Recommended changes to usurpation

[VineFynn]

This all looks great to me, albeit complex!

Are the files and changes made in this thread save game compatible, or would it require a new game for them to be implemented?

A rule of thumb:

Changes to existing traits, triggers, localisation and the creation of new triggers are save game compatible. I can personally confirm all the changes I've made in this thread are save-game compatible.

The creation and deletion of traits will break save games. I don't think changes to scripts actually take effect until a new game is started so they won't break your save game but they also won't do anything.

As for complexity: it's a great deal simpler than it looks: this is mostly for the modders' benefit (which now includes me I suppose haha). I could've simplified it (and indeed I will get around to creating something like a guide when I've implemented these changes in the mod) but I didn't really have time. What's important is the principles I lay out with respect to balance, historicity and interesting gameplay. All my changes respect that, and arguably the old system was more complex (by virtue of being poorly designed)

[Lifthrasir]

^^ You're right about the script

[Swarbs]

A rule of thumb:

Changes to existing traits, triggers, localisation and the creation of new triggers are save game compatible. I can personally confirm all the changes I've made in this thread are save-game compatible.

The creation and deletion of traits will break save games. I don't think changes to scripts actually take effect until a new game is started so they won't break your save game but they also won't do anything.

As for complexity: it's a great deal simpler than it looks: this is mostly for the modders' benefit (which now includes me I suppose haha). I could've simplified it (and indeed I will get around to creating something like a guide when I've implemented these changes in the mod) but I didn't really have time. What's important is the principles I lay out with respect to balance, historicity and interesting gameplay. All my changes respect that, and arguably the old system was more complex (by virtue of being poorly designed)

Thanks, +rep

Turns out I managed to solve the usurpation problem in my ERE game. Just had to charge a whole lot of heirs into enemy spears before I got a non usurper. Just in time as my faction leader was rapidly expiring!

The complexity comment wasn't a criticism, I just meant it looked like the problem itself was complex and there are a lot of options and ways to try and make it better. Complexity in itself isn't a problem imo provided, as you point out, the resulting system is intuitive and the player can understand it. Certainly better than the old system, where there was nothing more than a decision loop:

>10 IS HEIR USURPER?
>20 IF YES, KILL HEIR
>30 GOTO 10

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, +rep

Turns out I managed to solve the usurpation problem in my ERE game. Just had to charge a whole lot of heirs into enemy spears before I got a non usurper. Just in time as my faction leader was rapidly expiring!

The complexity comment wasn't a criticism, I just meant it looked like the problem itself was complex and there are a lot of options and ways to try and make it better. Complexity in itself isn't a problem imo provided, as you point out, the resulting system is intuitive and the player can understand it. Certainly better than the old system, where there was nothing more than a decision loop:

>10 IS HEIR USURPER?
>20 IF YES, KILL HEIR
>30 GOTO 10

This is exactly what we want to fix: the player is not forced to kill potential heirs, and this should be much inferior solution to keeping him alive.

[VineFynn]

Thanks, +rep

Turns out I managed to solve the usurpation problem in my ERE game. Just had to charge a whole lot of heirs into enemy spears before I got a non usurper. Just in time as my faction leader was rapidly expiring!

The complexity comment wasn't a criticism, I just meant it looked like the problem itself was complex and there are a lot of options and ways to try and make it better. Complexity in itself isn't a problem imo provided, as you point out, the resulting system is intuitive and the player can understand it. Certainly better than the old system, where there was nothing more than a decision loop:

>10 IS HEIR USURPER?
>20 IF YES, KILL HEIR
>30 GOTO 10

One incredibly annoying bug I just put in a fix for should decrease the number of usurpers you get even more so. Personally I think for the ERE usurpers should be a semi-regular occurrence, but not in the way they are currently implemented. That should be resolved in the next version, bugfixes and tweaks permitting.

[Alavaria]

Basically, the player is their Praetorian Guard, specifically selecting the next emperor by killing off the successors until finally they get a good one.

Except it occurs before said successor actually becomes emperor, rather than after.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Guys,
some work-in-progress: Attachment 353188

This contains my submods:
- EoG: Education of Generals
- GTCS (money traits, personality traits etc.)
- Princess fix (concerning the NoComingBack bug - not finished but should be much better)
- Loyalty (fix of Near / Far Loyalty, and also VineFynn fix of the usurper mechanics)

cheers
JoC

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hi Guys,
some work-in-progress: Attachment 353188

This contains my submods:
- EoG: Education of Generals
- GTCS (money traits, personality traits etc.)
- Princess fix (concerning the NoComingBack bug - not finished but should be much better)
- Loyalty (fix of Near / Far Loyalty, and also VineFynn fix of the usurper mechanics)

cheers
JoC

Hey JoC, how to install these files please?

And how do they work together with Tmodelsk minimod where some of your modifications already exist?

Cheers.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hey JoC, how to install these files please?

And how do they work together with Tmodelsk minimod where some of your modifications already exist?

Cheers.

You just overwrite the files in the /data/ folder in the SSHIP mod.
I suspect they're not compatible as tmodelsk have made some changes (I don't know which) also to some files over my previous EoG/GTCS modifications. So the previous versions are included, but the newer ones - not (in particular princesses, bloods, Loyalty). I'm working now on the agents' traits at the moment, mainly to eliminate the Antitrat and NoComingBack bugs.

[Der Böse Wolf]

You just overwrite the files in the /data/ folder in the SSHIP mod.
I suspect they're not compatible as tmodelsk have made some changes (I don't know which) also to some files over my previous EoG/GTCS modifications. So the previous versions are included, but the newer ones - not (in particular princesses, bloods, Loyalty). I'm working now on the agents' traits at the moment, mainly to eliminate the Antitrat and NoComingBack bugs.

Ok, this means that I should unselect your mod in Tmodelsk's mini mod options and install your files instead?

>You just overwrite the files in the /data/ folder in the SSHIP mod.

You mean in the SS6.3 file I assume.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ok, this means that I should unselect your mod in Tmodelsk's mini mod options and install your files instead?

>You just overwrite the files in the /data/ folder in the SSHIP mod.

You mean in the SS6.3 file I assume.

yes, SS6.3 folder, if you hadn't changed the name of the folder (I did, and I've adjusted the .cfg file, so I have SSHIP folder).

The problem is - I'm not sure which tmodelsk tweaks change the EDCT / EDA files - that are moded by myself. I suspect Army costs, definitely No Dread on assassinations, Battle dread lowered, and perhaps a few more. These wouldn't work in you use files from #47 entry.

[Lifthrasir]

If Der Böse Wolf uses tmodelsk stuff, by providing the relevant files, that might help you to figure it out JoC

[doodeeda]

yes, SS6.3 folder, if you hadn't changed the name of the folder (I did, and I've adjusted the .cfg file, so I have SSHIP folder).

The problem is - I'm not sure which tmodelsk tweaks change the EDCT / EDA files - that are moded by myself. I suspect Army costs, definitely No Dread on assassinations, Battle dread lowered, and perhaps a few more. These wouldn't work in you use files from #47 entry.

Yes, your files do erase the changes made by No Dread on Assassinations and Army Costs. I attempted to combine the two by copy pasting the changes and I may have succeeded. I haven't played yet haha.

[RodriguesSting]

I have a few suggestions of scripts regarding civil wars. Or, more accurately, general suggestions, that probably would require scripts, that I wouldn't know ow to do. Mostly, the player would try to get rid of conspiring and rebellious generals. There's four ways to do that. 1 - Boating accident, always popular for being more or less guaranteed to get rid of multiple characters, but would depend on the presence of pirates or enemy fleets. 2 - Deserting. These characters have bottom low loyalty, so leaving them outside could eventually lead to desertion, but it is hardly guaranteed. 3 - Dying bravely in combat, no explanation required. 4 - Selflessly helping the diseased in a plagued city and, sorrowfully, coming down to the disease.

All of these, naturally, can happen accidentally. But if the player wants it to happen "accidentally", it requires moving a character outside, least they are in a coastal settlement with a port, in which they could grab a ship and go straight for method 1. My suggestions is to create, if possible, a script that makes it guaranteed these plotting characters to go rebel outside the settlement. Now, that would actually help the player getting them out of the family tree and succession line, but with that, would come two more things. A full stack army to go with the rebels, and, if possible, the civil war. That would allow for the possibility of either allowing, passively, these characters to stay in the settlement and the civil war happen on succession, or get an immediate, flaming conclusion to the whole thing that, upon loss, would result in a greatly weakened realm.

The highest levels of conspirators have severe debuffs to governance and movement speed, that would make the sailing option very hard to pull off. Player would, naturally, just leave them outside until they die or, hopefully, rebel (the France case). Instead of just keeping them out as a non-factor, that would allow these characters to actually become a real visible danger to the campaign.

[Jurand of Cracow]

This may be useful in the future work:

The reason I say the leader's authority is the "only" thing that affects chance of named characters revolting is that setting the leader's authority to zero (with vanilla values in descr_campaign_db) results in a spate of revolts while setting leader authority to 10 prevents all revolts. Meanwhile, as the title of this thread suggests, when the leader's authority is set to 0, named characters with 10 loyalty attribute will revolt with seemingly the same probability as named characters with 0 loyalty which leads me to believe that either loyalty does not affect the probability or it only affects the probability if the leader's authority is > 0 (i.e. it's a multiplier for the leader's authority but anything * 0 == 0)

This should be also looked at:

I hope its a correct place to post some comments on 0.98.. Recently I was playing Pisa, version 0.98 from 2 feb. I started the campaign earlier with the previous version and continued it in 0.98 (I switched around turn 40, so possible it affected the game..) Anyway maybe you will find this post still useful. The problems I encountered are below:

1. I played never accepting any adoptions, the king had children, but the rightful heir received the "heir presumptive" trait. His sister is married to the byzantine general who is now claimant (+5 authority as description says), but it happened years after the heir was established already.. The description says the king failed to have children, but its not true. I am posting the picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG][/IMG]

I am not sure how this thing works, I thought that first in order to become heirs are the sons of a king? Should another factions FM married into the family become a rival for the throne so easily?

[jackw93]

Hi it has been a year since my last trial at SSHIP and found the Usurper mechanic to be quite difficult to even figure out how to play with it in the game.

Has this been updated/is there a rundown of how it is with the current downloadable sship version?

I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere I just couldn't find it and I apologize in advance for the clutter

Merci

[Belovèse]

No problem! From what I know it has not really been changed as far as the scripting goes. But Macaras made a really great mini-mod that'll be included in the 098 release, and that fixes family trees so there are no more secondary hidden family trees, that's a huge improvement.

Apart from that, it is quite easy to avoid usurpers: do not adopt, and do not marry faction members that are not legitimiate sons of the current leader. That globally prevent Usurpers from appearing in my experience.

Have fun, mon ami!

[jackw93]

thanks for the reply - will check it out

[Jurand of Cracow]

Apart from that, it is quite easy to avoid usurpers: do not adopt, and do not marry faction members that are not legitimiate sons of the current leader. That globally prevent Usurpers from appearing in my experience.

Indeed, it should.

Frankly speaking, this is part of the game that I'm going to delve into, but the time is not yet ripe for it. It works for the moment, playing should be fun, so let it be. In the future though, the usurper mechanics is likely to be more difficult for the player once a faction gets larger. Say 10 settlements? We'll see.

[Belovèse]

Is there a FL trait that increase unrest in all settlements? For now it is pretty easy to stay above 100℅ public order and this makes the Civil War script effectless.

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