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Thread: [I] - Recommended changes to usurpation

  1. #21
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: An ideal recruitment system

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    On one hand you're right. On the other: one has to be very careful with crafting it as it demands very good orientation and imagination on how the triggers would work in future. The botched up "Drunk" trait I've dealt with in the past shows one of the pitfalls. The other might be, for instance, the trait system for the princesses that doesn't work properly now due to the "NoGoingBack" bug, and requires much of work to operate in a reasonable way it has been fixed in Titanium).
    Since you've brought it up several times: I'm actually already quite good at that and have been for years. I mod other games with an eye for that kind of comprehensiveness and studied systems design and political science, both of which involve thinking about and writing rules intended to WAD in any situation and to have contingencies/be applicable in literally any situation. I've written like 20 something essays and written many sets of rules to those ends in my spare time, as well.

    So you don't have to worry about me in that regard. Not that I intended to be the one to make those changes anyway.

    At any rate, I agree with you.
    Last edited by VineFynn; March 29, 2018 at 02:44 AM.
    Real life is balanced.

  2. #22
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: An ideal recruitment system

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    Since you've brought it up several times: I'm actually already quite good at that and have been for years. I mod other games with an eye for that kind of comprehensiveness and studied systems design and political science, both of which involve thinking about and writing rules intended to WAD in any situation and to have contingencies/be applicable in literally any situation. I've written like 20 something essays and written many sets of rules to those ends in my spare time, as well.

    So you don't have to worry about me in that regard. Not that I intended to be the one to make those changes anyway.
    I'm sorry - I absolutely didn't mean to offend you.
    On the contrary - from how you've dealt with crunching the usurper system, I have to say that I'm impressed by your deep and careful analyses. I actually think it's you who can understand my worries of sloppy coding - stemming from what I'd seen in the SSHIP/SS files, in WotN, or even in the EBII files.

    Concerning coding - I hope we can do it somehow together. One person cannot discern all the possibilities/ risks/ingenuity of the players in using the system. And you seem to be the only person around dealing with these issues - come one, I've waited many times for somebody to get into the usurper system intricacies. Thanks for it!

  3. #23
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Posts about usurpation and triggers moved to the relevant thread.
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  4. #24
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: An ideal recruitment system

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I'm sorry - I absolutely didn't mean to offend you.
    On the contrary - from how you've dealt with crunching the usurper system, I have to say that I'm impressed by your deep and careful analyses. I actually think it's you who can understand my worries of sloppy coding - stemming from what I'd seen in the SSHIP/SS files, in WotN, or even in the EBII files.

    Concerning coding - I hope we can do it somehow together. One person cannot discern all the possibilities/ risks/ingenuity of the players in using the system. And you seem to be the only person around dealing with these issues - come one, I've waited many times for somebody to get into the usurper system intricacies. Thanks for it!
    I wasn't offended haha, I just thought it was worth letting you know I'm reasonably experienced in that regard, in case you were concerned

    I'd love to be a part of resolving these problems once and for all. I do tend to be slow going- since the last thing I want to do is turn contributing into a chore, I only do it when I'm in the mood to trawl through mountains of black on white :dizzy:
    Real life is balanced.

  5. #25
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Well, I think that JoC would be already happy with guidance and advice
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  6. #26
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Successions, Usurpers, and Civil Wars

    I put here for reference the relevant definitions of the traits related to the "Usurper System". They are useful to be read with the annotated by VineFynn SSHIP 0.9.2 EDCT.
    (mind that it's not about Loyalty and rebellions, but about Throne Successions, Usurpers and Civil Wars)

    Code:
    ;********* FACTION LEADER/FACTION HEIR TRAITS *********;------------------------------------------ 
    Trait Factionleader
    Characters family
     
    Level Posible_Heir
    Description Posible_Heir_desc
    EffectsDescription Posible_Heir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 3
    
    
    Level Heir_Apparent
    Description Heir_Apparent_desc
    EffectsDescription Heir_Apparent_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect Authority 3
    Effect Loyalty 2
    Effect PersonalSecurity 2
    Effect LocalPopularity 1
    Effect Fertility 1 
    Effect Level 1 
      
    
    Level Faction_Leader
    Description Faction_Leader_desc
    EffectsDescription Faction_Leader_effects_desc
    Threshold 3 
     
    Effect PersonalSecurity 3
    Effect LocalPopularity 2 
    Effect Fertility 2
    Effect Level 2
       
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait PrincessFactionHeir
    Characters princess
    
    Level PrincessFactionHeir
    Description PrincessFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription PrincessFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait WifeIsFactionHeir
    Characters family
    
    Level WifeWasFactionHeir
    Description WifeWasFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription WifeWasFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    
    Level WifeIsFactionHeir
    Description WifeIsFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription WifeIsFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Usurper
    Characters family
    
    Level Posible_UsurperHeir
    Description Posible_UsurperHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription Posible_UsurperHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 2
    Effect Loyalty -2
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect MovementPoints -5 
    Effect LocalPopularity -1 
    
    
    Level UsurperHeir
    Description UsurperHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription UsurperHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect Level 1
    Effect Authority 2 
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect Loyalty 1 
    Effect MovementPoints -10 
    Effect LocalPopularity -2 
        
    
    Level Weak_Usurper
    Description Weak_Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Weak_Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale -2
    Effect TaxCollection -10 
    Effect MovementPoints -20
        
    
    Level Usurper
    Description Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 4 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect Chivalry -1
    Effect MovementPoints -25
       
    
    Level Strong_Usurper
    Description Strong_Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Strong_Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 5 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale 1
    Effect Chivalry -2
    Effect MovementPoints -30
      
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait HeroAndRogue
    Characters family
    
    Level FallFromGrace
    Description FallFromGrace_desc
    EffectsDescription FallFromGrace_effects_desc
    Epithet FallFromGrace_epithet_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect TroopMorale -2
    Effect LocalPopularity -2
    Effect Attack 2
    Effect Defence -2
       
    Level Redeemed
    Description Redeemed_desc
    EffectsDescription Redeemed_effects_desc
    Epithet Redeemed_epithet_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect TroopMorale 1
    Effect LocalPopularity 1
    Effect Attack 1
    Effect Defence -1
    
    Level HeroOfTheLand
    Description HeroOfTheLand_desc
    EffectsDescription HeroOfTheLand_effects_desc
    Epithet HeroOfTheLand_epithet_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect Authority 2
    Effect TroopMorale 2
    Effect LocalPopularity 2
    Effect Command 2
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait UsurperInCourt
    Characters family
    
    Level KingNotRightful
    Description KingNotRightful_desc
    EffectsDescription KingNotRightful_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Loyalty -10
    Effect MovementPoints -18 
     
    
    Level WeakUsurperKing
    Description WeakUsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription WeakUsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -1
    Effect Loyalty -6
    Effect MovementPoints -12 
       
    
    Level UsurperKing
    Description UsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription UsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -2
    Effect Loyalty -4
    Effect MovementPoints -8 
        
    Level StrongUsurperKing
    Description StrongUsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription StrongUsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 4 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -3
    Effect Loyalty -2
    Effect MovementPoints -4 
        
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait BastardHeir
    Characters family
    
    
    Level BastardHeir
    Description BastardHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription BastardHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
       
    Effect PersonalSecurity -1
    Effect Authority 1
    
    
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait IWantTheCrown
    Characters family
    
    
    Level IWantTheCrown
    Description IWantTheCrown_desc
    EffectsDescription IWantTheCrown_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 1
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    
    
    ***********************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait FactionRegent
    Characters family
     
    Level FactionFutureRegent
    Description FactionFutureRegent_desc
    EffectsDescription FactionFutureRegent_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
     
    Effect PersonalSecurity 1
    Effect Authority 1
    Effect Level 1
     
    Level FactionRegent
    Description FactionRegent_desc
    EffectsDescription FactionRegent_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    
    Effect Command 1
    Effect PersonalSecurity 2
    Effect Level 2
    
    
    ***************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Obedient
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Disobedient
     
    Level Obedient1
    Description Obedient1_desc
    EffectsDescription Obedient1_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect Loyalty 2
     
    Level Obedient2
    Description Obedient2_desc
    EffectsDescription Obedient2_effects_desc
    Threshold 2
     
    Effect Loyalty 4
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Disobedient
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Obedient
     
    Level Disobedient1
    Description Disobedient1_desc
    EffectsDescription Disobedient1_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect Loyalty -5
    Effect Law -10
    Effect Unrest 10
    Effect LocalPopularity -10
    Effect MovementPoints -250 
     
    ****************************************
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Offensive_To_Nobles
    Characters family
     
    Level Offensive1
    Description Offensive1_desc
    EffectsDescription Offensive1_effects_desc
    GainMessage Offensive1_gain_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect LocalPopularity -1 
     
    Level Offensive2
    Description Offensive2_desc
    EffectsDescription Offensive2_effects_desc
    GainMessage Offensive2_gain_desc
    LoseMessage Offensive2_lose_desc
    Threshold 2
     
    Effect LocalPopularity -2
    
    *********************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait BastardSon
     Characters family
     AntiTraits BiologicalSon 
     
     Level BastardSon
       Description BastardSon_desc
       EffectsDescription BastardSon_effects_desc
       Epithet BastardSon_epithet_desc
       Threshold 1
    
    
       Effect LocalPopularity -1
       Effect Authority 1
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 29, 2018 at 02:28 PM.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    CSpeaking of which, interesting observation: the check if a usurpation succeeds or not has nothing to do with the strength of the usurper- rather, the game simply checks if you have a usurper every turn, and if you do, it starts a civil war which scales eith your faction size. The civil war lasts for at most 25 turns- the game has a list of factions that it runs down each turn, one at a time. Each turn it checks the next faction on the list and ends any ongoing civil war and starts a new royal dynasty with the current FL. When it reaches the bottom of the list it wheels around and starts with the first faction on the list again.
    Here is the script.

    Code:
    ;-------------------------- AI + PLAYER -------------------------;
    set_event_counter resistance 0
    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType slave
    inc_event_counter resistance 1
                           
    if I_EventCounter resistance > 25
    set_event_counter resistance 0
    end_if
     
    set_event_counter new_house_spain 0
    … same for 24 factions …….…
       
    if I_EventCounter resistance <= 25
       
    if I_FactionLeaderTrait spain Usurper >= 3
    and I_EventCounter civil_war_spain_going_on = 0 
                   
    set_event_counter civil_war_spain_going_on 1
    historic_event civil_war_spain
    increment_kings_purse spain -1000
              
              
    if I_NumberOfSettlements spain > 2
    faction_emerge slave spain 1 100.0 0.0 1.2 town true
                
    if I_NumberOfSettlements spain > 5
    faction_emerge slave spain 1 100.0 0.0 1.2 town true
                  
    if I_NumberOfSettlements spain > 8
    faction_emerge slave spain 1 100.0 0.0 1.2 town true unused_label1 unused_name 30
                   
    if I_NumberOfSettlements spain > 11
    faction_emerge slave spain 1 100.0 0.0 1.2 town true unused_label1 unused_name 30
                     
    if I_NumberOfSettlements spain > 14
    faction_emerge slave spain 1 100.0 0.0 1.2 town true unused_label1 unused_name 30
    end_if 
    end_if 
    end_if 
    end_if 
    end_if 
              
    end_if
     
    … same for 24 factions …….…
     
    if I_EventCounter resistance = 1
    if I_EventCounter civil_war_spain_going_on = 1
               
    if I_FactionLeaderTrait spain Usurper >= 3
    set_event_counter new_house_spain 1
    end_if
              
    historic_event end_civil_war_spain
    increment_kings_purse spain 1000
    set_event_counter civil_war_spain_going_on 0
    end_if
    end_if
          
    … same for 24 factions …….…
    As VineFynn noticed: it's for the 29 factions, what means we need to change the number 25 into 29.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 30, 2018 at 06:56 PM.

  8. #28
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Successions, Usurpers, and Civil Wars

    I put here for reference the relevant definitions of the traits related to the "Usurper System". They are useful to be read with the annotated by VineFynn SSHIP 0.9.2 EDCT.
    (mind that it's not about Loyalty and rebellions, but about Throne Successions, Usurpers and Civil Wars)

    Code:
    ;********* FACTION LEADER/FACTION HEIR TRAITS *********;------------------------------------------ 
    Trait Factionleader
    Characters family
     
    Level Posible_Heir
    Description Posible_Heir_desc
    EffectsDescription Posible_Heir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 3
    
    
    Level Heir_Apparent
    Description Heir_Apparent_desc
    EffectsDescription Heir_Apparent_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect Authority 3
    Effect Loyalty 2
    Effect PersonalSecurity 2
    Effect LocalPopularity 1
    Effect Fertility 1 
    Effect Level 1 
      
    
    Level Faction_Leader
    Description Faction_Leader_desc
    EffectsDescription Faction_Leader_effects_desc
    Threshold 3 
     
    Effect PersonalSecurity 3
    Effect LocalPopularity 2 
    Effect Fertility 2
    Effect Level 2
       
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait PrincessFactionHeir
    Characters princess
    
    Level PrincessFactionHeir
    Description PrincessFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription PrincessFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait WifeIsFactionHeir
    Characters family
    
    Level WifeWasFactionHeir
    Description WifeWasFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription WifeWasFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    
    Level WifeIsFactionHeir
    Description WifeIsFactionHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription WifeIsFactionHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Usurper
    Characters family
    
    Level Posible_UsurperHeir
    Description Posible_UsurperHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription Posible_UsurperHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 2
    Effect Loyalty -2
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect MovementPoints -5 
    Effect LocalPopularity -1 
    
    
    Level UsurperHeir
    Description UsurperHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription UsurperHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect Level 1
    Effect Authority 2 
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect Loyalty 1 
    Effect MovementPoints -10 
    Effect LocalPopularity -2 
        
    
    Level Weak_Usurper
    Description Weak_Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Weak_Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale -2
    Effect TaxCollection -10 
    Effect MovementPoints -20
        
    
    Level Usurper
    Description Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 4 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect TaxCollection -5
    Effect Chivalry -1
    Effect MovementPoints -25
       
    
    Level Strong_Usurper
    Description Strong_Usurper_desc
    EffectsDescription Strong_Usurper_effects_desc
    Epithet Usurper_epithet_desc
    Threshold 5 
    
    Effect Level 2
    Effect TroopMorale 1
    Effect Chivalry -2
    Effect MovementPoints -30
      
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait HeroAndRogue
    Characters family
    
    Level FallFromGrace
    Description FallFromGrace_desc
    EffectsDescription FallFromGrace_effects_desc
    Epithet FallFromGrace_epithet_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect TroopMorale -2
    Effect LocalPopularity -2
    Effect Attack 2
    Effect Defence -2
       
    Level Redeemed
    Description Redeemed_desc
    EffectsDescription Redeemed_effects_desc
    Epithet Redeemed_epithet_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect TroopMorale 1
    Effect LocalPopularity 1
    Effect Attack 1
    Effect Defence -1
    
    Level HeroOfTheLand
    Description HeroOfTheLand_desc
    EffectsDescription HeroOfTheLand_effects_desc
    Epithet HeroOfTheLand_epithet_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect Authority 2
    Effect TroopMorale 2
    Effect LocalPopularity 2
    Effect Command 2
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait UsurperInCourt
    Characters family
    
    Level KingNotRightful
    Description KingNotRightful_desc
    EffectsDescription KingNotRightful_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Loyalty -10
    Effect MovementPoints -18 
     
    
    Level WeakUsurperKing
    Description WeakUsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription WeakUsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -1
    Effect Loyalty -6
    Effect MovementPoints -12 
       
    
    Level UsurperKing
    Description UsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription UsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 3 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -2
    Effect Loyalty -4
    Effect MovementPoints -8 
        
    Level StrongUsurperKing
    Description StrongUsurperKing_desc
    EffectsDescription StrongUsurperKing_effects_desc
    Threshold 4 
    
    Effect PersonalSecurity -3
    Effect Loyalty -2
    Effect MovementPoints -4 
        
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait BastardHeir
    Characters family
    
    
    Level BastardHeir
    Description BastardHeir_desc
    EffectsDescription BastardHeir_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
       
    Effect PersonalSecurity -1
    Effect Authority 1
    
    
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait IWantTheCrown
    Characters family
    
    
    Level IWantTheCrown
    Description IWantTheCrown_desc
    EffectsDescription IWantTheCrown_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
    
    Effect Authority 1
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    
    
    ***********************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait FactionRegent
    Characters family
     
    Level FactionFutureRegent
    Description FactionFutureRegent_desc
    EffectsDescription FactionFutureRegent_effects_desc
    Threshold 1 
     
    Effect PersonalSecurity 1
    Effect Authority 1
    Effect Level 1
     
    Level FactionRegent
    Description FactionRegent_desc
    EffectsDescription FactionRegent_effects_desc
    Threshold 2 
    
    
    Effect Command 1
    Effect PersonalSecurity 2
    Effect Level 2
    
    
    ***************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Obedient
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Disobedient
     
    Level Obedient1
    Description Obedient1_desc
    EffectsDescription Obedient1_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect Loyalty 2
     
    Level Obedient2
    Description Obedient2_desc
    EffectsDescription Obedient2_effects_desc
    Threshold 2
     
    Effect Loyalty 4
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Disobedient
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Obedient
     
    Level Disobedient1
    Description Disobedient1_desc
    EffectsDescription Disobedient1_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect Loyalty -5
    Effect Law -10
    Effect Unrest 10
    Effect LocalPopularity -10
    Effect MovementPoints -250 
     
    ****************************************
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Offensive_To_Nobles
    Characters family
     
    Level Offensive1
    Description Offensive1_desc
    EffectsDescription Offensive1_effects_desc
    GainMessage Offensive1_gain_desc
    Threshold 1
     
    Effect LocalPopularity -1 
     
    Level Offensive2
    Description Offensive2_desc
    EffectsDescription Offensive2_effects_desc
    GainMessage Offensive2_gain_desc
    LoseMessage Offensive2_lose_desc
    Threshold 2
     
    Effect LocalPopularity -2
    
    *********************************************
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait BastardSon
     Characters family
     AntiTraits BiologicalSon 
     
     Level BastardSon
       Description BastardSon_desc
       EffectsDescription BastardSon_effects_desc
       Epithet BastardSon_epithet_desc
       Threshold 1
    
    
       Effect LocalPopularity -1
       Effect Authority 1
    The obedient and disobedient traits are only relevant to civil wars, iirc. Don't take my word for it, though.
    Last edited by VineFynn; March 29, 2018 at 02:53 PM.
    Real life is balanced.

  9. #29
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    The obedient and disobedient traits are only relevant to civil wars, iirc. Don't take my word for it, though.
    Yes, but Civil wars are part the of the system. They cannot break out without a usurper on the throne, can they?

    I have in mind a guide for the players along points below - what do you think? And, if you feel to, maybe you could help in developing something of this type of story :-)

    1. Heirs and potential usurpers
    2. Succession
    3. Usurper on the throne
    4. Civil wars

    Besides:
    1. as I look at the script, I don't see any relief for the
    2. I like your two additional triggers for plotting.

  10. #30
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yes, but Civil wars are part the of the system. They cannot break out without a usurper on the throne, can they?

    I have in mind a guide for the players along points below - what do you think? And, if you feel to, maybe you could help in developing something of this type of story :-)

    1. Heirs and potential usurpers
    2. Succession
    3. Usurper on the throne
    4. Civil wars

    Besides:
    1. as I look at the script, I don't see any relief for the
    2. I like your two additional triggers for plotting.
    Ah, you see the game (specifically the comments) refers to the general contentedness system and the usurper civil war script as civil wars. I meant the latter.

    I'll likely do that after the new version comes out, when I review the changes. This isn't a submod per se so I didn't originally intend for implementing the changes to be super accessible, just well-justified.

    You missed the 1st point.

    Thanks! I tried to keep the addition of new triggers to a minimum to start with. Best to fix what was already there first imo
    Real life is balanced.

  11. #31
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    I'll likely do that after the new version comes out, when I review the changes. This isn't a submod per se so I didn't originally intend for implementing the changes to be super accessible, just well-justified.

    You missed the 1st point.
    AI.
    Doesn't it hurt the AI much? Especially the big factions where huge distances make FMs less loyal (due to FarLoyalty) what actually makes the difference, eg in acquiring the IWantCrown trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    Best to fix what was already there first imo
    This is exactly my philosophy of modding :-)

  12. #32
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    AI.
    Doesn't it hurt the AI much? Especially the big factions where huge distances make FMs less loyal (due to FarLoyalty) what actually makes the difference, eg in acquiring the IWantCrown trait.


    This is exactly my philosophy of modding :-)
    Hmm, no, there isn't any AI relief. The original dev comments often say if the "AI is fine with this" (how they knew this, Idk, testing probably), and they seemed to think the AI was fine with the loyalty/civilwar system.

    But you remind me- I don't recall how the Crusade system works, but I'd be making total exceptions to the loyalty/disloyalty system for crusading generals. For both player and AI.

    In my experience the AI doesn't actually suffer too badly though- they are quite reasonable by default with where their armies go. Indeed, that might be reason enough to remove the FarLoyalty/NearLoyalty etc stuff altogether for the AI. No point having a rewards or punishments system if the rewards and punishments don't change the AIs behaviour.


    As far as the usurper system goes- I actually don't think the AI should have any relief. The AI usually parks their leader in the capital except in times of war when they are out, well, being authoritative, so they are quite sensible there. Outside of that, we definitely *want* the AI to have usurpers. But I don't want any particular faction to have more or less usurpers because its a player or not. Usurpations are kind of something you can't control, which means the player and the AI are more or less equally incompetent at dealing with them (the intention of the changes was to remove that irritating thing where you get weak usurpers when there are plenty of decent rightful heirs, so killing your fl or fh should no longer be an option for a savvy player to get out of a usurpation). The AI already has automatic bonuses to loyalty and authority, so they should be getting stronger usurpers and having an easier time avoiding defections to rebels than the player anyway.

    Besides, one thing I definitely do want to do is make killing an FL feel like a realistic blow to your enemy (i.e. don't kill your enemy's bad king), and losing your FL to potentially be a real "oh " moment. The changes are intended more than anything to make the system more consistent. Less completely random usurpations, more "oh dear I just lost my only heir and the heir presumptive isn't exactly a paragon of virtue". Meeting player expectations halfway, that sort of thing.

    If we want to nerf faction leader sniping, I'd just add an additional +1 authority to every AI character via a bonus trait. That will further strengthen any usurpations so the AI won't be quite so crippled when they inexplicably have their king walking around the middle of a warzone, alone.
    Last edited by VineFynn; March 29, 2018 at 04:58 PM.
    Real life is balanced.

  13. #33
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    A modified plan for coding and for a guide is:
    1. Getting to be an usurper (IWantCrown, Usurper 1)
    2. Becoming Heir (ValidHeir, BecomingHeir, Bastards)

    3. Accession to the throne (smooth succession, usurpers on the throne)
    4. Backlash to a usurper (UsurpernInCourt, HeroAndRogue)
    5. Civil strife
    6. Civil war

    Civil strife and civil war



    I'm starting from the end of my plan taking on the risks associated with a change on the throne. One may get somewhat confused (and I did) in this respect. It's because there are two kinds of effects both called "civil war" (ehm, I guess that there're two different modders active in this part and they didn't bother to differentiate the names).


    The first is related to the Usurper system and has already been described by VineFynn. It's defined mainly in the script in campaign_script.txt, but partially also in EDCT. It results in some cities revolting, but then in Usurper establishing a new royal house.
    The second concerns the ascension of an FM with too low Authority on the throne. It may result in him getting a trait "Offensive to Nobles" and some of the generals getting Disobedient trait. It’s not, however, related to the Usurper system.
    I would propose to call them 1) civil war, 2) civil strife. If you've got better names, just let me know.


    1) CIVIL WAR
    (see here for the code and discussion)
    - the script is triggered by having any-level usurper as the FL.
    - it results in between 1 and 5 cities rebelling from the faction (depending on its size) plus there's a -1000 decrease of King' Purse income.
    - it ends between 1 and 25 turns after it has started what means the 1000 income is back, the New Royal House is established and the Usurper trait is deleted from the FL and usurping generals (I still need to find out what happens to the UsurperHeir).


    Current SSHIP 0.9.2 - text descriptions from EV (export_vnvs.txt)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    {Posible_Heir_desc}This man is a valid heir to the crown.{Posible_Heir_effects_desc}+3 Authority
    {Posible_Heir}Rightful Heir
    {Posible_UsurperHeir_desc}This man is not happy with the current political situation. Given the chance, he will try to grab the power for himself.
    {Posible_UsurperHeir_effects_desc}+3 Authority, -2 Loyalty, -1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, 5% malus on tax income
    {Posible_UsurperHeir}Plotting
    {IWantTheCrown_desc}This man represents and stands for different values than our king.
    {IWantTheCrown_effects_desc}increased Authority, -1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield
    {IWantTheCrown}Unhappy with the Leadership
    {UsurperHeir_desc}This man is plotting to take control of the realm.
    {UsurperHeir_effects_desc}+1 Loyalty, -1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, 5% malus on tax income
    {UsurperHeir}Usurping
    {Weak_Usurper_desc}This man is an usurper!
    {Weak_Usurper_effects_desc}-2 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, 10% malus on tax income
    {Weak_Usurper}Usurper
    {Usurper_desc}This man is an usurper!
    {Usurper_effects_desc}-1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, 5% malus on tax income, +1 Dread
    {Usurper}Usurper
    {KingNotRightful_desc}Honour prevents this man from obeying the usurper.
    {KingNotRightful_effects_desc}-10 Loyalty, -90% to movement points (decreases movement range)
    {KingNotRightful}Leader Cannot Prevail
    {WeakUsurperKing_desc}There is an usurper in the throne!
    {WeakUsurperKing_effects_desc}-6 Loyalty, -60% to movement points (decreases movement range), -1 from personal security (decreases the chances of foiling assassination attempts)
    {WeakUsurperKing}Leader Is Weak Usurper
    {Strong_Usurper_desc}This man is an usurper!
    {Strong_Usurper_effects_desc}+1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, +2 Dread
    {Strong_Usurper}Usurper
    {UsurperKing_desc}There is an usurper in the throne!
    {UsurperKing_effects_desc}-4 Loyalty, -40% to movement points (decreases movement range), -2 from personal security (decreases the chances of foiling assassination attempts)
    {UsurperKing}Leader Is Usurper
    {StrongUsurperKing_desc}There is an usurper in the throne!
    {StrongUsurperKing_effects_desc}-2 Loyalty, -20% to movement points (decreases movement range), -3 from personal security (decreases the chances of foiling assassination attempts)
    {StrongUsurperKing}Leader Is Strong Usurper
    {UsurperRightful_desc}That man is the rightful leader!
    {UsurperRightful_effects_desc}+2 Loyalty
    {UsurperRightful}Leader Is Rightful
    {BastardHeir_desc}This man hasn't been chosen heir for his blood, precisely...
    {BastardHeir_effects_desc}-1 from personal security (decreases the chances of foiling assassination attempts)
    {BastardHeir}Bastard Heir
    {PrincessFactionHeir_desc}This woman may breed future heirs.
    {PrincessFactionHeir_effects_desc}No effects
    {PrincessFactionHeir}Princess Is Faction Heir
    {WifeWasFactionHeir_desc}This man's wife could have produced possible heirs, but thanks to the character of this man the nobles won't accept his sons anymore.
    {WifeWasFactionHeir_effects_desc}No effects
    {WifeWasFactionHeir}Wife was royal
    {WifeIsFactionHeir_desc}This man's wife has royal relations, meaning his sons can be rightful heirs to the throne.
    {WifeIsFactionHeir_effects_desc}No effects
    {WifeIsFactionHeir}Royal Wife
    {FallFromGrace_desc}This man has fallen from grace. Only heroic actions will redeem his honour.
    {FallFromGrace_effects_desc}-2 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, -2 Command when attacking, +2 Command when defending, -2 from popularity (reduces public order)
    {FallFromGrace}Fallen from Grace
    {Redeemed_desc}This man has been redeemed for his heroic actions.
    {Redeemed_effects_desc}+1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, -1 Command when attacking, +1 Command when defending, +1 to popularity (increases public order)
    {Redeemed}Redeemed
    {HeroOfTheLand_desc}This man has shown brave resistance to an usurper and has therefore been granted this title.
    {HeroOfTheLand_effects_desc}+2 Command, +2 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, +2 to popularity (increases public order)
    {HeroOfTheLand}Knight of the Land
    {Usurper_epithet_desc}the Usurper
    {Redeemed_epithet_desc}the Redeemed
    {HeroOfTheLand_epithet_desc}the Hero
    {FallFromGrace_epithet_desc}the Rogue


    2) CIVIL STRIFE
    It’s not related to the Usurper system!

    a) Offensive to Nobles
    - if a new FM ascends to the throne and has low Authority, it can get an "Offensive_to_Nobles" (OtN) trait. It scales with the size of the kingdom (5% if it has more than 5 settlements and authority less than 3, another 5% for 10 settlements an Authority 4, another 5% for 20 and 5). It’s checked only once: in the moment of accession to the throne. There’re also triggers working in the opposite direction (removing OtN), but they don’t make any sense (see below).
    - if the faction is in debt, there's a 5% chance every turn to get that OtN. The same is for excommunication.
    - if the trait is got, there's 3% chance of perpetuation every turn to progress to the second level; and an additional 5% perpetuation if the FL is far away from the capital (50 tiles),
    - however, there’s only one trigger for it to be lost: a Heroic victory (33% chance).


    It seems to me, this mechanism doesn’t work in a right way.
    The triggers for “OtN” fire only "WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader". The triggers for removal also fire only "WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader". This doesn’t make sense – they won’t ever fire. I actually suspect that the original creator of the script put here something “WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd”, but then somebody else just wanted to make it softer and changed it in a way it doesn’t make sense.
    As a result, the chance to OtN are pretty low, but if the FM gets it, it has to fight a number of Heroic victories to get rid of it. And he need to do it quickly because of perpetuation. I don’t think it’s justifiable.


    b) Obedient / Disobedient trait
    Once the FL gets OtN trait, his generals may get either of those traits. Disobedient is quite negative (see here).
    This part of the system looks to be working well, but I have 4 small concerns:
    1. The probability of getting Obedient is quite high, while for Disobedient quite low. So you’re offensive to your nobles and they mostly get Obedient?
    2. Disobedient is to be gotten only in settlements, while Obedient everywhere. Why it’s so? I think both should be gotten in the settlements (news spread there, political contacts are made etc.). (We need to think how to cope with a crusading/jihading generals so that they’re excluded).
    3. The only factor for acquiring it is Loyalty. Maybe we can introduce something more complicated? Chivalry, Piety?
    4. The Obedient has 2 levels, with much Loyalty boost. I wonder why it's needed? Furthermore, it’s a lost chance to provide for some variations.


    I’ll think how to fix these issues and prepare the code.


    Current SSHIP 0.9.2 EDCT code, with VineFynn's comments:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger low_auth_add_offensive_small_empire ; if your authority is too low you piss off your vassals
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 5
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority < 4


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 5

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger high_auth_remove_offensive_small_empire ; opposite effect
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles > 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 5
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority >= 4


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles -1 Chance 50

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger low_auth_add_offensive_medium_empire ; more authority necessary to hold together a big empire
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 10
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority < 5


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 5


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger high_auth_remove_offensive_medium_empire
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles > 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 10
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority >= 5


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles -1 Chance 50

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger low_auth_add_offensive_large_empire
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 20
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority < 6


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 5

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger high_auth_remove_offensive_large_empire
    WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles > 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 20
    and FactionLeaderAttribute Authority >= 6


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles -1 Chance 50

    ;------------------------------------------
    ;Nation in debt!
    Trigger Disgust_with_King's_Unreasonable_Finances
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 0
    and IsFactionLeader
    and Treasury < 0
    and SettlementsTaken >= 5
    and Attribute Authority <= 5
    and FactionIsLocal


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 5


    ;------------------------------------------
    ;Excommunication!
    Trigger Disgust_with_King's_Religiona
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition FactionExcommunicated
    and IsFactionLeader
    and SettlementsTaken >= 5
    and Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 0
    and CharacterReligion catholic
    and Attribute Authority <= 5
    and FactionIsLocal


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 5


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger civil_war_or_not_progress
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition IsFactionLeader
    and Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 1


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 3


    ;------------------------------------------
    ;since the king isn't around... let's check again...
    Trigger civil_war_or_not_progress_expedite
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition IsFactionLeader
    and DistanceCapital >= 50
    and Trait Offensive_To_Nobles = 1
    and FactionIsLocal


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles 1 Chance 3


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Authority_Loss_Over_Time
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition IsFactionLeader
    and Trait Offensive_To_Nobles > 1
    and Attribute Authority > 1


    Affects KingsAuthority -1 Chance 5


    ;------------------------------------------
    ;Disobedient = 0 is the initial step- no returning back...
    ;only really need one level for this
    Trigger Civil_War_Loyal_General1
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Offensive_To_Nobles = 2
    and IsGeneral
    and Trait Disobedient = 0
    and Trait Obedient = 0
    and Attribute Loyalty >= 5
    and not IsFactionLeader


    Affects Obedient 1 Chance 50


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Civil_War_Rebel_General1
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Offensive_To_Nobles = 2
    and IsGeneral
    and Trait Disobedient = 0
    and Trait Obedient = 0
    and Attribute Loyalty < 5
    and not IsFactionLeader


    Affects Obedient 1 Chance 3


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Civil_War_Rebel_General2
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement


    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Offensive_To_Nobles = 2
    and IsGeneral
    and Trait Far_Loyalty > 1
    and Trait Disobedient = 0
    and not Trait Obedient = 1
    and Attribute Loyalty < 5
    and not IsFactionLeader


    Affects Disobedient 1 Chance 5


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Civil_War_Rebel_General3
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement


    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Offensive_To_Nobles = 2
    and IsGeneral
    and Trait Far_Loyalty > 2
    and Trait Disobedient = 0
    and not Trait Obedient = 1
    and Attribute Loyalty < 5
    and not IsFactionLeader


    Affects Disobedient 1 Chance 10


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Slaves_Cant_Have_Civil_War
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


    Condition IsGeneral
    and Trait Disobedient >= 1
    and FactionType slave


    Affects Obedient 1 Chance 100


    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Battle_HeroicBattleCommander2
    WhenToTest PostBattle


    Condition IsFactionLeader
    and Trait Offensive_To_Nobles > 1
    and WonBattle
    and PercentageEnemyKilled > 25
    and BattleOdds < 0.51


    Affects Offensive_To_Nobles -1 Chance 33


    Current SSHIP 0.9.2 - text descriptions from EV (export_vnvs.txt)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    {Offensive1_desc}For whatever reason, you have gravely offended some of your nobility.
    {Offensive1_effects_desc}Generals choosing sides for a potential conflict
    {Offensive1_gain_desc}I am afraid, my Lord, that you are not as popular with your nobility as you would wish. It would be best to ensure that your authority is strong and that you do not stray too far from your capital. Perhaps a few heroic battles, or a church building program might help?
    {Offensive1}Not Respected By Our Nobility
    {Offensive2_desc}What was once a political divide between you and your nobility has widened into a chasm... Some have chosen to follow their king... others have chose to fight you to the death.
    {Offensive2_effects_desc}Greater chance of generals gaining/losing loyalty, imminent rebellion
    {Offensive2_gain_desc}I am afraid, my Lord, that you are not popular with your nobility at all. Open rebellion is now a strong possibility, so ensure that your authority is strong and that you do not stray to far from your capital.
    {Offensive2_lose_desc}My Lord, your efforts to recognise your people's concerns and quell any rebellion within your empire have been noticed by your nobility. People are now more confident in your leadership.
    {Offensive2}Seen As A Fool Of A Leader

    {Obedient1_desc}This man appears to have chosen to side with the current king, while recognising that others appear to be hinting that another man should be king.
    {Obedient1_effects_desc}+2 Loyalty
    {Obedient1}Obedient to His Liege
    {Obedient2_desc}This man has thrown his measure in for the King! He has pledged his life to his liege unto the end.
    {Obedient2_effects_desc}+4 Loyalty
    {Obedient2}Royalist

    {Disobedient1_desc}This man has declares this town to be the capital of his new empire
    {Disobedient1_effects_desc}-5 Loyalty, -10 from law (reduces public order), -10 from popularity (reduces public order), +50 to unrest (reduces public order), -200 movement points
    {Disobedient1}Building his own Empire
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 02, 2018 at 01:36 PM.

  14. #34
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Victoria, Australia
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    A modified plan for coding and for a guide is:
    1. Getting to be an usurper (IWantCrown, Usurper 1)
    2. Becoming Heir (ValidHeir, BecomingHeir, Bastards)

    3. Accession to the throne (smooth succession, usurpers on the throne)
    4. Backlash to a usurper (UsurpernInCourt, HeroAndRogue)
    5. Civil strife
    6. Civil war

    Civil strife and civil war



    I'm starting from the end of my plan taking on the risks associated with a change on the throne. One may get somewhat confused (and I did) in this respect. It's because there are two kinds of effects both called "civil war" (ehm, I guess that there're two different modders active in this part and they didn't bother to differentiate the names).


    The first is related to the Usurper system and has already been described by VineFynn. It's defined mainly in the script in campaign_script.txt, but partially also in EDCT. It results in some cities revolting, but then in Usurper establishing a new royal house.
    The second concerns the ascension of an FM with too low Authority on the throne. It may result in him getting a trait "Offensive to Nobles" and some of the generals getting Disobedient trait. It’s not, however, related to the Usurper system.
    I would propose to call them 1) civil war, 2) civil strife. If you've got better names, just let me know.
    Excellent renaming idea.

    1) CIVIL WAR
    (see here for the code and discussion)
    - the script is triggered by having any-level usurper as the FL.
    - it results in between 1 and 5 cities rebelling from the faction (depending on its size) plus there's a -1000 decrease of King' Purse income.
    - it ends between 1 and 25 turns after it has started what means the 1000 income is back, the New Royal House is established and the Usurper trait is deleted from the FL and usurping generals (I still need to find out what happens to the UsurperHeir).
    If you remember, there is a trigger in EDCT that removes the usurper trait from Rightful heirs- and since there's a trigger that makes all sons of a royal house founder biological (which we need to change btw, need to make it so that there's a preceding check deleting any levels in bastardson), and all biological sons of a factionleader = 3 are rightful heirs, and all biological sons of rightful heirs are rightful heirs (and so on), any usurperheir that isn't from the new royal house (i.e. not simply a completely different usurper) are made into Factionleader = 2.

    2) CIVIL STRIFE
    It’s not related to the Usurper system!

    a) Offensive to Nobles
    - if a new FM ascends to the throne and has low Authority, it can get an "Offensive_to_Nobles" (OtN) trait. It scales with the size of the kingdom (5% if it has more than 5 settlements and authority less than 3, another 5% for 10 settlements an Authority 4, another 5% for 20 and 5). It’s checked only once: in the moment of accession to the throne. There’re also triggers working in the opposite direction (removing OtN), but they don’t make any sense (see below).
    - if the faction is in debt, there's a 5% chance every turn to get that OtN. The same is for excommunication.
    - if the trait is got, there's 3% chance of perpetuation every turn to progress to the second level; and an additional 5% perpetuation if the FL is far away from the capital (50 tiles),
    - however, there’s only one trigger for it to be lost: a Heroic victory (33% chance).

    It seems to me, this mechanism doesn’t work in a right way.
    The triggers for “OtN” fire only "WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader". The triggers for removal also fire only "WhenToTest BecomesFactionLeader". This doesn’t make sense – they won’t ever fire. I actually suspect that the original creator of the script put here something “WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd”, but then somebody else just wanted to make it softer and changed it in a way it doesn’t make sense.
    As a result, the chance to OtN are pretty low, but if the FM gets it, it has to fight a number of Heroic victories to get rid of it. And he need to do it quickly because of perpetuation. I don’t think it’s justifiable.

    b) Obedient / Disobedient trait
    Once the FL gets OtN trait, his generals may get either of those traits. Disobedient is quite negative (see here).
    This part of the system looks to be working well, but I have 4 small concerns:
    1. The probability of getting Obedient is quite high, while for Disobedient quite low. So you’re offensive to your nobles and they mostly get Obedient?
    2. Disobedient is to be gotten only in settlements, while Obedient everywhere. Why it’s so? I think both should be gotten in the settlements (news spread there, political contacts are made etc.). (We need to think how to cope with a crusading/jihading generals so that they’re excluded).
    3. The only factor for acquiring it is Loyalty. Maybe we can introduce something more complicated? Chivalry, Piety?
    4. The Obedient has 2 levels, with much Loyalty boost. I wonder why it's needed? Furthermore, it’s a lost chance to provide for some variations.


    I’ll think how to fix these issues and prepare the code.
    When I looked at this I was similarly confused, it didn't seem sensical to me either- but I wasn't interested in the civil strife code, I just included it because it was related to King Authority which was going to be more important in the changed code. Hence the relative lack of triggers (the devs included a bunch, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me anyway). Definitely the obedient and disobedient traits seem.. actually kinda too much? Disobedient should be toned down. It's disobedient, not treasonous, and moreover we don't want this to just feel like a different name for a usurpation.

    One thing- there are other triggers in the code which reduce loyalty for generals with differing chiv to the FL (in any circumstance), and vice versa. So keep that in mind in case there's a chanceof doubling up on penalties/probabilities. Having said that if we want to do the same thing with different conditions, go right ahead. Like making disobedience have a lower loyalty requirement (say, 3 instead of 5) *if* a character is chivalrous.

    If we do it every turn it should go without saying that we turn down the chances involved. Like from Chance 5 for each tick to 1. 20 (10 years) turns with low authority in a big empire is a pretty reasonable average time for a king with low authority to stir up trouble. Thinking like Wenceslaus IV in the HRE. Plus 20 turns is plenty of time for authority to tick up by other means.

    Also yeah the entire EDCT was definitely made by two different people, I think. There's two different design philosophies evident across the file- one which sets up basic frameworks for loyalties changing based on differences with the ruler, authority changing over time based on circumstance and that sort of thing, and then there's the other stuff which is very much for-purpose (like the usurper system) and seems to ignore or double up on the frameworks present made by the other guy. Obviously there's stuff they've stuck in by other people like the Byzantium traits which exacerbate this problem. Consolidating this stuff will do a lot of good for the coherence of the code.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention the HeroandRogue was definitely not finished- like WifeisFactionHeir, there's a level that the game doesn't use or simply treats as the same as the rest of the levels. I personally think we should get rid of it. It's bizarre and even with my fix ends up rewarding "Hero of the Land" to people who resisted the current King's dad (originally would just grant it the moment the new royal house was founded). Doesn't make any sense and it's kind of out of tone with the rest of the mod.
    Last edited by VineFynn; March 30, 2018 at 04:29 PM.
    Real life is balanced.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    HeroAndRogue should be eliminated or tweak, it always goes to the person to the character that usually resisted the rule of the FL after a strife.

  16. #36
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Cracovia
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Thanks for the explanations!

    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    When I looked at this I was similarly confused, it didn't seem sensical to me either- but I wasn't interested in the civil strife code, I just included it because it was related to King Authority which was going to be more important in the changed code. Hence the relative lack of triggers (the devs included a bunch, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me anyway). Definitely the obedient and disobedient traits seem.. actually kinda too much? Disobedient should be toned down. It's disobedient, not treasonous, and moreover we don't want this to just feel like a different name for a usurpation. .
    We need to think and produce a concept what’s actually the difference between Civil Strife, the UsurperInCourt and IWantTheCrown/Usurper. All of them signify dis-obedient nobles but there're overlaps.
    Disobedient – this is a real rebellion now. Indeed, we need to tone it down once we know what does it convey.
    Obedient – in the concept I've now in mind it should also lose Loyalty, but to a lesser extent (If the ruler is Offensive to you, you lose Loyalty even if you keep on behaving loyal).
    Triggers – there’re no clean-up triggers, so if a general get’s Obedient/Disobedient, it stays till death. We need to work out the triggers of how to get back to normalcy.
    Furthermore, we also need to get rid of the Antitrait thing. Just look at this one:
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger Civil_War_Cleanup_King1
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

    Condition IsFactionLeader
    and Trait Obedient = 1

    Affects Disobedient 1 Chance 100


    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    When I looked at this I was similarly confused, it didn't seem sensical to me either- but I wasn't interested in the civil strife code, I just included it because it was related to King Authority which was going to be more important in the changed code. Hence the relative lack of triggers (the devs included a bunch, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me anyway). Definitely the obedient and disobedient traits seem.. actually kinda too much? Disobedient should be toned down. It's disobedient, not treasonous, and moreover we don't want this to just feel like a different name for a usurpation.

    One thing- there are other triggers in the code which reduce loyalty for generals with differing chiv to the FL (in any circumstance), and vice versa. So keep that in mind in case there's a chanceof doubling up on penalties/probabilities. Having said that if we want to do the same thing with different conditions, go right ahead. Like making disobedience have a lower loyalty requirement (say, 3 instead of 5) *if* a character is chivalrous.

    If we do it every turn it should go without saying that we turn down the chances involved. Like from Chance 5 for each tick to 1. 20 (10 years) turns with low authority in a big empire is a pretty reasonable average time for a king with low authority to stir up trouble. Thinking like Wenceslaus IV in the HRE. Plus 20 turns is plenty of time for authority to tick up by other means.

    Also yeah the entire EDCT was definitely made by two different people, I think. There's two different design philosophies evident across the file- one which sets up basic frameworks for loyalties changing based on differences with the ruler, authority changing over time based on circumstance and that sort of thing, and then there's the other stuff which is very much for-purpose (like the usurper system) and seems to ignore or double up on the frameworks present made by the other guy. Obviously there's stuff they've stuck in by other people like the Byzantium traits which exacerbate this problem. Consolidating this stuff will do a lot of good for the coherence of the code.
    This is something that is badly needed to be done.


    Quote Originally Posted by VineFynn View Post
    EDIT: Forgot to mention the HeroandRogue was definitely not finished- like WifeisFactionHeir, there's a level that the game doesn't use or simply treats as the same as the rest of the levels. I personally think we should get rid of it. It's bizarre and even with my fix ends up rewarding "Hero of the Land" to people who resisted the current King's dad (originally would just grant it the moment the new royal house was founded). Doesn't make any sense and it's kind of out of tone with the rest of the mod.
    Let’s wait and think how can we re-invent those traits. I always prefer finishing and re-use of existing things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyres Δt Varanasi View Post
    HeroAndRogue should be eliminated or tweak, it always goes to the person to the character that usually resisted the rule of the FL after a strife.
    Thanks, Pyres! If you 've got more insights, please share!
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 30, 2018 at 06:50 PM.

  17. #37
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Below is a vision of how the "Loyalty engine" should look like in the SSHIP. It's done for reference to make sorting things out easier. However, this is not yet fully in the code of SSHIP 0.9.2 (in the files at the end of this thread there're some fixes: Near/Far Loyalty, usurper problems etc.).

    The Loyalty engine

    This part of modding is related to the generals’ Loyalty. It defines the risk of a general defecting from the faction but has also an impact on other triggers. In particular, it plays a big role in the change of the ruler on the throne, and in the reaction of generals to the ruler’s deeds or character features. It swings very often during the game for each general, due to the overall game situation, the faction situation, the traits of the FL and, especially, to the activities and situation of the general.

    The most important thing concerning modding Loyalty is to ensure balance. All the traits and triggers cannot let the player have “easy shots” at Loyalty, but they also should not make the game unplayable (situation when whatever the player does, he ends up with 0 Loyalty). So interactions and possible spill-overs are to be taken into account whenever a benefit/negative of Loyalty is concerned.

    For clarity: Authority is very closely related to the mechanisms involving Loyalty. Authority is important mainly for the king, but sometimes it plays in other situations: becoming an Heir or in the Usurper mechanism. In my
    modding I’d also like to make it somehow important for the other nobles – for instance in getting some traits in the GTCS, see here. However, in this part of modding I abstain from this issue: I take the FL’s authority for granted.

    Nomenclature:
    * let us reserve the use of word “Defection” only to a situation when a low-Loyalty general turns rebel: for the M2TW engine is considered to be a “slave” faction general. So “defection” is an engine mechanism, not something we mod in the traits.
    * “Rebellion” is a situation when citizens of a settlement rebels from the faction. However, sometimes the word is used in relation to “defection” (a rebel general), and also in the traits related to low(
    ering) Loyalty or mechanisms of the nobles’ unrest and traits like as IWantCrown, UsurperInCourt, Disobedient. However, for clarity, it’s better to be avoided.


    Elements of the Loyalty engine

    A) Acquiring/losing Loyalty
    A1) The main Loyalty traits: four traits aiming at defining loyalty of a general. These are: “starter” (3 initial Loyalty points given to any general at the beginning of the game or at Coming of Age), Loyal/Disloyal – stable feature of character of a general, Near/FarLoyalty – related to his distance from capital, Content/Discontent General – how the general feels at the moment.
    A2) Traits changing “Loyalty” attribute as a primary or a side effect – some may provide for ubiquitous Loyalty changes (like provincial titles, some Bloods), but they’re still side effects of other matters. The examples of other traits are: Poulains, AbsentMindedGeneral, Education, Humane, Envious of Heir, Bad Commander, Feck, Stoic, Auster, DeceiverVirtue, Upright, Loves/Hates Father.
    A3) Special mechanisms related to the interaction of the generals and the FL (Usurper, Civil Strife)

    B) Effects of Loyalty
    B1) Basic effect is that of the M2TW game engine: a low Loyalty general turns rebel. There’re some moddable parameters to is. It’s important to remember that 1) a general cannot rebel while in a settlement, 2) we may differentiate the propensity-to-rebel of the general having the same Loyalty between the player and the AI.
    B2) Influence of Loyalty on the appearance of the other traits (ie. Loyalty included as a condition in the triggers).
    B3) role of Loyalty in the special mechanisms related to the interaction of the generals and the FL (Usurper, Civil Strife), culminating in the events during the changes on the throne.

    As mentioned, everything has to be balanced so that each of the mechanisms functions well separately, but also all together. It must be ensured that there’re no loopholes, like in the WotN. However, balancing is to be assessed at the end of modding – we’ll fiddle with probabilities and values. We need to concentrate on some blocks first, so, let’s skip for now A2 and B2 – they’ll be done by way of modding other traits, like in my GTCS.

    So the mechanisms to be dealt with here are:
    (A) Main Loyalty traits.
    (B) Usurper mechanism.
    (C) Civil Strife mechanism.


    (A) Main Loyalty traits

    I. Primary traits defining Loyalty
    * LoyaltyStarter – gives every player’s general 3 Loyalty at CoA (Coming of Age) (5 for the AI).
    * Loyal/Disloyal – this is a feature of the character of a general he gets at CoA. The starting value is partly accidental, partly depending on the traits of his parents, (maybe) size of the faction at CoA, (maybe) it would vary between factions. It’s stable throughout life, although some significant events may change it (eg. visiting the Holy Land, having seen a cowardly FL or having lived in an excommunicated faction).
    * ContentGeneral/DiscontentGeneral - it describes the current state-of-mind of a general: how does he feel now. He may feel “Appreciated” or “Honoured”, but also “Dishonoured”. It swings often according to the events in his life and in the general politics.
    * NearLoyalty/FarLoyalty – this conveys the concept that a general having close contacts with the ruler (meeting him frequently, living in the neighborhood) is more loyal that somebody living on the outskirts of the realm. (for the modding purposes there’s also FLNearCapital trait, I'm not yet sure what is the purpose of the Obedient/Disobedient trait).

    II. Secondary traits and ancillaries defining Loyalty

    There are many traits that are quite ubiquitous if the player cares for his generals.
    * Bloodlines: most provide +1 Loyalty (I'll make them all). Caring for keeping your family kin is even more important.
    * Envious of Heir: obviously for brothers of the heir.
    * Education: in my Education of Generals minimod better educated ones are bound to have lower Loyalty. The reasons for this solutions are well-described in that thread.

    A set of ancillaries is crafted to provide the player with "tools" to manage loyalty of the generals:
    * Provincial Titles - in my PTF minimod each provides +1, but I'll make it +1 for any number of offices. Giving a title to a general gives him this +1Loyalty and also buffs up other types of Loyalty (through traits).
    * Offices - each faction has a limited number of offices available (up to 8). I've made them providing Loyalty: +1 for any number of offices held, with Privy Seal adding 1 point more.
    * Crowns - the very fact if the ruler is a crowned one gives him big legitimacy boost and makes a big difference for the nobles. This mechanism will feature well in the SSHIP - have a look at the relevant thread here.


    (B) Usurper mechanism

    I. What does is reflect fro
    m the real life:
    * some nobles in a faction may get unhappy with the current ruler or may feel very confident about themselves and may fantasize about replacing him.
    * this feeling may develop throughout a noble’s life both because of the deeds of the rulers (if he does things the noble dislikes) or due to the general himself (what he does in life, features of character,
    father, and mother etc.).
    * any change on the throne is a special moment for the decision to act: the whole process is a complicated one and various situations may emerge, eg.: 1. A smooth succession of an HeirApparent, 2. A succession of the HeirApparent but with some nobles defying the new ruler, 3. A succession of a Regent with a backlash from some nobles, 4. A succession of a Usurper – with backlash.
    * any change on the throne is a risky business: some provinces may want to use the opportunity and go their way: a civil war may break out. The risk is the greater the less legitimate the ruler is.
    * in particular, the new ruler may have some features that prompt actions of the nobles: low authority, not legitimate descent (being not from the royal house, being regent, usurper or bastard), also young age of a new ruler may be the reason, or maybe an expected change in politics (difference in Piety, difference in Chivalry-Dread).
    * there’re also many features of the generals themselves that may be conducive to the emergence of the will to defy a ruler: low Loyalty, own high Authority, high values of Dread/Command, low values of Piety.
    * however, some generals may take hasty decision to disobey, but then they may change and even redeem themselves.

    II. What are the relevant traits:
    WantTheCrown,
    FactionLeader, FactionRegent, BastardSon, BastardHeir, Usurper, UsurperInCourt, HeroAndRogue, New_Royal_House.

    III. How it happens:

    * this system concerns generals: a general has to change his mind, then he gets the trait IWantTheCrown
    * if he is not loyal (or loses loyalty) he might get the Usurper trait. This is lower his features, but more importantly: creates risk for succession. In particular, there’s a question if the FactionHeir is legitimate, or not (UsurperHeir).
    * when an FL dies, a new one ascends to the throne. He might be a legitimate and the succession proceeds smoothly. However, he might be not and regency happens. The worst situation is when a UsurperHeir ascends to the throne – he might become WeakUsurper, Usurper, andStrongUsurper.
    * all generals take the stand against the usurper – depending on his strength and their Chivalry, this may result in a range of reactions (different UsurperInCourt levels).
    * in any succession there’s always a risk for civil war to break out (cities rebelling against the faction). The less legitimate the ruler, the higher the chances. With a WeakUsurper the civil war is very likely.
    * the Usurper tries to start his own dynasty (New_Royal_House). It may happen without a civil war, but usually, it takes place after the end of the war, which may last up to 12,5 years. It may also end with the death of the Usurper (for whatever reason) and a legitimate dynasty may come back.
    * after the usurpation ends (the ruler is perceived to be legitimate) the nobles get back to normalcy (losing UsurperInCourt traits). If they defied the usurper and the legitimate dynasty is back on the throne, they may be hailed “HeroOfTheLand”. Otherwise, they may be Redeemed or FallFromGrace (all of which are the levels ofHeroAndRogue trait).

    V. Modding thoughts and remarks:

    * a lot of work is required to achieve that the mod behaves as described above. For now, it doesn’t work properly.
    * a conceptual problem with this system is that it's a bit at odds with the real-life (as I imagine it to be). Namely, the "IWantCrown"-type ideas comes to heads of the among potential usurpers often after the death of a ruler, or in his old age. These are the moments when people start to wonder who would succeed him - and get the thoughts it might be them. These ideas are rather related to the new ruler: I'm better, I want to be in his stead. However, in our system as described above, the ideas develop in relation to the current, old ruler: I want to replace him (look that even the description says: "Unhappy with Leadership"). So we need to think about this issue how to square the system with historical reality - take into account a sudden surge in the "usurper" trait just after the death of the old leader, and also increase of this trait related to old age of the old ruler and low authority / command / dread of the current heir (these features herald a weak future ruler).
    * I feel that the trait "Plotting" should be quite rare as far as the number of generals is concerned. Only somehow eligible generals (with royal ties, or any close relations with the crown) would think of usurping and becoming a new ruler. I feel this should be rarer than it's now, and be related to broader range of features of character (ie FarLoyalty should lower it a bit)
    * on the other hand, there should always be general "plotting" around any ruler, even the strongest and the most legitimate.
    * the use of the name "Usurper" for the lvl 1 of that trait is misleading (Plotting).
    * some other traits that should influence the evolution of the Usurper-development
    --- old age (Senile/Beyond battle) and health (SeverlyWounded) should stop this evolution
    --- some charater aspects should slow it (Coward etc.)

    VI. Ideas for future:
    * will appear during modding.


    (C) Civil Strife mechanism

    I. What does is reflect from real life:
    * this system concerns the FL: he sparks a reaction of the general.
    * the nobles in a faction get angry because of the FL character features, FL actions, or state of the kingdom (debt, excommunication).
    * they lose faith in their ruler, they defy the orders (don’t move), they instigate rebellion in the cities, they lower the crown’s income. However, they’re still Loyal to the faction: they don’t defect. They love the kingdom, but not the king.
    * some of them may also side with the ruler, especially if the ruler has authority, instigate Dread, or shares values (Chivalry, Piety) with them.
    * they engage
    in politics when they’re not busy (they’re in the settlements). Not all of them gets involved.
    * the risk of Civil Strife rises with the size of the faction: small faction are relatively immune, while big factions are at big risk.
    * the risk is significantly lowered if the king gets Crowned.

    II. What are the relevant traits:
    Offensive_to_Nobles, Obedient, Disobedient.

    III. How it happens:

    * due to his actions, character of the state of the faction, the FL gets “
    OtN” trait (this risk is present all the time)
    * each general staying in a settlement is checked every turn if he becomes Disobedient or stays Obedient
    * it the FL loses the “OtN” trait, then the generals may lose Disobedient and Obedient traits
    * a Crown is an ancillary that each faction can get based on the historical expansion (AI must be excluded from this mechanism)

    IV. Consequences:

    - the nobles are reluctant to obey the orders of the ruler – this manifests itself in a high chance of defection, very low movement, creation unrest in the settlements etc.

    V. Modding remarks:

    * in modding Disobedient we must balance the chances of defection and create unrest. It may happen that for the player it would become always a better choice to get such a general out of the city and him to defect than to lose the city due to rebellion. In this respect I’m rather in favor of not lowering “Loyalty” too much: a noble can be loyal to the faction but defy the ruler’s orders.

    VI. Ideas for future:

    * relate the triggers to the personality traits (as in the GTCS), somehow similar to the Usurper way (may common triggers?).
    * make a trigger with conditions coming from Provincial Titles and Ministerial Titles.



    Pro memoria, my GTCS modding principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    • Historicity, reality, logic: reflect the middle-ages’ reality, keep it according to our best knowledge of history, be logical.
    • Interaction between traits: a trait should appear in the triggers for the other traits so that at the end a personality of a general is consistent and convincing.
    • Meaningfulness of the traits: each trait should bear an important information for the player, not to be shrugged off (for instance, if a general is Beyond Battle, it should not be only about -4HP in fight, but if he does appear at the battlefield, he should be very likely to get wounded)
    • Cycle-of-life: young and middle-aged generals get the traits fast, but in the old age and after the harsh experience they're losing the traits. The oldest generals should not be the best for managing and fighting, it's rather generals of age 30-50 and governors 40-60, who are the best.
    • Simplicity: don't make player's life unnecessarily difficult, if it's not needed for the other reasons. What follows:
    • Consistency: make patterns so that the player can easily get his bearings (eg. the low-level requirements for Piety or Loyalty should be consistently 3, not sometimes 2, and sometimes 4; or: if there’s in a few triggers a special condition for “The Administratively minded generals with Piety”, this “Piety” level should be the same in all triggers)
    • Keep the SS logic: the above-mentioned patterns should be in line with the logic of the other traits (eg. the benefits for consecutive levels of the money-traits should be 10-20-30).
    • Minimality: change the least is needed so that the SS-core stays. I'll not introduce new traits, just modify the existing ones.
    • Efficiency: the fewer code-lines the better, try shooting two birds with one stone: if two things may be coded in one trigger, just do it.
    • Documentation: I'll describe in detail what I'm doing and why.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 19, 2018 at 05:15 AM.
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project,
    and the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine.
    ........................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Pros and cons of having merchants in an M2TW mod. Arguments against the forts in M2TW.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. No good mod yet, alas!
    Dominant strategy in Rome 2 TW and Attila TW: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
    .................................................................................................................................................................................
    Developer of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, script fixing, guides, historical improvements

  18. #38
    VineFynn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    /some conceptual work in progress, for reference to make sorting things out easier/

    The Loyalty engine

    This part of modding is related to the generals’ Loyalty. It defines the risk of a general defecting from the faction but has also an impact on other triggers. In particular, it plays a big role in the change of the ruler on the throne, and in the reaction of generals to the ruler’s deeds or character features. It swings very often during the game for each general, due to the overall game situation, the faction situation, the traits of the FL and, especially, to the activities and situation of the general.

    The most important thing concerning modding Loyalty is to ensure balance. All the traits and triggers cannot let the player have “easy shots” at Loyalty, but they also should not make the game unplayable (situation when whatever the player does, he ends up with 0 Loyalty). So interactions and possible spill-overs are to be taken into account whenever a benefit/negative of Loyalty is concerned.

    For clarity: Authority is very closely related to the mechanisms involving Loyalty. Authority is important mainly for the king, but sometimes it plays in other situations: becoming an Heir or in the Usurper mechanism. In my
    modding I’d also like to make it somehow important for the other nobles – for instance in getting some traits in the GTCS, see here. However, in this part of modding I abstain from this issue: I take the FL’s authority for granted.

    Nomenclature:
    * let us reserve the use of word “Defection” only to a situation when a low-Loyalty general turns rebel: for the M2TW engine is considered to be a “slave” faction general. So “defection” is an engine mechanism, not something we mod in the traits.
    * “Rebellion” is a situation when citizens of a settlement rebels from the faction. However, sometimes the word is used in relation to “defection” (a rebel general), and also in the traits related to low(
    ering) Loyalty or mechanisms of the nobles’ unrest and traits like as IWantCrown, UsurperInCourt, Disobedient. However, for clarity, it’s better to be avoided.


    Elements of the Loyalty engine

    A) Acquiring/losing Loyalty
    A1) The main Loyalty traits: four traits aiming at defining loyalty of a general. These are: “starter” (3 initial Loyalty points given to any general at the beginning of the game or at Coming of Age), Loyal/Disloyal – stable feature of character of a general, Near/FarLoyalty – related to his distance from capital, Content/Discontent General – how the general feels at the moment.
    A2) Traits changing “Loyalty” attribute as a side effect – Some may provide for big Loyalty changes (like some provincial titles and Stripped mechanism), but they’re still parts of the other matters. The examples of other traits are: Poulains, various Bloods, AbsentMindedGeneral, Education, Humane, Envious of Heir, Bad Commander, Feck, Stoic, Auster, DeceiverVirtue, Upright, Loves/Hates Father.
    A3) Special mechanisms related to the interaction of the generals and the FL (Usurper, Civil Strife)

    B) Effects of Loyalty
    B1) Basic effect is that of the M2TW game engine: a low Loyalty general turns rebel. There’re some moddable parameters to is. It’s important to remember that 1) a general cannot rebel while in a settlement, 2) we may differentiate the propensity-to-rebel of the general having the same Loyalty between the player and the AI.
    B2) Influence of Loyalty on the appearance of the other traits (ie. Loyalty included as a condition in the triggers).
    B3) role of Loyalty in the special mechanisms related to the interaction of the generals and the FL (Usurper, Civil Strife), culminating in the events during the changes on the throne.

    As mentioned, everything has to be balanced so that each of the mechanisms functions well separately, but also all together. It must be ensured that there’re no loopholes, like in the WotN. However, balancing is to be assessed at the end of modding – we’ll fiddle with probabilities and values. We need to concentrate on some blocks first, so, let’s skip for now A2 and B2 – they’ll be done by way of modding other traits, like in my GTCS.

    So the mechanisms to be dealt with here are:
    (A) Main Loyalty traits.
    (B) Usurper mechanism.
    (C) Civil Strife mechanism.


    (A) Main Loyalty traits

    I. Traits defining Loyalty
    * LoyaltyStarter – gives every player’s general 3 Loyalty at CoA (Coming of Age) (5 for the AI)
    * Loyal/Disloyal – this is a feature of the character of a general he gets at CoA. The starting value is mostly accidental but depends also on the parents' traits, perhaps of the size of the faction at CoA, and may vary between factions. It’s stable throughout life, although some very import events in his life may change it.
    * ContentGeneral/DiscontentGeneral - It tells the current state-of-mind of a general: how does he feel now. He may feel “Appreciated” or “Honoured”, but may feel “Dishonoured”. It swings often according to the events in his life and in general politics.
    * NearLoyalty/FarLoyalty – this conveys the concept that a general having close contacts with the ruler (meeting him frequently, living in the neighborhood) is more loyal that somebody living on the outskirts of the realm. (for the modding purposes there’s also FLNearCapital trait).


    (B) Usurper mechanism

    I. What does is reflect
    from the real life:
    * some nobles in a faction may get unhappy with the current ruler or may feel very confident about themselves and may fantasize about replacing him.
    * this feeling may develop throughout a noble’s life both because of the deeds of the rulers (if he does things the noble dislikes) or due to the general himself (what he does in life, features of character,
    father and mother etc.).
    * any change on the throne is a special moment for the decision to act: the whole process is a complicated one and various situations may emerge, eg.: 1. A smooth succession of an HeirApparent, 2. A succession of the HeirApparent but with some nobles defying the new ruler, 3. A succession of a Regent with a backlash from some nobles, 4. A succession of a Usurper – with backlash.
    * any change on the throne is a risky business: some provinces may want to use the opportunity and go their way: a civil war may break out. The risk is the greater the less legitimate the ruler is.
    * in particular, the new ruler may have some features that prompt actions of the nobles: low authority, not legitimate descent (being not from the royal house, being regent, usurper or bastard), also young age of a new ruler may be the reason, or maybe an expected change in politics (difference in Piety, difference in Chivalry-Dread).
    * there’re also many features of the generals themselves that may be conducive to the emergence of the will to defy a ruler: low Loyalty, own high Authority, high values of Dread/Command, low values of Piety.
    * however, some generals may take hasty decision to disobey, but then they may change and even redeem themselves.

    II. What are the relevant traits:
    IWantTheCrown,
    FactionLeader, FactionRegent, BastardSon, BastardHeir, Usurper, UsurperInCourt, HeroAndRogue, New_Royal_House.

    III. How it happens:

    * this system concerns generals: a general has to change his mind, then he gets the trait IWantTheCrown
    * if he is not loyal (or loses loyalty) he might get the Usurper trait. This is lower his features, but more importantly: creates risk for succession. In particular, there’s a question if the FactionHeir is legitimate, or not (UsurperHeir).
    * when an FL dies, a new one ascends to the throne. He might be a legitimate and the succession proceeds smoothly. However, he might be not and regency happens. The worst situation is when a UsurperHeir ascends to the throne – he might become WeakUsurper, Usurper, andStrongUsurper.
    * all generals take the stand against the usurper – depending on his strength and their Chivalry, this may result in a range of reactions (different UsurperInCourt levels).
    * in any succession there’s always a risk for civil war to break out (cities rebelling against the faction). The less legitimate the ruler, the higher the chances. With a WeakUsurper the civil war is very likely.
    * the Usurper tries to start his own dynasty (New_Royal_House). It may happen without a civil war, but usually, it takes place after the end of the war, which may last up to 12,5 years. It may also end with the death of the Usurper (for whatever reason) and a legitimate dynasty may come back.
    * after the usurpation ends (the ruler is perceived to be legitimate) the nobles get back to normalcy (losing UsurperInCourt traits). If they defied the usurper and the legitimate dynasty is back on the throne, they may be hailed “HeroOfTheLand”. Otherwise, they may be Redeemed or FallFromGrace (all of which are the levels ofHeroAndRogue trait).

    V. Modding remarks:

    * much changes to be done to achieve such a mechanism. For now, it doesn’t work properly.

    VI. Ideas for future:

    * will appear during modding.


    (C) Civil Strife mechanism

    I. What does is reflect from real life:
    * nobles in a faction get angry because of the FL character features, FL actions, or state of the kingdom (debt, excommunication).
    * they lose faith in their ruler, they defy the orders (don’t move), they instigate rebellion in the cities, they lower the crown’s income. However, they’re still Loyal to the faction: they don’t defect. They love the kingdom, but not the king.
    * some of them may also side with the ruler, especially if the ruler has authority, instigate Dread, or shares values (Chivalry, Piety) with them.
    *
    they engage in the politics when they’re not busy (they’re in the settlements).
    * the risk of Civil Strife rises with the size of the faction: small faction are relatively immune, while big factions are at big risk
    * the risk is significantly lowered if the king gets Crowned.

    II. What are the relevant traits:
    Offensive_to_Nobles, Obedient, Disobedient.

    III. How it happens:

    * due to his actions, character of the state of the faction, the FL gets “
    OtN” trait (this risk is present all the time)
    * each general staying in a settlement is checked every turn if he becomes Disobedient or stays Obedient
    * it the FL loses the “OtN” trait, then the generals may lose Disobedient and Obedient traits
    * a Crown is an ancillary that each faction can get based on the historical expansion (AI must be excluded from this mechanism)

    IV. Consequences:

    - the nobles are reluctant to obey the orders of the ruler – this manifests itself in a high chance of defection, very low movement, creation unrest in the settlements etc.

    V. Modding remarks:

    * in modding Disobedient we must balance the chances of defection and create unrest. It may happen that for the player it would become always a better choice to get such a general out of the city and him to defect than to lose the city due to rebellion. In this respect I’m rather in favor of not lowering “Loyalty” too much: a noble can be loyal to the faction but defy the ruler’s orders.

    VI. Ideas for future:

    * relate the triggers to the personality traits (as in the GTCS).
    * make a trigger with conditions coming from Provincial Titles and Ministerial Titles.



    Pro memoria, my GTCS modding principles.

    Really great writeup.
    Real life is balanced.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    This all looks great to me, albeit complex!

    Are the files and changes made in this thread save game compatible, or would it require a new game for them to be implemented?

  20. #40
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Recommended changes to usurpation

    Quote Originally Posted by Swarbs View Post
    This all looks great to me, albeit complex!

    Are the files and changes made in this thread save game compatible, or would it require a new game for them to be implemented?
    Complex issue:
    1. it's equally complex at the moment, you just don't know it exists.
    2. at the moment some features are broken, what we've with VineFynn have analyzed: not all of the clean-up trigger for the relevant traits work, some conditions in the triggers double, the changes are sometimes accidental. You can play a game and have fun, but you don't know why particular things happen, and the way out of the problems is for many generals just to die. Besides, there're some exploit opportunities (as Alavaria has shown - you can have no problem with FarLoyalty while keeping ContentGeneral due to the battles - all of which enables a shrewd player just to eschew the Loyalty issues.
    3. what in modding looks complex, may be very easy to be played for the player (if modded in the right way).

    Save-compatibility:
    - first, let's pray VineFynn takes on these issues :-)
    - second, it's going to be mostly compatible, with a caveat described here.

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