Israel kills 45, thousands wounded, in Gaza during protests

**~~swabian~~** · May 18, 2018, 08:12 PM

It's a horrible curse spelled and started by the Roman Empire that renders Jews as the culturally inherited suspect for potentially everything. My suspicion for why this is, is, that Christianity was forced on Europe and so were the ideas of the Middle Easterners. But, of course, as primitive and comparatively savage as those times were, people would choose an easy victim, someone who supposedly started it all. Of course it was not Rome, because most had to surrender to it. Of course it wasn't the Greeks either, because they were Rome's toothless grandpa. It has had to be someone outside and yet close. Someone who has been victimized before, utilizing the same rationalizations. The anger and desire of revenge for getting romanized never ceased. It chose the path of the lowest resistence which lead to the Jews. The path of the coward has lead to this.

**nhytgbvfeco2** · May 19, 2018, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Setekh

Year 2006:
Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

The response from Israel was to deny the legitimacy of the Palestinian elections, as well as a campaign to undermine the elections as hundreds of candidates were arrested by Israeli forces prior to the elections.

When was the last Palestinian presidential election? I'll answer it for you: 2005. At some point we have to admit that it isn't a democracy, t has been over a decade.
Has Hamas dropped the call for our destruction? No. And 2006 was before there was even a blockade.

It is an indisputable lie. Dismantling settlements in tiny Gaza was no compromise as Israel continued to create settlements in the West Bank, colonizing a much larger land. If the charts I saw are accurate, dismantling of the Gaza settlements didn't even create a net decline in the number of settlements constructed by Israel during that year. What happened there was merely for the show for people to use it deceptively and argue what you're arguing right now.

You are in no position to monopolize the concept of compromise. You're defending the Israeli side that at no point offered anything other than the total surrender of Palestinians. On the other hand, the 10-year-truce that was dubbed as de facto recognition of Israel by Hamas was not even responded to by Israel.

Yeah, it's not a compromise, it was a concession. I like how you ignored all other examples I gave, such as the much larger Sinai peninsula, and yet you continue the baseless allegation that Israel is unwilling to compromise on settlements. The withdrawal wasn't for "show", it was a gesture of good will. And a huge mistake. But at least it taught us what happens when we unilaterally withdraw.

The total surrender of Palestinians would mean continued occupation. Even offering them independence is a concession. Every settlements that falls into their territory is a concession we're willing to give, but of course in return we demand some alteration to the border. We hold all the cards, it only makes sense that we should keep some, considering they have NOTHING to offer us. We can't monopolise compromise? Okay. But do they compromise at all? No.

**Ludicus** · May 19, 2018, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by fkizz

the reason for this situation comes from British Empire promises to those who would rebel against the Ottoman Empire

Correct.It was the British Imperialism in action, at a time when Britain attempted to build up allies among the Arab subjects of the Ottoman empire. Britain betrayed the Arabs.
It's a sad irony that (according to some scholars) the position of minorities under the Ottomans was lenient compared to minority treatment elsewhere in the world, such as in certain parts of Europe; the religious minorities were usually treated with a level of tolerance that was not often enjoyed by minorities under Christian rule. In doubt, ask the Portuguese Jews. In fact, Portuguese Jews were welcomed more than anywhere else in Turkey, where they were to be helped in any way necessary to settle in their new home.

Letter from Rabbi Isaac Safarti of Constantinople, to Lisbon:
"Turkey is a land where nothing is lacking, and where all shall be well with you. Its nt better to live under the Moslems than under Christians? here every man may dwell at peace beneath his own vine and his own fig tree"

Let's keep in mind that the Portuguese Jews brought with them to Turkey tobacco which quickly became one of its main exports. They introduced in Turkey modern techniques of weaving textiles, and of manufacturing munitions.As elsewhere, they introduced printing.There, they published works in Portuguese and Turkish, transliterated into Hebrew characters. Portuguese Jews sent to their cousins in Holland the first tulip bulbs to reach the country, and in Holland they introduced the diamond trade, and the skill of cutting precious stones. From Cuba they brought tobacco, and founded the Dutch Cigar industry. From West Indies they brought chocolate, establishing the Dutch chocolate industry. They brought prosperity to Turkey and Holland. The expulsion of the Jews was a disaster for Portugal.
(I highly recommend the book "The Jews and the Expansion of Europe to the West, 1450 to 1800")

A soaring number of Sephardic Jews get Portuguese nationality in 2017, a number six times higher than the total for 2016.And very recently, 'We want a Jewish presence in Portugal' - Israel National News
They are welcome, this is their land. That said, the Moorish legacy is also patently/abundantly illustrated in Portuguese culture.
For my part, I love both cultures.There was a time when both cultures were balanced; not perfectly, but balanced.
Anyway, I digress.
As I said before, what is done is done,we can't really blame the Jews for wanting to be safe, but we can blame the state of Israel for the Zionist colonial project, a dehumanizing colonization of Palestine, through relentless and illegal settlement activity- the root cause of all violence.

------
Back to the topic,
Widespread condemnation for video of soldiers ... - The Times of Israel

The NGO mocked the military’s response that the incident was a few months old: “It isn’t from several months ago; it has been like this for 51 years,” it said, referring to the years in which Israel has maintained military rule over the Palestinians in the West Bank...Incident is the rule, not the exception.

**~~swabian~~** · May 19, 2018, 06:17 AM

at a time when Britain attempted to build up allies among the Arab subjects of the Ottoman empire. Britain betrayed the Arabs.

They didn't need any Arab allies. They actually were this powerful and dominant.

The discussion on creating an Israelic state went on since some time before that in... well... collectively antisemtic Europe. It was just that facing the German psychopathy about things that finally got their asses into movement. Yes, it is sad. Yes it is shameful.

**HannibalExMachina** · May 19, 2018, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by swabian

They didn't need any Arab allies. They actually were this powerful and dominant.

The discussion on creating an Israelic state went on since some time before that in... well... collectively antisemtic Europe. It was just that facing the German psychopathy about things that finally got their asses into movement. Yes, it is sad. Yes it is shameful.

they allied themselves to the arabs, to fight the ottomans, then betrayed the arabs. they may have won without arab auxilliaries, but they chose to employ them.

thats a matter of historical record, so i dont know where you think you are going with this.

oc, they ended up running from their mandate and leaving isreal on their own as well, but their past actions certainly made them unsuited to be a mediator. the arabs were first betrayed by britain, and then the british were in charge of faciliating a compromise in palestine. hey guys, we want you to play nice with these jewish newcomers, trust us, we just want them to have a home!

its almost like colonialism likes to meddle for its own gain, and then runs away to let the locals deal with the mess.

**~~swabian~~** · May 19, 2018, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina

they allied themselves to the arabs, to fight the ottomans, then betrayed the arabs.

thats a matter of historical record, so i dont know where you think you are going with this.

Mh, i'm just trying to figure out things somehow.

oc, they ended up running from their mandate and leaving isreal on their own as well, but their past actions certainly made them unsuited to be a mediator. the arabs were first betrayed by britain, and then the british were in charge of faciliating a compromise in palestine. hey guys, we want you to play nice with these jewish newcomers, trust us, we just want them to have a home!

its almost like colonialism likes to meddle for its own gain, and then runs away to let the locals deal with the mess.

It seems to have been a rather shallow act, originally. They wanted to get rid of the Jews and only acted upon having perceived how they are treated in German occupied territory (namely being murdered). This is of course only the course of action by the end and after the war. It actually grew on them later on, that there is a duty to support Israel, which they did, after all.

**HannibalExMachina** · May 19, 2018, 08:04 AM

i think more importantly, it shows the underlying issues go far deeper than: palestinians are just a bunch of muslim nazies.

continued US meddling, instead of actual attempts at mediation, are making things worse, with the US having a less than stellar reputation in the arab world and whatnot. meddling in syria by various parties for their own gain cannot be discounted, either.

**Aexodus** · May 19, 2018, 03:30 PM

What is the US doing in Palestine Hannibal?

**Ludicus** · May 20, 2018, 03:35 PM

Back to the topic,
Gulf widening between US, world over Gaza - CNNPolitics - CNN.com

The chasm was most marked as eight members of the European Union lined up at the United Nations to call on Israel to restrain from using excessive force.

While recognizing the right to protect its borders, we expect Israel to respect the fundamental right to peaceful protests and the principle of proportionality in the use of force when defending its legitimate security interest," the EU members of the Council said in a statement.
UK Prime Minister Teresa May, speaking in London, called Israel's use of live fire "deeply troubling" and asked for an independent investigation into the deadly clashes.
Alistair Burt, the British Minister of State for the Middle East at the Foreign Office, said the UK is working "urgently" with the United Nations towards an inquiry.

--
Macron also condemned Israel's violence. In French, "les violences des forces armées israéliennes contre les manifestants" (sic).
French Ministier of Foreign affairs, Jean-Yves Le Drian, states: "le transfert de l'ambassade américaine à Jérusalem qui "contrevient au droit international". (the moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a violation of international law)

**nhytgbvfeco2** · May 20, 2018, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ludicus

French Ministier of Foreign affairs, Jean-Yves Le Drian, states: "le transfert de l'ambassade américaine à Jérusalem qui "contrevient au droit international". (the moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a violation of international law)

What law is violated?

**Cyclops** · May 20, 2018, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina

they allied themselves to the arabs, to fight the ottomans, then betrayed the arabs. they may have won without arab auxilliaries, but they chose to employ them.

thats a matter of historical record, so i dont know where you think you are going with this.

Yep the Entente approached the dismemberment of the Ottoman state with Sykes Picot in one hand and the Balfour declaration in the other, and Lawrence of Arabia's promises to the Hashemites in their back pocket. On top of that there were the risible aspirations of the italians and the Hellenic Republic having Big Ideas. The collapse of the Tsarist empire simplified the situation a little but it was God-damned mess.

Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina

oc, they ended up running from their mandate and leaving isreal on their own as well, but their past actions certainly made them unsuited to be a mediator. the arabs were first betrayed by britain, and then the british were in charge of faciliating a compromise in palestine. hey guys, we want you to play nice with these jewish newcomers, trust us, we just want them to have a home!

To be fair the British were forced out of Palestine by the US playing post/new colonialism, and some feisty Israeli terrorism. Wall Street preferred indirect rule by multi-national corporations to direct rule by colonial administration, and Jewish people liked the idea of not being subject to genocide.

Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina

its almost like colonialism likes to meddle for its own gain, and then runs away to let the locals deal with the mess.

Indeed, although its sometimes more helpful to think of "Colonialisms". French, British and US interests clashed over Palestine through the 20th century. The pragmatic left-wing Israeli project got off the ground by navigating gaps in those conflicting forces, no comparable Palestinian project has been successful.

**Ludicus** · May 21, 2018, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2

What law is violated?

As we know,American recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel aims to facilitate the exercise of Israeli sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem; it clearly supports Israeli sovereignty over East and West Jerusalem, but the world does not recognise Israeli sovereignty over either west or East Jerusalem.
France is right, the legal status of Jerusalem is occupied territory. All the actions taken in Jerusalem by Israel are null and void and have no legal consequences in accordance with the Hague Convention of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949.

-The UN resolution 478- the 1980's Israel basic law which declared East and west Jerusalem "complete and united" as the capital of Israel, is a violation of international law.

- Resolution No. 2253 of 1967 on the General Assembly, which calls for Israel to cancel the measures taken to change the status of the city of Jerusalem.

- The Security Council resolution of September 25, 1971, which states: "The Council affirms, in the simplest and most clear way possible, that all legislative and constitutional measures taken by Israel to change the features of the city, including land confiscation and population transfer, From the city to Israel; void and no trace, and can not change the status of the city".

-Resolution No. 50/22 (A and B) of 4 December 1995 on the General Assembly, which includes "denouncing the transfer of diplomatic missions to Jerusalem and the reaffirmation of the Hague and Geneva treaties on the Syrian Golan".

----
Finally, by moving the embassy to Jerusalem, Trump not only violates the international law,but even more importantly, it denies Palestinian right to self-determination and freedom. Jerusalem is a a multi-religious and multicultural city, not a reunified Jewish city under its exclusive control.

That's the reason why the EU and my country (the second country in the world, after Israel, with a Jewish law of return) cannot accompany the US decision to transfer our embassy to Jerusalem.
It's an unwise decision that merely sparks unnecessary violence. That's the reason why my government would be extremely happy to be able to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and move its embassy there, because this would be the same day that it also recognised Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine and moved its diplomatic mission from Ramallah in Palestine to Eastern Jerusalem.
Portugal embassies in Israel, Palestine “move to” Jerusalem on same day.

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On a side note, the EU leaders struggle to save Iran economic ties from US sanctions. Pompeo threatens.
Mike Pompeo threatens 'strongest sanctions in history' and vows to ...

EU sets course for US clash with law blocking Iran sanctions | World ...

The danger is that the dispute over Iran will spill into a wider row between the EU and US over trade, and events will gather their own momentum as the US starts to impose sanctions on key Iranian figures.
In a bid to keep the dispute from spiralling out of control, EU political ambassadors travelled to New York and Washington to urge the US to give carve-outs to EU firms from its sanctions policy. They are also warning the US administration that economic chaos imposed on Iran will be counter-productive, and is more likely to strengthen hardliners than lead to a regime change of benefit to the west.
Günther Oettinger, the EU budget commissioner, urged the EU to remain united. “One thing is very clear to me: Trump despises weaklings,” he said.

EU′s Donald Tusk takes aim at Donald Trump over Iran, trade tariffs ...

Looking at the latest decisions of President Trump, someone could even think 'with friends like that, who needs enemies?' But frankly speaking, Europe should be grateful by President Trump, because thanks to him we have got rid of all illusions. He has made us realise that if you need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of your arm."
The European Council president repeated his comments in a Tweet tagging the US president.

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To sum up, this is the great divide created by the narrow-minded, shortsighted bullying of an accidental and unfit American president, and his friend,the warmonger Netanyahu.

Again, where is Rabin when Israel needs him?
The repercussions of Rabin's murder are here:Netanyahu and the rise of Israel's warmonger radical right wing. Rabin was not Mandela, but he wanted a concrete and stable peace.He wanted a Palestinian state.

The last speech of Rabin

Already a long time ago, in 1976, he said:the essence of peace is reconciliation.

**sumskilz** · May 21, 2018, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ludicus

As we know,American recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel aims to facilitate the exercise of Israeli sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem; it clearly supports Israeli sovereignty over East and West Jerusalem, but the world does not recognise Israeli sovereignty over either west or East Jerusalem.
France is right, the legal status of Jerusalem is occupied territory. All the actions taken in Jerusalem by Israel are null and void and have no legal consequences in accordance with the Hague Convention of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949.

-The UN resolution 478- the 1980's Israel basic law which declared East and west Jerusalem "complete and united" as the capital of Israel, is a violation of international law.

- Resolution No. 2253 of 1967 on the General Assembly, which calls for Israel to cancel the measures taken to change the status of the city of Jerusalem.

- The Security Council resolution of September 25, 1971, which states: "The Council affirms, in the simplest and most clear way possible, that all legislative and constitutional measures taken by Israel to change the features of the city, including land confiscation and population transfer, From the city to Israel; void and no trace, and can not change the status of the city".

-Resolution No. 50/22 (A and B) of 4 December 1995 on the General Assembly, which includes "denouncing the transfer of diplomatic missions to Jerusalem and the reaffirmation of the Hague and Geneva treaties on the Syrian Golan".

----

In other words, the US violated no international law by moving our embassy, Jean-Yves Le Drian is ignorant and/or dishonest, and the press doesn't consider his monologue important enough to be fact-checked.

**nhytgbvfeco2** · May 21, 2018, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ludicus

As we know,American recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel aims to facilitate the exercise of Israeli sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem; it clearly supports Israeli sovereignty over East and West Jerusalem, but the world does not recognise Israeli sovereignty over either west or East Jerusalem.

Not what I asked. I asked how moving the embassy to western Jerusalem violates the law, not about the recognition. Which, btw, doesn't state at any point that Jerusalem shall remain undivided. Infact Russia recognised west Jerusalem as the capital of Israel a few years ago. Remember the uproar it caused? no? neither do I.

France is right, the legal status of Jerusalem is occupied territory. All the actions taken in Jerusalem by Israel are null and void and have no legal consequences in accordance with the Hague Convention of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949.

East Jerusalem? yes. West Jerusalem? no.

-The UN resolution 478- the 1980's Israel basic law which declared East and west Jerusalem "complete and united" as the capital of Israel, is a violation of international law.

- Resolution No. 2253 of 1967 on the General Assembly, which calls for Israel to cancel the measures taken to change the status of the city of Jerusalem.
- The Security Council resolution of September 25, 1971, which states: "The Council affirms, in the simplest and most clear way possible, that all legislative and constitutional measures taken by Israel to change the features of the city, including land confiscation and population transfer, From the city to Israel; void and no trace, and can not change the status of the city".

-Resolution No. 50/22 (A and B) of 4 December 1995 on the General Assembly, which includes "denouncing the transfer of diplomatic missions to Jerusalem and the reaffirmation of the Hague and Geneva treaties on the Syrian Golan".

Irrelevant to what I asked.

----
Finally, by moving the embassy to Jerusalem, Trump not only violates the international law,but even more importantly, it denies Palestinian right to self-determination and freedom. Jerusalem is a a multi-religious and multicultural city, not a reunified Jewish city under its exclusive control.

That's the reason why the EU and my country (the second country in the world, after Israel, with a Jewish law of return) cannot accompany the US decision to transfer our embassy to Jerusalem.

How does an embassy in west Jerusalem deny anyone anything? Of course Jerusalem is a multi-religious and multicultural city, no one is denying that. Well, maybe except UNESCO.
What international law does Trump violate by moving the embassy? still no answer on this, yet you keep saying it.

It's an unwise decision that merely sparks unnecessary violence. That's the reason why my government would be extremely happy to be able to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and move its embassy there, because this would be the same day that it also recognised Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine and moved its diplomatic mission from Ramallah in Palestine to Eastern Jerusalem.
Portugal embassies in Israel, Palestine “move to” Jerusalem on same day.

Not gonna happen.

On a side note, the EU leaders struggle to save Iran economic ties from US sanctions. Pompeo threatens.
Mike Pompeo threatens 'strongest sanctions in history' and vows to ...

EU sets course for US clash with law blocking Iran sanctions | World ...

EU′s Donald Tusk takes aim at Donald Trump over Iran, trade tariffs ...

If by side note you meant "Irrelevant to this thread and should be posted instead in the thread discussing this very subject" then yes, that is indeed a side note.

To sum up, this is the great divide created by the narrow-minded, shortsighted bullying of an accidental and unfit American president, and his friend,the warmonger Netanyahu.

Again, where is Rabin when Israel needs him?
The repercussions of Rabin's murder are here:Netanyahu and the rise of Israel's warmonger radical right wing. Rabin was not Mandela, but he wanted a concrete and stable peace.He wanted a Palestinian state.

The last speech of Rabin

Already a long time ago, in 1976, he said:the essence of peace is reconciliation.

The truth is Rabin's way wasn't very popular, which is why his party lost the election held after his assassination. But even to Rabin Arafat said no, just as he did to those who came after him. To quote Bill Clinton: Arafat did not negotiate, he just kept saying no. The fantasy that had Rabin not been assassinated we'd have had peace by now is just that, a fantasy.

**Vladyvid** · May 22, 2018, 07:58 AM

Palestinians lost this fight long time ago, so Israel can kill them all and nobody would really care (apart from the islamic nations maybe). Im really surprised this hasnt yet happened, because there is nothing to stop Isreal from just killing all Palestinians there. I know its cynical but its the sad truth. Americans will support Isreal no matter what, so what can Palestinians do? They can leave or die.

**LinusLinothorax** · May 22, 2018, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vladyvid

Palestinians lost this fight long time ago, so Israel can kill them all and nobody would really care (apart from the islamic nations maybe). Im really surprised this hasnt yet happened, because there is nothing to stop Isreal from just killing all Palestinians there. I know its cynical but its the sad truth. Americans will support Isreal no matter what, so what can Palestinians do? They can leave or die.

Or, even worse, they could start negotiating.

**agnes69** · May 23, 2018, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Vladyvid

Palestinians lost this fight long time ago

The palestinian arabs lost in 1948, when they decided to throw the jews into the sea.

**athanaric** · May 23, 2018, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Vladyvid

Palestinians lost this fight long time ago, so Israel can kill them all and nobody would really care (apart from the islamic nations maybe). Im really surprised this hasnt yet happened, because there is nothing to stop Isreal from just killing all Palestinians there.

Because, despite many retarded claims to the contrary, Israel isn't a totalitarian dictatorship using "Third Reich methods".