[Westeros - Westeros: Total War 1.0] Westeros Awakens

[Captainnorway]

due to time limitations i've decided to drop some hotseats until i get more time.
so i've decided to drop this

[Dr Mac]

Right, it has been 10 days. Shall we get this show back on the road?

[themzr]

http://www.filedropper.com/wastark5
Stark up!

[themzr]

If mac doesn't play today he is getting subbed.
Stark subbed, Tully up!
http://www.filedropper.com/watully5

[Dr Mac]

Turn up here

[Jadli]

Lannister up! http://www.mediafire.com/file/79uo9z...annister_5.sav

[themzr]

CS sent to Mergor

[Mergor]

https://www.sendspace.com/file/hc68di

[themzr]

Reminder sent!

[Captain Melon]

As Stannis's fleet has blockaded King's Landing and the final preparations for the siege of the city began, the fleet of King's Landing, led by Robert Baratheon's flagship "Robert's Hammer" suddenly struck out from the west. It was hidden to the west of the bay and the admiral had gambled in an all out attack against the invading fleet. After a bloody and brutal battle, not one ship from Stannis's fleet had escaped the fleet of King's Landing, even though the mighty Robert's Hammer had been taken down by overwhelming numbers and of course the giant sea chain of King's Landing itself, which was raised and prevented any enemy ship from escaping.

(Admin has allowed me heroic victory since I reloaded many times and could not get any other result. I could of attacked Stannis' fleet last turn as well and get Heroic victory but I wasn't sure if it was a one time thing under certain circumstances but it seems its not.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[

Greyjoys up

[BerryKnight]

Heroic victories against players are not be allowed. However, occasionally it happens player cant get any other type of victory then heroic victory. In such cases heroic victories

may be allowed, but only if the odds are higher for the attacker than 1:1.

[themzr]

I am aware of that particular section of the rules. However I deem that aspect to be particularly harsh and unfair, especially if in this circumstance it denies a player a chance to win a battle no matter how he arranges his forces. There is precedent for this in the past and thus I have allowed the play to be made. Additional consideration was given to the fact that Captain Melon previously came to me about the move, and was very helpful throughout my questioning process. Please play on.

[BerryKnight]

Using your admin power to overrule a rule because its unfair? Unfair for whom, Him? No. He had the choice to recruit ships from turn 1, albeit not enough time to get them, but that was his choice when he chose Joffrey.
His fleet was trapped in the port, so there was nothing he could do to change the odds of the battle, short of a diplomat, or x100+ Qsaves/Qloads to get a heroic victory. Overruling the rule that wasn't voted on to change in the beginning of the hotseat, simply because this one situation seems 'unfair' to you? This ruling is unfair towards my man, Stannis the Mannis. This action will royally screw my faction, and I will not remain to watch Joff's pathetic fleet reap its unjust rewards.


Also, I only blockaded the port, because nothing short of a Heroic victory would give them a win over my fleet, and depriving them of any finances was key to wearing down their defenses. The rules stated it to be impossible I might add. The rules are the rules, but we've had votes to justify them in past hotseats even 20-30 turns in. Why should the admin have the power in this sole decision?
So, this move on your part totally violates my confidence in this hotseat, especially since its had troubles with people leaving, and being replaced. We're only on turn five, but such is the business of hotseating.


In other news, two days ago I got a new job, shortening my free time for the foreseeable hotseating future. Despite this development, I'm continuing my admin duties and participation in all games.
That being said, I won't waste my free time on frivolous ventures such as this. I will remain if your arbitrary decision is taken back, or voted down. If neither happens, consider Stannis to be open, as I'll be vacating this hotseat.


Berry

[Jadli]

I am aware of that particular section of the rules. However I deem that aspect to be particularly harsh and unfair, especially if in this circumstance it denies a player a chance to win a battle no matter how he arranges his forces. There is precedent for this in the past and thus I have allowed the play to be made. Additional consideration was given to the fact that Captain Melon previously came to me about the move, and was very helpful throughout my questioning process. Please play on.

Firstly, the rules that are in the OP are the Rules, and everyone is playing according to them. Especially the admin should be the one who is aware of all its parts and understand them all, eventhough he might not agree with some of them. You cant just bend them as you wish. The only change to the rules in any hotseat usually happens when there is an issue with them, and people then vote about what to do. Which didn't happen here...

And secondly, what precedent are you talking about? In a majority of hotseats, heroic victories are not allowed at all. And when they are occasionally allowed, it usually happens only when you should otherwise be able to win the battle normally (which is why this rule was made). Not just when you cant get other type of victory, because the lower the odds are the more the game tends to give heroic victories. So when the AR is sometimes bugged, letting you win a battle that should be impossible to win, it gives you automatically only a heroic victory. Does that make the victory valid? Absolutely not.

Look at this battle, what are the odds? 1:5? 1:4? Less? Allowing this victory is ridiculous no matter what explanation you use. (Btw, Melon its mandatory to show odds)

[themzr]

As an admin I am always beholden to the members of the hotseat which I am in place to help. Now you do have a point made that I have been slow in finding replacements for people leaving, of which I admit I could have done better. If a vote of "no confidence" with me as admin passes I will be ok with stepping down and ensuring a smooth transition to the next admin (Probably Dragon, since he is co-admin). But BerryKnight I will not hold this hotseat hostage due to a disgruntled players threats to leave because he doesn't like a ruling. Therefore if you feel strongly about this, then I urge you to put my "adminship" to a vote.

[General Dragon.]

I believe things are going rather too fast right now and everyone should take one step back and think again. I must say I don't agree 100% with your decision aswell themzr. The rules which were made in turn 1 was set in stone and now overrulling it in a crucial moment is drastic decision. Berryknight has the right to be annoyed as he was expecting that his ships won't be defeated let alone sunk all of them because of how the game engine allows a heroic for melon with all ship being destroyed.
Themzr the rule itself might be unfair in some situation but because every hotseat is different we shouldn't instantly jump to conclusions, because there was once a precedent. There is always something different between every hotseat and as such we must always think carefully, if a precedent in another hotseat can be used in this one.

I don't think there is need for voting you out of your admin position. Making a vote to allow the overrule or not can be a compromise here, which can help difusing this situation.

[Jadli]

Yea, the only voting thats needs to happen right now is whether we change the rule or not

[Captain Melon]

Thing is here the joffrey navy from the start seems to be OP and more powerful than stannis fleet because of Robert's Hammer. To get a defeat I had to take away 3 ships. But the fleet being outnumbered gives heroic victory every time which the rule states is not allowed unless 1:1 ratio. Can anyone remember how similar issues like this were solved where OP units cause heroic victories when outnumbered?

I remember in the TA HS the dwarves are more powerful than others and always won when outnumbered considerably but they were getting non heroic victories.

[AdmiralThrawn]

I think, at this point, Stannis made his move knowing that he couldn't be beaten given the Heroic Victory rules. We can change the rule going forward, but we should not change it retroactively. That would be unfair. Given the odds displayed i can see no reason to wave the Heroic Victory rule for a fight that Joffrey should have no business taking.

[Jadli]

I vote we keed the rule the same. And in case the change passes, then this battle should still not be allowed, so Berry (and everyone else) would be given a time to adapt