[Submod] Alternative Battles

[YourMadDoc]

This is a collection of various battle/war-related modifications I have made to EB II so far. I created this submod for pure entertainment and there is no connection with history or realism in it. It is not an improvement over existing battles/wars, but rather an alternative for people who want a different experience, or perhaps wish to try something new before new EB II version comes out.
I can't say it makes battles faster or better, they are just different. It does make certain fights between units much faster, but fights between elites or cavalry units seem longer. I would say that technically it makes battles longer as cavalry is engaged with other cavalry units longer so they cannot flank the main body of an army and general lives longer so AI army won't run so quick. I think it makes battles a bit longer and fights a bit faster. However, it largely depends on difficulty, factions, units, and situations.

1 Changes :

Battle

There was a significant change here, I felt that elite/ranged troops aren't really worth using and it is much wiser to pay more levies or skirmish cavalry, surround enemy army and rout them so performance of elites and ranged units were boosted significantly (not in personal stats, but in a way how battles are fought).

- Higher chances for successful melee and ranged attacks + one more hit-point. Most of hits in battle will count so if superior units get into a fight with inferior, it will be more visible. There is also a much larger difference between the performance of fresh/exhausted or rookie/veteran unit so fresh reserves play a larger role to save lives units.

- Fixed running back and forth behavior for ranged units in most cases.

- Ranged units will cause large damage (they have same attack values as before but much more projectiles will be considered as successful and have potential to hurt unit). They often don't score very high kill ratio, but their purpose is to weaken enemies before fight (I see removing first hit-point here as soldier or horse was injured or shield was damaged. Soldier still can fight but he will be in a disadvantage in next encounter)

- Cavalry charge: stronger for strong units, but they need to run much longer distance to receive charge bonus so it is quality over quality change.

- Various changes to battle config, battle ai, and battle scripts for defensive AI behavior in defensive battles (works only without time limit for battles) and leave hard work to player + some changes to keep AI general behind army to counter attacks from flanks and rear.

- Unit morale was slightly boosted for AI units in some cases (by changing their behavior).

- Attack, defense, morale values of all units unchanged.

- Sieges: Priority for wall/ street fighting, less for plaza fighting. Lowered victory conditions for capturing plaza from 20 minutes with 10/1 attack force to 5 minutes with attack 4/1 force.

Campaign

- Fixes to diplomacy stances against the player and AI relations between AI factions as mentioned here (With higher thresholds to jump between warlike/peacefull stances). AI will keep good relations with the player if there are good relations and they are receiving gifts and attack player less, but as AI factions can make peace with other AI factions now, they will wage wars against player often and with larger forces.

- More booty from sacking settlements doubled bonus if citizens are taken into slavery.

- Some changes to AI attack decisions to prevent them starting battles they will likely loose and to advance faster at the start.

- AI sallies before the food runs out mostly disabled, as siege causalities are low but paying for a siege is expensive. They will sally only if they will most likely win.

- Some changes to auto-balance

Formations (only decr_formations.txt and decr_formations_ai.txt are required for changes)

- New field formation, symmetric so armies will crash into each other at center. Units arranged in two infantry lines , skirmish line and archer line. Cavalry on flanks, if there is only one cavalry unit in army, it will be behind army for support role.

- New siege formation with units closer to each other and siege engines spread out.

- Rearranged some custom battle groups so skirmishers will be in row with archers.

Banners (only decr_banner_new.xml is required for changes)

- Much smaller banners to look more as real flags and less as UI elements. Somewhere between having them enabled/disabled.

- Banners will not "bounce" , only wave in wind.


- Some other changes I forgot over time.

2 Install:

Works only on EB II 2.3 and it is not save game compatible. Formations and Banners don't require battle/campaign modifications to work and they are save game compatible.

- backup original files
- copy submod files from here
- If you use submod Agents Revived install compatibility patch after both submods are installed
- run a new campaign and wait until new map.rwm will be generated (idk if it is required but better safe than sorry)
- play


3 Recommended settings:

Hard CAI : Standard EB setting. You may also consider VH, I fixed problem with AI sally from settlements so conquest should be at least as hard as on Hard CAI now. Fragmentation of AI armies on VH should be also smaller as they play wars more defensively (but idk, it happens also on H CAI and it largely depens on objectives of AI).

Hard BAI : Medium has efficiency of AI/player units penalized/boosted too much + AI plays 99% battles without general, weak general, or dead general, while I have exceptional generals most of the campaign so it is far from balanced. You may also consider VH if you are looking for more entertaining battles, but sieges will be exhausting (and I'm definitely not talking about AI units).

No battle limit. In timed battles, AI will always attack, which grants easier victories with fewer causalities as against defending army.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Default formation



Siege Formation



Small banners



Most of soldiers fight injured



Elites cutting through levy units



BOOTY !!!!!



Combat efficiency

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm very interested in the impact your changes have had on the balance of combat and the reaction of the AI. Some of the things you've done are contrary to our goals (nothing wrong with that!), but others have elements I'd like to explore if you don't mind.

Battle

There was a significant change here, I felt that elite/ranged troops aren't really worth using and it is much wiser to pay more levies or skirmish cavalry, surround enemy army and rout them so performance of elites and ranged units were boosted significantly (not in personal stats, but in a way how battles are fought).

- Higher chances for successful melee and ranged attacks + one more hit-point. Most of hits in battle will count so if superior units get into a fight with inferior, it will be more visible. There is also a much larger difference between the performance of fresh/exhausted or rookie/veteran unit so fresh reserves play a larger role to save lives units.

- Fixed running back and forth behavior for ranged units in most cases.

- Ranged units will cause large damage (they have same attack values as before but much more projectiles will be considered as successful and have potential to hurt unit). They often don't score very high kill ratio, but their purpose is to weaken enemies before fight (I see removing first hit-point here as soldier or horse was injured or shield was damaged. Soldier still can fight but he will be in a disadvantage in next encounter)

- Cavalry charge: stronger for strong units, but they need to run much longer distance to receive charge bonus so it is quality over quality change.

- Various changes to battle config, battle ai, and battle scripts for defensive AI behavior in defensive battles (works only without time limit for battles) and leave hard work to player + some changes to keep AI general behind army to counter attacks from flanks and rear.

- Unit morale was slightly boosted for AI units in some cases (by changing their behavior).

- Attack, defense, morale values of all units unchanged.

- Sieges: Priority for wall/ street fighting, less for plaza fighting. Lowered victory conditions for capturing plaza from 20 minutes with 10/1 attack force to 5 minutes with attack 4/1 force.

What did you do to change missile unit movement? Has it had an impact on the volume of fire coming from missile units (ie do they spend more time sat still and shooting, rather than running around)?

How has the AI cavalry use reacted to needing a longer charge distance? How much longer is it?

How did you boost the AI morale by changing their behaviour?

How did you change the siege priority away from the plaza? That sounds like a very positive change, nothing more annoying than sieges turning into a grinding slog in the centre where the enemy never routs. What outcomes have you observed as a result of the change?

Campaign

- Fixes to diplomacy stances against the player and AI relations between AI factions as mentioned here (With higher thresholds to jump between warlike/peacefull stances). AI will keep good relations with the player if there are good relations and they are receiving gifts and attack player less, but as AI factions can make peace with other AI factions now, they will wage wars against player often and with larger forces.

- More booty from sacking settlements doubled bonus if citizens are taken into slavery.

- Some changes to AI attack decisions to prevent them starting battles they will likely loose and to advance faster at the start.

- AI sallies before the food runs out mostly disabled, as siege causalities are low but paying for a siege is expensive. They will sally only if they will most likely win.

- Some changes to auto-balance

Have the changes from that thread made a noticeable difference to diplomacy compared to base 2.3? I haven't really had much feedback on that so far.

What is fragmentation of forces like (as in how often is the CAI sending small stacks in the same direction rather than consolidating them into big ones first)?

What did you do to the auto-balance?

Formations (only decr_formations.txt and decr_formations_ai.txt are required for changes)

- New field formation, symmetric so armies will crash into each other at center. Units arranged in two infantry lines , skirmish line and archer line. Cavalry on flanks, if there is only one cavalry unit in army, it will be behind army for support role.

- New siege formation with units closer to each other and siege engines spread out.

- Rearranged some custom battle groups so skirmishers will be in row with archers.

We didn't have a lot of luck with editing the formations file - it crashes very often. We also found it of limited impact, since no matter what formation you give them, once the battle starts the BAI takes over and moves everything around anyway. Did they stay where you put them more often with your formations?

[YourMadDoc]

I have made some changes very long time , some of dating back to october of last year, so I might remember it incorrectly, but I will answer as I can.

What did you do to change missile unit movement? Has it had an impact on the volume of fire coming from missile units (ie do they spend more time sat still and shooting, rather than running around)?

AI will try to shoot units from best position, but as missile-target-accuracy in battle config is very low, it will move units closer to hit more units (often to skirmish range and start running back and then move to best position and so on). I raised accuracy significantly (to 0.66) but AI will still place them 2/3 of max range. I can not raise accuracy to 1 because attack values are very high, but most of the running is gone.

+ they will ignore targets out of their reach + smaller skirmish range + larger reaction time before being intercepted + much smaller retreat time.

How has the AI cavalry use reacted to needing a longer charge distance? How much longer is it?

AI dont react on this, it has already using it from long distance. It was made to cripple player (or at least me) from overusing it.

I disabled <unformed-charge> in battle_config for cavalry. Cavalry received this bonus when they started to run so I set it to 0 and now they must first get proper formation to receive bonus or else they only bump into the enemy and do a normal attack. If they are standing prepared to charge ahead, they will receive relatively shortly , but if they are disorganized it will take a very long distance. I'm terrible at guessing distance but I would say 150 m for a disorganized charge while before it was maybe 50.

also distance multiplier was lowered significantly from 7.5, but melee-hit-rate is 4 times higher (so less damage, but more melee hits will be accounted for) = heavy cavalry will have devastating charge and skirmish cavalry will have maybe even poorer performance as before charge:

How did you boost the AI morale by changing their behaviour?

AI units count how much are they in danger (causalities, flanked, attacked, overwhelmed , under missle attack etc), once their threat level hit retreat limit, they will retreat to retreat point (calavry will have it 1.5x further away). But morale AI units is so low and AI generals are so bad, units will round in moment they will try for a tactical retreat and break all units around. It was a disadvantage for AI, just additional way how to rout enemy nothing more so I set counters to 9999.

This is vanilla example of their behaviour setting for retreat :

<retreat-analyser>            <retreat-counter>
                <easy>200</easy>
                <medium>150</medium>
                <hard>100</hard>
                <very_hard>100</very_hard>
            </retreat-counter>
            <retreat-point>
                <default>
                    <distance>40</distance>
                </default>
                <cavalry>
                    <multiplier>1.5</multiplier>
                </cavalry>
            </retreat-point>
        </retreat-analyser>

How did you change the siege priority away from the plaza? That sounds like a very positive change, nothing more annoying than sieges turning into a grinding slog in the centre where the enemy never routs. What outcomes have you observed as a result of the change?

It is more an observation of effects of other changes on siege battle. Most of the units will be simply killed or injured during fights on walls, at gate and in street. Less plaza fighting is because player needs to outnumber AI 1:4 not 1:10 and hold this advantage for 5 minutes not 20.

However in case it was not enough, siege battle run during several stages :
- repel attackers
- defend perimeter
- defend street
- fall back to plaza

I'm not sure if I made some changes to it, or what I did there and code is too long to check , but it is configurable how AI should move to another stage in config_ai_battle.

Have the changes from that thread made a noticeable difference to diplomacy compared to base 2.3? I haven't really had much feedback on that so far.

First : I have added one point to WarWeariness limit and reduced chances to turn back from peacefull to warlike to 1/15 for more stable enviroment so I will give feedback on that. But effect is really huge. Before factions were fighting with every neighbour with few armies and sending remaining tiny armies against player from time to time. Now if they make peace with some factions and turn everything against remaining opponents , well its rough. I played as Rome, allied with gaul (I never know which one is which, the green one ) , he conquered another gaul, sweboz and boii and they betrayed me and invaded me with three full stacks and some smaller forces in the first two turns and I had nothing there.

Most of map looks same as before, it has a chain of events from time to time which change whole regions in relatively short time.

EDIT : Ahh dammit, I wanted to brag with map of my conquest and AI development, but I just realized that campaign is no longer compatible with new changes I made. I should read warnings I wrote.

What is fragmentation of forces like (as in how often is the CAI sending small stacks in the same direction rather than consolidating them into big ones first)?

I raised power required for attack slightly so AI waits in/ near settlements slightly longer and thus reinforcements are fragmented less.Slightly.

What did you do to the auto-balance?

I changed lopsided values for autobalance, I read somewhere on forum - and it seems correct, that first value reduces causalities after attacker have x more power and second value add attack after attacker have x more power. Reduced causalities bonus was removed, but attack bonus requires only 1.2 advantage (It was 1.5, or 2. I dont remember)
<lopsided_thresh float = "9999"/>
<lopsided_hn_mod float = "1.2"/>

We didn't have a lot of luck with editing the formations file - it crashes very often.

Yeah, it does crash with smaller typos or error. If the value is set wrong, something line is missing, blocks are numbered incorrectly, some number was skipped, blocks pointing on undefined blocks and the list go on. The worst thing is there is that most no feedback what is wrong. Or there can be units without assigned slots. For example, if archers and siege engine are placed only into one block with max units 6, but there will be an army with 7 of those units, it will crash. Every formation should have a "catcher" block to prevent this crash with low priority and unlimited units of any type (or at least 20 slots for every type of unit).

        begin_block 15    unit_type               any      0.1
        unit_density            close
    max_unit_width            25
        block_formation         line
        block_relative_pos      12 0.0 -5.0
        inter_unit_spacing      3.0
        priority                0.01
        end_block

We also found it of limited impact, since no matter what formation you give them, once the battle starts the BAI takes over and moves everything around anyway. Did they stay where you put them more often with your formations?

Now armies are facing each other directly so they pretty much attack unit before them. I wish I could, but I was not able to prevent the second line from attacking right away without affecting the first line and I'm not sure if it is possible.

However, there is a way how to force AI to keep formation them through engage distance in config_ai_battle. It is used primarily before a battle, units will get an order where to go and they will go there until some enemy unit enters their engage range. If there is none there, they will wait there until they receive a new objective. If it is set too low enemies will hold perfect formation until next objective, but they will not counterattack, set it too high and units will pick a target from the whole army with the highest priority (often same one). I reduced this value 4x times for infantry so they keep fighting around their original post and raised it for 1/4 for cavalry units.

I used this to keep AI general behind a little longer by setting his engage value very low and it was also interesting to set it very low for cavalry. They came close, shoot javelins and then returned to their post, after some time, when I was fully engaged in line fighting, because they prevented me from flanking they returned and attacked me with both sides (I have no idea what triggered it) after my units were exhausted and without javelins, which was extremely smart move, but I have also very bad experiences with it. I might revive this experiment for the future version.

Another thing preventing AI from holding formation are battle scripts with objective ATTACK_ALL. I have disabled some of them or pushed other to trigger later but AI is very "visible" if they are not smashed into player's units so I kept most of the scripts working.
Scripts with forced attack are one thing I'm not sure if I want to play with or without. I played without it and sometimes AI played very smart, most notably general has his own head when he is not forced to attack, running behind the line, pushing breaches, charging into chasers and fighting on flanks and he even leave battlefield with cavalry and skirmishers if line is completely broken or things are too grim. I had to fight same Arevaci heir in four huge battles during my conquest of Hispania as Rome and it was most memorable part of the campaign because of this. But then AI had a bad day and don't move at all ... or move all the time... I ignored this behavior as if I fight against good and bad generals, but idk. There is a lot of good and bad things in it.

I hope it helps.

[Guils]

Is it possible to have this submod with only the campaign changes?

[YourMadDoc]

Is it possible to have this submod with only the campaign changes?

Mostly main groups can be applied separately. Copy

"world" folder "decr_faction_standing.txt" and "decr_campaign_db.xml" file for campaign changes (incompatible, new game required). However, this will also disable few battle scripts with forced attackall command.If you want them back, replace whole "battle scripts" section from original "decr_campaign_db.xml" file.
"descr_banners_new.xml for banner changes
"decr_formation.txt" and "decr_formation_ai.txt" files for formations
"export_descr_unit.txt" for +1 hp for units (incompatible, new game required)
and battle xmls for battle changes

[ramsesii]

Why is EDU not savegame compatible? Its Always the easiest to change midcampaign, as long you dont remove units.

[Cassibellane]

Mostly main groups can be applied separately. Copy

"world" folder "decr_faction_standing.txt" and "decr_campaign_db.xml" file for campaign changes (incompatible, new game required). However, this will also disable few battle scripts with forced attackall command.If you want them back, replace whole "battle scripts" section from original "decr_campaign_db.xml" file.
"descr_banners_new.xml for banner changes
"decr_formation.txt" and "decr_formation_ai.txt" files for formations
"export_descr_unit.txt" for +1 hp for units (incompatible, new game required)
and battle xmls for battle changes

Hi, just a little feedback regarding this submod - and then a little question.

Overall I like many of the changes. The AI advances as a unit, keeping its formation for the most part. The AI generals do a good job of screening against flanking/rear attacks - and obviously don't commit themselves early into the battle. Getting a charge right can be devastating, but it really does require some planning..and you can't afford to just run your cavalry back and forth.

As I've been playing as Macedon and almost all of my battles have been against the KH I've not really seen how the AI uses cavalry so can't comment on that.

My one complaint would be...the changes to morale. Some battles just become an endless slog, with certain units holding out with virtually no men(but still, seemingly, convinced victory must be their's), despite that the rest of their army has either died or left the field.

Is there an easy way to revert the morale settings, or will it be a case of amending each one?

[YourMadDoc]

Why is EDU not savegame compatible? Its Always the easiest to change midcampaign, as long you dont remove units.

It seems EDU is also sensitive on hitpoint value and the game crashed when I tried to apply the change in midcampaign.

Hi, just a little feedback regarding this submod - and then a little question.

Overall I like many of the changes. The AI advances as a unit, keeping its formation for the most part. The AI generals do a good job of screening against flanking/rear attacks - and obviously don't commit themselves early into the battle. Getting a charge right can be devastating, but it really does require some planning..and you can't afford to just run your cavalry back and forth.

As I've been playing as Macedon and almost all of my battles have been against the KH I've not really seen how the AI uses cavalry so can't comment on that.

My one complaint would be...the changes to morale. Some battles just become an endless slog, with certain units holding out with virtually no men(but still, seemingly, convinced victory must be their's), despite that the rest of their army has either died or left the field.

Is there an easy way to revert the morale settings, or will it be a case of amending each one?

Some greek units are with top morale in EB2 I believe +with the submod units with good equipment are harder to kill compared to other units so it makes it more obvious. Ranged weapons have their chance for successful hit also boosted so volley from skirmishers from behind should be much more effective against them now.

Stats of units are unchanged, except mentioned additional hitpoint. The only change affecting morale is AI retreat if I remember correctly. You can replace <retreat-analyser> section in battle_ai with orignal.

[Cassibellane]

It seems EDU is also sensitive on hitpoint value and the game crashed when I tried to apply the change in midcampaign.



Some greek units are with top morale in EB2 I believe +with the submod units with good equipment are harder to kill compared to other units so it makes it more obvious. Ranged weapons have their chance for successful hit also boosted so volley from skirmishers from behind should be much more effective against them now.

Stats of units are unchanged, except mentioned additional hitpoint. The only change affecting morale is AI retreat if I remember correctly. You can replace <retreat-analyser> section in battle_ai with orignal.

Cheers, I figured out the <retreat-analyser> fix, so now when they do start routing(retreating?) there is something of a domino effect (which seemed not to be the case with the modded <retreat-analyser>.

Those Greek units really are a tough nut to crack now though. Just to say that even the enemy reinforcements came at me in formation.

The effects of cancelling ATTACK_ALL sounds quite interesting as well. Do you know which ones you cancelled, and can it be specific to types of units (for example, cavalry)? In my last battle the AI, for the most part, made my life very difficult, flanking me with skirmishing units (though I don't know how much of that was down to how the two armies approached my line - one came at me from an oblique angle) but they had one unit of hippeis...which just charged into the front of one of my phalanxes...(sigh).

[YourMadDoc]

Cheers, I figured out the <retreat-analyser> fix, so now when they do start routing(retreating?) there is something of a domino effect (which seemed not to be the case with the modded <retreat-analyser>.

Those Greek units really are a tough nut to crack now though. Just to say that even the enemy reinforcements came at me in formation.

The effects of cancelling ATTACK_ALL sounds quite interesting as well. Do you know which ones you cancelled, and can it be specific to types of units (for example, cavalry)? In my last battle the AI, for the most part, made my life very difficult, flanking me with skirmishing units (though I don't know how much of that was down to how the two armies approached my line - one came at me from an oblique angle) but they had one unit of hippeis...which just charged into the front of one of my phalanxes...(sigh).

The attackall is command for the whole formation, not for unit types. For example, there is script for AI to attack with everything if they loose x% of army, or it is reinforcement, etc. It can help to solve some problems but it also made army and more importantly AI generals suicidal and they will never leave hopeless battle, unless they are routed.
It has its pros and cons. With the script AI will sometimes attack even if it should obviously defend and without it AI will sometimes defend when it should obviously attack.
I wish I could do something about cavalry but I wasn't able to.

[Aper]

I'm at turn 50 in a Boioi campaign and enjoying your mod.
One thing I like is that the interaction between 2 HPs and higher hit rates lead to lower casualties for the winner in short and easy battles, and higher casualties when the opposite forces are more evenly matched.
I killed the wandering rebel stacks without much effort, but when I faced the two best Sweboz armies at once I feared defeat and had half my men dead, something I didn't expect. So far I'd say you did a good work!

[Manivs]

Is there possibility to install only some of your change?
I don't want to change units stats like cavalry charge or missile attack but rest sounds very nicely especially this part about enemies army fragmentation. I
t is very annoing when they attack you with only two units turn by turn.

[PrimoTw]

Hi, thanks for the submod.

Does it work with the latest version? EB 2.35?

Also are you going to update?

[Aneximanes]

iirc some aspects have been integrated into 2.35 by the EB team?

[Domaje]

Apart from the reworked and functioning diplomacy, I don't think so.

Anyway some of this submod is compatible with 2.35 I believe : the descr_formations.txt, desc_formations_ai.txt, and descr_banners_new.xml for banner changes.

It won't change too much the battles, but you'll enjoy armies formation as shown in post #1.

[Aper]

Any chance this submod will be updated for 2.35? I enjoyed it a lot

[PrimoTw]

Waiting patiently too.

[QuintusSertorius]

We're discussing adoption of the smaller banners at the moment.

[ghost0128]

I have always really liked the formations in this, prefer them to normal.

[Domaje]

Hello, I tweaked my game using this submod but I would like to revert to the original CAI. Could someone post an unmodified descr_campaign_db.xml file please ?
Copy-paste its content using the code tags would also do the trick.