent almost entirely all the bronze helmets that are difficult to identify to celt or roman warriors. It is the best way to do something wrong and useless. And they missed all the other elements of the celtic panoply of the LaTène D period (end of the 1st century BC).

    I prefere the work of french historians because they are closer from the material they are studying (and as they are inept to publish in english and as english historians are inept to read french, there is no other solution yet).



    In: L'armée de César pendant la guerre des gaules, Edition Historic'one

  7. #27

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).
    Well maybe. Haven't read many of those. That was really not my point, though (also, I deliberately chose a vague term).

    If you know more (books with) illustrations that are more historically accurate than Osprey, and more anatomically/ethnically accurate than McBride&Co., feel free to link them here. An additional explanation pointing out why they are better would be good, though. Personally, I don't care about the language (understand French well enough if I have to), although English is racially superior, of course Anyone who wants to study European history should have basic reading comprehension of French and German (and ideally Italian) anyway.

  8. #28
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowgan View Post
    Don't forget the whole Meroe debate
    Woah there bro: did you just assume my Kushite gender?

    Seriously, though, they are relevant to the EB II time frame, considering the five-year war waged against Augustus' forces in Egypt by the Kushite Queen Amanirenas. Her war against the Romans was even initially successful until the Romans counterattacked and invaded Nubia itself (capturing the region around Napata). Only then, from Meroe, did Amanirenas relent and accept a treaty, but the peace terms were highly favorable to the Kushites.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Maybe inspiration from Angus McBride's images, whose "Iberians" inexplicably all look like Mexicans (also, his Gauls look like Dwarves). IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Personally, I'd expect Celtiberians to look like a mixture of Central European and Mediterranean types, i.e. basically like the local Spaniards inhabiting the region today.
    My thoughts exactly!

    That being said, I'd also like the game to cater to my unique tastes, with local Tanit-looking queens as leaders of Iberians, preferably looking like Spanish supermodel Clara Alonso.

    https://78.media.tumblr.com/5a616d27...1r3do1_500.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).


    Rounded shield => no evidence for the LaTène continental Celts. There is also poor choice in the umbones and the helmets. They choose to represent almost entirely all the bronze helmets that are difficult to identify to celt or roman warriors. It is the best way to do something wrong and useless. And they missed all the other elements of the celtic panoply of the LaTène D period (end of the 1st century BC).
    Well, I do see one Celtic warrior there wearing an iron helmet, but I suppose you're right!

    Down with Osprey! Down with the English oppressors! Osprey deserves scorn anyway, since they gripe, complain, and get all litigious instead of being eternally grateful when members of our forum show pictures of their shoddy work. I mean, hello, free publicity and advertising. Otherwise who else besides the mothers of impressionable middle school children and mentally handicapped people would want to buy their garbage "popular" history books? That's some expensive toilet paper right there!

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