[Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

[KAM 2150]

Hmm weird, it works for me in current form. I will try to upload me on steam.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Hmm weird, it works for me in current form. I will try to upload me on steam.

Could this possibly be down to some mod conflict?

I'm using de ai arbitriis and cultural tensio together with it.

[Satansblofish]

Could this possibly be down to some mod conflict?

I'm using de ai arbitriis and cultural tensio together with it.

I'm wondering the same thing. No attrition isn't working for me either and I also use both of those sub mods you listed.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I'm wondering the same thing. No attrition isn't working for me either and I also use both of those sub mods you listed.

Actually, I've just checked both of the aforementioned mods with PFM and none of them modifies the campaign_map_attrition_damages_tables, so no, I don't think there could be any conflict here unless there is something else here I don't know about.

[a.ieraci]

After about 50 rounds with Athens to N / N I think that with the right balance, what is currently a sub mod can become the most significant improvement of the mod, thanks Kam for all the work and the passion you have to give us all a always better gaming experience

I hope these improvements are brought into the main mod.

[Tenerife_Boy]

This building cost 14,580 yet it just gives you 675 profit (DeI base setting I guess). That is 22 turns to just pay off a single building. Isn't this submod supose to rise the building costs but also the profit ones? or am I missing something here?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Satansblofish]

@Tenerife_Boy. What's the deal with that sexy UI of yours?

Worth nothing the 10 olive oil makes your trade agreement's more profitable. As such, it's worth checking how much that is making you as well and then calculating the amount of turns required to pay off the building. Also, are you sure the olive oil building gives 675 profit in base DeI? That seems really high for base DeI, especially an early agricultural building. I haven't used just base DeI in a long time, so I can't be confident. I thought it was more like 125 though. Cause I think the base building is only a 2-3K so at 625/turn that would pay off in just a handful of turns and I don't think any buildings pay themselves off that fast?

Actually, I've just checked both of the aforementioned mods with PFM and none of them modifies the campaign_map_attrition_damages_tables, so no, I don't think there could be any conflict here unless there is something else here I don't know about.

Good to know and thanks for taking the time to check!

[Dardo21]

Tenerife Boy, you already asked that question before, you're ignoring +agricultural effects, not to mention the olive oil, which starts at around 5 per piece, which is immediately multplied by 3 with this mod, ultimately it will be worth much more as your trade agreements and +trade income effects increase. The base income for that building in base DEI is 150, so Kam's multiplication of 4,5 is correctly applied.

[Falco]

@Tenerife_Boy. What's the deal with that sexy UI of yours?

Worth nothing the 10 olive oil makes your trade agreement's more profitable. As such, it's worth checking how much that is making you as well and then calculating the amount of turns required to pay off the building. Also, are you sure the olive oil building gives 675 profit in base DeI? That seems really high for base DeI, especially an early agricultural building. I haven't used just base DeI in a long time, so I can't be confident. I thought it was more like 125 though. Cause I think the base building is only a 2-3K so at 625/turn that would pay off in just a handful of turns and I don't think any buildings pay themselves off that fast?



Good to know and thanks for taking the time to check!

I believe its a personal UI submod he made.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

@Tenerife_Boy. What's the deal with that sexy UI of yours?

I believe its a personal UI submod he made.

Correct.

[gnosis89]

Actually, I've just checked both of the aforementioned mods with PFM and none of them modifies the campaign_map_attrition_damages_tables, so no, I don't think there could be any conflict here unless there is something else here I don't know about.

Apparently changing the attrition type for besieging to attrition_none instead of having the besieging attration value set to 0 solves this. Hopefully KAM will implement this soon. (He very on top of things so I imagine he will) Though you can edit it yourself if not...

Thanks for all the work KAM

[geala]

Yep, Slashas wrote it in #76. To be a bit more precise, as far as I see KAM has changed the campaign_map_attrition_damage_tables (rom_attrition_sieging to 0) while it might be better to change the campaign_map_attritions_tables ("damage" row at "besieging" to rom_attrition_none). So I loaded the table in the pack, renamed it and changed it and deleted KAM's table. Maybe you should try it.

[gnosis89]

I'll look into it.

Also, is it recommended to play this on a certain difficulty? I am playing on hard, starting as Pontus I have no option but to disband all of my units to build anything, after one building...

Edit:
I was also wondering, using this with cultural tensio and AI arbitris, could that throw of the balance of the game. Because smaller factions can no longer field decent armies, and those two mods make smaller factions more predominant than in vanilla DeI. (Which is great in terms of diversity of enemies, conquests etc...)

[KAM 2150]

Well that is your choice, either you build up slowly from start/get trading agreements or go for expansion.

[Satansblofish]

I'll look into it.

Also, is it recommended to play this on a certain difficulty? I am playing on hard, starting as Pontus I have no option but to disband all of my units to build anything, after one building...

Edit:
I was also wondering, using this with cultural tensio and AI arbitris, could that throw of the balance of the game. Because smaller factions can no longer field decent armies, and those two mods make smaller factions more predominant than in vanilla DeI. (Which is great in terms of diversity of enemies, conquests etc...)

I use those same sub mods. With Alt Economy and single settlement factions, what has worked well for me is basically turtling by slow playing the very beginning of the campaign. Ill focus on playing politics and building up a decent cache of gold before committing to a decision. This has yielded more consistently positive results whereas early expansion is much dicier. From my limited experience, immediate expansion is much more high risk high reward. During this early period, my battles tend to focus on protecting the home front and I power through turns at a much faster rate.

Two other quick tips, be prepared to deal with the devastating effects of raiding and try to discover new factions only when you have a need to discover them.

[geala]

I'm currently playing a Meroe campaign on N/N, the first time I used a non-successor faction, so maybe it's not the best foundation for remarks, as I lack experience and I'm at the beginning, about 30 turns.

So far,
- I find the unit costs and the income balanced.
- I like the high building costs, makes you think a bit more
- I like the slowing down of expansion speed; however, Meroe can turtle while f.e. Macedon surely cannot; I wonder how you'd feel in the hotspots of the map
- I was a bit shocked by the slow replenishing rates. It's a good idea per se to increase them but up to 32 turns for full recovery of half depleted units in some cases seemed harsh.
- Currently I only see Ptolemeian armies beyond my borders and I'm a bit concerned. None is a full stack and all have a very high proportion of ranged units, f.e. 8 slingers in a 15 units stack (the rest was general, 3 cheap melees, 2 javelins and 1 javelin cavalry as far as I remember). Is the AI capable of dealing with the cost restrictions?

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Apparently changing the attrition type for besieging to attrition_none instead of having the besieging attration value set to 0 solves this. Hopefully KAM will implement this soon. (He very on top of things so I imagine he will) Though you can edit it yourself if not...

Yep, Slashas wrote it in #76. To be a bit more precise, as far as I see KAM has changed the campaign_map_attrition_damage_tables (rom_attrition_sieging to 0) while it might be better to change the campaign_map_attritions_tables ("damage" row at "besieging" to rom_attrition_none). So I loaded the table in the pack, renamed it and changed it and deleted KAM's table. Maybe you should try it.

Hey guys,

I spent the whole evening yesterday trying to crack this, but no matter how I tried I just couldn't figue it out.

I am basically aware of that solution suggested by Slashas but once I try to create my own pack file with the unique table name the changes do not take place and the game still reads the entries from the DeI db files even if I place my file at end of the loading order. Any compatiblity issue, perhaps?

I've gone through a couple of tutorials in the past few days, so this basic db-editing seems quite simple and logic to me. I'm quite sure I've done everything right, but still no success in making it work.

The only time I've made this work was once I retained the table names of either DeI or vanilla tables. In that case both KAM's and Slashas' methods worked for me. But that's obviously not the way one should modify those files.

Has anyone of you actually made it work with the uniquely named tables?
I have a feeling that I've missed something here, which is most likely just some small, trival thing. Though, I have yet to figure out what it is...

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

- I was a bit shocked by the slow replenishing rates. It's a good idea per se to increase them but up to 32 turns for full recovery of half depleted units in some cases seemed harsh.

Indeed that's quite harsh.

Currently I only see Ptolemeian armies beyond my borders and I'm a bit concerned. None is a full stack and all have a very high proportion of ranged units, f.e. 8 slingers in a 15 units stack (the rest was general, 3 cheap melees, 2 javelins and 1 javelin cavalry as far as I remember). Is the AI capable of dealing with the cost restrictions?

We'll have to see about that. More reports will surely be appreciated.

[Satansblofish]

The main caveat I have here is I play with 41 units and on VH so I don't know how that translates to a different experience with this mod quite yet.

- I like the slowing down of expansion speed; however, Meroe can turtle while f.e. Macedon surely cannot; I wonder how you'd feel in the hotspots of the map

Macedon is a tough start for sure and so it's also pretty fun. Macedon can turtle if you play politics. Even on VH your neighboring barbarians will make agreements with you and as long as you with epeiros early on to make rome happy you should be in pretty okay shape. If you want to get really sneaky you can try to turn everyone against Sparta.

- I was a bit shocked by the slow replenishing rates. It's a good idea per se to increase them but up to 32 turns for full recovery of half depleted units in some cases seemed harsh.

Does the mod touch replenishment? I have been going for the general yellow skill for replenishment/aux reduced price and I can replenish a near 41 stack army to full in ~4 turns from many being in the red. I haven't noticed any significantly reduced replenishment like that except for maybe outside a town in a harsh winter. I'm curious what conditions you were facing?

- Currently I only see Ptolemeian armies beyond my borders and I'm a bit concerned. None is a full stack and all have a very high proportion of ranged units, f.e. 8 slingers in a 15 units stack (the rest was general, 3 cheap melees, 2 javelins and 1 javelin cavalry as far as I remember). Is the AI capable of dealing with the cost restrictions?

Yeah, that army comp is weird. As for the smaller stacks, some AI factions will seemingly never recruit more than 7-10 units, at least for ~50 turns or so, maybe never. However, I have found that some factions just seem to build their armies later in the game, whereas I had been used to them always racing to create 2 1/2 stacks(1 1/2 for 41 units) right from turn one, with some slight variance. What does seem to help trigger the AI building near or full stacks is their smaller stacks dying. So maybe keep playing and see how it plays out and report back.

You are definitely going to continue to see more smaller stacks and the max ones will be a rarer site compared to base DeI. I think especially on N where the AI's budget is more restricted. From my view, for most single settlement factions, this different dynamic has not translated to the game feeling any easier, however. Personally, I am going to be keeping an eye on whether KAM decides to focus on the AI recruiting more units. I think there's solid arguments for either point of view.

[Dardo21]

I haven't had any replenishment issues either.