[Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I don't mean to remove KAM but lower a bit the hidden income OR balance a bit the upkeep/hiring costs with the players. For example, if a unit upkeep for me is 160 AI can't have it at 60 it's too much unbalance for the same unit being in Normal dificulty., go for 100 for AI, or at least 90. Take in mind any of the mechanics affect soo much to AI and punish players a lot= Pop system, supplies, etc etc.

Punishment builds character though.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Jokes for later bro, I'm being constructive.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Jokes for later bro, I'm being constructive.

Sure.

[Seljuq Prince]

I don't mean to remove KAM but lower a bit the hidden income OR balance a bit the upkeep/hiring costs with the players. For example, if a unit upkeep for me is 160 AI can't have it at 60 it's too much unbalance for the same unit being in Normal dificulty., go for 100 for AI, or at least 90. Take in mind any of the mechanics affect soo much to AI and punish players a lot= Pop system, supplies, etc etc.

I would love that too. The upkeep difference is too high that I was going to report it as a bug.

[armen]

I started a Sparta campaign on normal difficulty. I tried 5 unsuccessful campaigns they all failed with me not even being able to conquer one settlement. I tried turtling but with Sparta not even being a major city I couldn't make enough money to get a decent army going,and was attacked by Rome and Crete. I tried recruiting an army on another try and most I can get around 15 units than im in the red. This army was not enough to conquer Athens because by the time it takes you to get 15 units Athens has an army much larger than you plus the city garrison. Any one tried Sparta with this mod and had success?

[Tenerife_Boy]

Did you try????:
1) Raise your taxes (keeping an eye on the PO)
2) Do the statemen missions to try to get some money.
3) Discover new factions to get allies and future trade agreements.
4) Ask as much money as you could in your diplomatic agreements.

Campaigns are totally random, so despite you will get a few same things between each one of them, not every single aspect will be exactly a copy paste (lovely total war randomness I love you). So don't panic. Retry and if you can't succeed, hey! maybe Sparta is not for you? try another faction, it's not the end of the world, isn't it?

Hope my tips helps you
Cheers!

[armen]

Did you try????:
1) Raise your taxes (keeping an eye on the PO)
2) Do the statemen missions to try to get some money.
3) Discover new factions to get allies and future trade agreements.
4) Ask as much money as you could in your diplomatic agreements.

Campaigns are totally random, so despite you will get a few same things between each one of them, not every single aspect will be exactly a copy paste (lovely total war randomness I love you). So don't panic. Retry and if you can't succeed, hey! maybe Sparta is not for you? try another faction, it's not the end of the world, isn't it?

Hope my tips helps you
Cheers!

I was finally successful at conquering Athens. What worked for me was I just hired all the mercenaries from the start aND hit athens they still outnumbered me but I beat them in a field battle with the mercinary tarantine cav being key to the victory

[Tenerife_Boy]

I remember to do that also but to defeat Aetolians.
Great you can go on now!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Guys,
After a few years I’ve come back to R2TW (I mean: to DEI, it’s the only reason to play it) and I’ve got a few questions (I’ve played Massila VH with KAM’s Alternative Economy, I was crushed after 70 turns by Arverni and Helvetii, both fielding 4 full stacks all the time):
- taking the provincial settlements outright is now possible as if there’s no siege/walls mechanics. Is it really true or do I miss something?
- the AI non-playable factions builds up their armies up to the max – for 1 settlement factions is 80 units (4 full-stacks). After a defeat they’re able to respawn those units within 20 turns. Is there a way to limit this never-ending-sea-of-troops mechanism and make battles more varried (not only 20 units against 20 units, or 40 vs 40), and more decisive (a big battle won means something for the war)?

On the other players’ comments:

I love the high building/unit costs but the IA ones (and I'm sure hiring costs) are way too favourable for them. Sure, IA needs some bonuses but not that much as it's breaking the balance. Maybe IA also has hidden income?

This is also my experience. Flood of AI troops.

I am not experiencing the AI rapidly rebuilding their armies. I am experiencing the AI not building any maxed out armies or only a handful altogether. Smaller armies are the norm now.

It’s exactly opposite to my experience. I see AI building up to 80 units while having just 1 settlement, each army is 20. After losing an army the AI is rebuilding them instantly.

it seems that smaller factions can replace their stack a bit too fast. they kept on trowing full stacks at me (on H campaign, N battles) couple of turns after i defeated one. destroying 3-4 stacks root and branch seems to have very limited effect and battle could sometimes feel somewhat meaningless.

that said, it is a fantastic submod! a massive improvement over vanilla and makes every unit and every building initiative count! forces player to think twice before making a move. cannot go back to vanilla after trying it. it introduces somewhat of a DLV and EB feel to the DeI.

hope you'd keep fine-tuning and updating it. thanks a lot

These are similar observations and emotions to those I do have.

JoC

[KAM 2150]

You might have some other mods enabled as in DeI, 1 region factions can't field 4 stacks.

I will be also updating this mod after new version of DeI will be released.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Plus you were playing VH. Play on Normal, the mod is balanced to play on that dificulty. Any higher you take the risk by your own so no need to report.

[Jurand of Cracow]

You might have some other mods enabled as in DeI, 1 region factions can't field 4 stacks.

I'm sure no other mod is enabled as it's a fresh install and I have no other mod but the DEI. It might have indeed been because of VH. Anyway, 80-unit-faction has happened it was after I've subjugated them what spawned a half-stack (13) just in the capital. But for the other 1-region factions I've seen many times 60 units.

EDIT: I've just checked the upkeep costs of units for the Helvetii AI (on VH). It seems that some cost really nothing: Bagaudas show upkeep cost of 73, while in the DEI information window (right-click on the unit card) is described 347, Corio Jovincos 37 (178), but Appea Gaedotos 296 (529) - all are in the same army. In the king's army Bagaudas' upkeep is 31, Appea Gaedotos' 233. In another army Iasotae 71/307, Bagaudas 80, Appea Gaedotos 307. In a Treveri army: Botroas 331/571, Hurjaz Drutiz 214/612, Batoroi 56/242, Bagaudoi 43/188, Nervi Gaesatoi 248/428, Eburonae Lugoae 65/283, Epatha Scammos (it's cavalry) 187/813. For the Arvenii it seem not to be so bad: Kingetoi 310/534, Ambaktoi 337/581, Gaballokigetoi 214/369.
Maybe there's something with the upkeep for those weaker units and for cavalry? KAM, as you've written, you've got a mathematical formula for the recalculation of prices...
EDIT2: I've checked it now on Normal: Gaeroas 98/208, Epatha Scammos 350/813, Bagaudas 163/347, Botroas 411/571.
I've got no idea if these numbers are already what's intended in the AE submod, or they're still from DEI1.2.2.


I'm playing now on Normal as Hayasdan. After 20 turns Kartli has 45 units (plus 17-garrison in Kartli) and has just taken Phasis. Ardhan has 33 units, while Trapezos only 20. I'm still having 6 units, as nobody has attacked me. Hayasdan has 5 regions so it can turtle and seek an opportunity.



BTW - it happened a few times to me that the number of units is reported, but there're no pics in the box (well, but they come to the battle).

Anyway, the Kartlians after turn 26 they took another region - Gabala. They're fighting against 3 factions (Trapezous, Kolkhis, Ardhan) and they won. Maybe it has something to do with the fact they're a "major" faction (the human player can play from the very beginning)? In that previous game, I've noticed that factions like Arverni or Edetani would attack very competently and expand consistently and fast.
Or maybe the Kartlians are just having an easy time: they're in a central position, and Ardhan/Kolchis expanded outwards what provided Kartli with many opportunities.

BTW, playing Massilia (1 region, 20k income) I had only 2 recruitment slots while playing Hayasdan (5 regions, 8k income) I've got 5. What factor determines it?

[Falco]

I hope KAM updates alongside 1.2.3's release, my current Seleucid campaign with this submod is probably my favorite campaign that I've ever played in DEI!

[Dardo21]

BTW, playing Massilia (1 region, 20k income) I had only 2 recruitment slots while playing Hayasdan (5 regions, 8k income) I've got 5. What factor determines it?

Minor regions add 1 slot, major regions add 2, fortified capitals add an additional one, Rome gets a bonus slot and I think one of the later technologies also adds another slot.

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Dardo - thank for the info! It seems to me that it's a good solution - making the speed of recruitment dependent on the size of the land, not the economic development. It makes the 4-region provinces more valuable as well.

Some more observations on the campaign with KAM's AE:
- in general, I think the changes are much welcome;
- as you're likely to have much more money (in the nominal terms) in the treasury all the time, there'll be more requests from the other factions to give them gifts. At the beginning I've hesitated, but then I've learnt that you may reject these claims with impunity, so I just kept on rejecting them.
- the amount of money from the trade relations has been adjusted, but the money you pay / you receive to get the deal was not. As a result, that additional deal-making money is much lower in real terms than it's in the vanilla DEI. This is a reasonable change for two reasons. One, if you play a trading faction (say Rodos) in vanilla DEI on a Normal difficulty you can make much money just selling trade agreements. Second, if you play a non-trading faction (say, any Celts) in the same situation, you are very unlikely to have trade deals (at least with those Greek factions). The Alternative Economy makes real income/costs in both situations much more reasonable/affordable.
- just to recall: don't you ever play any other difficulty than Normal with this submod (and I think this warning should be included in the first post - I had read the entry of Sarkiss in this thread, but it has not convinced me then). The reason is: because the conversion of the prices of the military units is bugged, the AI factions find it very cheap to field armies, and each faction raises quickly as much military as possible (maximum number of full stacks) and is restoring the lost troops also very quickly - it's not a risk, it's a certitude.

[Dardo21]

@Dardo - thank for the info! It seems to me that it's a good solution - making the speed of recruitment dependent on the size of the land, not the economic development. It makes the 4-region provinces more valuable as well.

Some more observations on the campaign with KAM's AE:
- in general, I think the changes are much welcome;
- as you're likely to have much more money (in the nominal terms) in the treasury all the time, there'll be more requests from the other factions to give them gifts. At the beginning I've hesitated, but then I've learnt that you may reject these claims with impunity, so I just kept on rejecting them.
- the amount of money from the trade relations has been adjusted, but the money you pay / you receive to get the deal was not. As a result, that additional deal-making money is much lower in real terms than it's in the vanilla DEI. This is a reasonable change for two reasons. One, if you play a trading faction (say Rodos) in vanilla DEI on a Normal difficulty you can make much money just selling trade agreements. Second, if you play a non-trading faction (say, any Celts) in the same situation, you are very unlikely to have trade deals (at least with those Greek factions). The Alternative Economy makes real income/costs in both situations much more reasonable/affordable.
- just to recall: don't you ever play any other difficulty than Normal with this submod (and I think this warning should be included in the first post - I had read the entry of Sarkiss in this thread, but it has not convinced me then). The reason is: because the conversion of the prices of the military units is bugged, the AI factions find it very cheap to field armies, and each faction raises quickly as much military as possible (maximum number of full stacks) and is restoring the lost troops also very quickly - it's not a risk, it's a certitude.

The higher the difficulty, the more of an -upkeep bonus the ai receives -20 -25 -30 -35 -40, so yeah anything higher than normal or hard will have them get bonusses of up to -60 or -70 with all technologies and general traits. Recruitment gets them a similar buff of -10 -15 -20 -25 -30. So it's not that "because the conversion of the prices of the military units is bugged" since the unit prices are a hard set value, rather than calculated based on the difficulty, but higher difficulties will make them more and more cheaper for the AI, just like it does in regular DEI. It should probably be noted that regular DEI has also been balanced around normal, people are free to play any higher difficulties but this obviously makes it much more challenging. Currently I'm playing on hard, and yes due to my own error the AI initially had an even higher upkeep reduction, which allowed them to build several stacks for 1 region. But due to CA's crappy Ai, these are all levy units (the AI is pretty much forced to spend its entire military budget right away, so that usually means crappy units).

[Jurand of Cracow]

The higher the difficulty, the more of an -upkeep bonus the ai receives -20 -25 -30 -35 -40, so yeah anything higher than normal or hard will have them get bonusses of up to -60 or -70 with all technologies and general traits. Recruitment gets them a similar buff of -10 -15 -20 -25 -30. So it's not that "because the conversion of the prices of the military units is bugged" since the unit prices are a hard set value, rather than calculated based on the difficulty, but higher difficulties will make them more and more cheaper for the AI, just like it does in regular DEI.

I think it's only part of the story. I've quoted the numbers and it seems there's 50% difference for some units, while much less (25%) for the other.
Normal: Botroas 411/571, Bagaudas 163/347, Epatha Scammos 350/813.
VH: Botroas 331/571, Bagaudas 73, Epatha Scammos 187/813
KAM mentioned he'd applied a special mathematical formula (so I infer the "hard set value" is before application of this formula) and I'd guess the reason is somewhere there. Or maybe somewhere in the R2TW engine, I don't know.

It should probably be noted that regular DEI has also been balanced around normal, people are free to play any higher difficulties but this obviously makes it much more challenging. Currently I'm playing on hard, and yes due to my own error the AI initially had an even higher upkeep reduction, which allowed them to build several stacks for 1 region. But due to CA's crappy Ai, these are all levy units (the AI is pretty much forced to spend its entire military budget right away, so that usually means crappy units).

In the M2TW engine there's a unit-recruitment-priority mechanism that makes it possible for the creation of the reasonable AI army compositions (the newer mods achieve very good results somehow, I don't know the details).
I think it's also feasible to do it in R2TW, isn't it?

On another issue: I've noticed that in the DEI taking the provincial settlements outright is possible as if there’s no siege/walls mechanics (I think it's a free ladder at the beginning of any siege). This makes the AI attacks very easy - while playing Massilia I've experience losing in one turn two settlements to Helvetii (provincial capital of Mediolan and a city of Geuna) and two to Arvernin (Tolosa and Narbo). What was the reason to such a solution (I mean the provincial capital)?

[Dardo21]

I'm not talking about the compositions of the army, those can indeed by formed with templates, but the AI is hardcoded to fill armies to the limits of its budget at the start of the game, and it doesn't disband units, so that's why you often end up with barbarian factions with lots of stacks with cheap units.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm not talking about the compositions of the army, those can indeed by formed with templates, but the AI is hardcoded to fill armies to the limits of its budget at the start of the game, and it doesn't disband units, so that's why you often end up with barbarian factions with lots of stacks with cheap units.

I don't get it, explain, please.

Let's have that Helvetii example, a 1-region faction, must be able to recruit different units. If there's a "template", why doesn't it recruit the more expensive units?
(I understand that the AI recruits instantly as much as possible given it has money).

[Dardo21]

Since it's hardcoded to fill as many armies as possible, it doesn't wait until it has build a higher level barracks to build more expensive units, so it fills as many armies as possible with cheap units. That's also the reason why you see Rome running around with pre-polybian units around the marian reforms, it will only build marian units if that army gets destroyed, or when it gets enough money to build new forces. So if you have a 1 region faction, and it has several stacks with cheap units, it will build better units if you kill their armies and they have build a barracks by now.