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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

  1. #1

    Default Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders



    The County of Flanders

    The county of Flanders rose to great power at the start of the 12th century with the reign of Thierry of Alsace after the last dynasty of Flemish counts ended. The cities, united under the idea of a fair count, grew under the idea of an orderly and fiscal organization, giving the communes more freedom to develop independently, and leading to the establishment of multiple municipal governments within the cities.
    But, at the end of the prosperous 12th century, ruin fell upon the Flemish, with the death of their leaders Baldwin VIII in 1195 and Baldwin IX in 1205. Now, in 1212, as French envy has reached a new for the small Flemish state, will you have the ability to unite the cities and fight them back?

    The County is a very strongly infantry-focused faction, so great emphasis was taken to focus on the Flemish-inspired infantry revolution. As a result, your first tier will be comprised of many militia spear, sword, and crossbow units, while knights and guild units will make up the heavy hitters of your army.
    In the second tier, your militia units will gain training and morale, meaning you can rely on them for more offensive capabilities, while the strong pike, halberd, and polearm units will still be valid options for destroying your enemies.
    In tier 3, as a result in the decline of the County due to the black plague and the constant revolts under the new Burgundian count, you will be limited in your sword, spear, pike, and polearms selection to very few but elite units, with the change to two interesting guild units.
    But beware, as in all tiers, you have access to only three to four units of cav, so use them wisely!

    Strengths: Very infantry-focused faction. Access to pikes, goedendags, and falchion-wielding shock infantry. Limited access to pike, goedendag, crossbow, spear, and falchion-wielding uniform guild units.

    Weaknesses: Very limited access to spear, crossbow and cav units. Lots of militia units that have some training and somewhat high morale. Possibly surrounded by enemies of the French and German variety. Struggle with the French early on in the game.

    Thanks to my fellow modders like Banskie, Ltd, and Slytacular for creating some very nice models that I was able to use in a lot of my units, and Johnny Cache for giving me the idea to add various units like the guild units and the falchion troops.
    Tier 1

    --General Units--

    Burgomeisters of the Communes

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Burgomeister is the title given for mayors that oversee Dutch, Flemish and German towns. These Burgomeisters were highly respected individuals in their Communes, even going through a second election after their first to get onto the council of Schepen, or aldermen, in order to become the Mayor or Burgomeister of the Commune. Several Communes could exist in one city at a time, like Brugges and Antwerpen both having two and possibly three Communes in the city.



    Count of Flanders

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Gui De Dampierre, Count of Flanders

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    As the first Count after the death of the previous two Baldwins, Gui De Dampierre was partly self-appointed to the leadership in 1278 because of his strong resentment towards the French oppressors. He also incited the first part of the Flemish Revolts, and was imprisoned for it in 1294.


    --Sword and Falchion Units--

    Flemish Foot-Levies

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    (Brugges is probably my most favorite city COA)



    Flemish Falchion Militia

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    Butcher's Guild Falchioneers

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    Dismounted Flemish Men-at-Arms

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    An alternative name to these guys would be Poorters, those who were rich enough to afford a house inside the walls of the city. Poorters also had the chance to participate and train in the several guilds and brotherhoods throughout Flanders.




    Flemish Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    --Polearm Units--

    Flemish Goedendags

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    Textile Cutter's Guild Goedendags

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    Dismounted Flemish Knights

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    --Pike Units--

    Flemish Hook Pikemen

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    A unit idea taken from the famous manuscript depicting the Battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302.





    Baker's Guild Pikemen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    --Spear Units--

    Flemish Spear Militia

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    --Bow and Crossbow Units--

    Flemish Militia Crossbowmen

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    Flemish Levy Bowmen

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    --Shock Cavalry Units--

    Mounted Flemish Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Flemish Men-at-Arms

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    Flemish Knights

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    Last edited by Azrien Fox; April 10, 2018 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Tier 2

    --General Units--

    Burgomeisters of the Communes

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Count of Flanders

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    --Sword Units--

    Flemish Foot-Levies
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Flemish Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Fishmonger's Guild Swordmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Dismounted Flemish Men-at-Arms

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    --Polearm Units--

    Flemish Goedendags

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Brotherhood of St. George's Goedendags / Halberds

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    (Goedendags in the background and foreground)

    Dismounted Flemish Knights

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    --Pike Units--

    Flemish Pikemen

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    Brewer's Guild Pikemen

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    --Spear Units--

    Flemish Spear Militia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Brotherhood of St. Sebastian's Spearmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    --Bow and Crossbow Units--

    Flemish Militia Crossbowmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Flemish Levy Bowmen

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    Brotherhood of St. George's Crossbowmen

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    --Shock Cavalry Units--

    Mounted Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Flemish Men-at-Arms

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Flemish Knights

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    Something I would like to point out in the Flemish units is the slow doing-away of the Flemish lion throughout the MAA and dismounted MAA units, as well as other units. I found a lot of different sources that curiously brought up the idea that the cities, after a certain amount of time, started to detest the Count for reasons of ignoring their pleas to become more independent cities or even independent city-states. Detestment even to the point of banishing the Count and his representatives in some cities throughout the 14th Century. And in the 15th Century, since there was constant revolts because of the leadership switch to a far away power, the Flemish Lion is completely gone in the 15th Century MAA units and decreased use in the militia units. Just wanted to clarify that.
    Last edited by Azrien Fox; April 10, 2018 at 03:33 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Tier 3

    --General Units--

    Burgomeisters of the Communes

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    (Bruges still coolest CoA imo)



    Count of Flanders

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    --Sword Units--

    Flemish Foot-Militia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Swordsmen of Saint Michael

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The first mention of the guild of Saint Michael was in Brugges in 1433 known as the one of the first, or maybe the first, Fencing Guild in Flanders, doubling as school to teach art of dueling with two-handed swords. But while they presences in both Brugges and Tournai, they were not officially recoganized as a armed guild until 1521, because fencing was considered something closer to dancing than fighting. Regardless, after their recognition, they formally became known as the Hallebardieren, which still actually operates to this day.
    The shield and armor CoA comes off from depictions of both St. Michael (notice the shield's interesting pattern), and the CoA of one Jan Van Kleef, Bastard of Ravenstein, whose tomb was set in 1504, you can see the CoA here as the original artist has disabled use of photos.




    Dismounted Flemish Men-at-Arms

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Flemish Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    --Polearm Units--

    Flemish Halberdiers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Dismounted Flemish Knights

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Dismounted Count's Retinue
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    --Pike Units--

    Flemish Pikemen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    --Spear Units--

    Flemish Pavisiers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    --Bow Crossbow and Gunner Units--

    Flemish Pavise Crossbowmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Flemish Levy Bowmen

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    English Longbowmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Flemish Gunners

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Gunners of Saint Barbara

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Gunners of Saint Barbara is a guild that was established in 1502 in Brugges. Saint Barbara is oddly enough the patroness of all artillerymen, army engineers, and anyone who uses gunpowder. Her presence on the field can cause artillerymen become reckless and careless. A report of the guild in 1845 detailed how 100 members of the guild gathered to celebrate, guns and all, in a church in Rome "firing all round the doors." Thus, the gunners unit is a happy-go-lucky set of troops with weapons of destruction (a.k.a. they scare enemies).




    --Shock Cavalry Units--

    Mounted Sergeants

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Flemish Men-at-Arms

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Flemish Knights

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Count's Retinue
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Last edited by Azrien Fox; April 10, 2018 at 04:46 PM.

  4. #4
    FrozenmenSS's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Fantastic job + rep

  5. #5

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Indeed, very nice! So much quantity and yet so beautiful! Amazing!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Absolutely great roster! Well researched, colorful and extremely detailed, honestly everything I could have hoped to see in a Flemish roster and more. Those guild and Saints' units are an especially cool and unique touch.

    The only thing I'm not a fan of are the shields on the backs of the tier 3 dismounted Flemish knights and Flemish gunners. They look kinda out of place on 15th century units and especially for the almost fully plate armored knights they seem mostly redundant.

    Also why are English retinue longbowmen present in the roster? I assume that they represent the English mercs who served under Charles the Bold, but shouldnt they have Burgundian instead of English officers in that case?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Well for the shield thing, I thought it would be a nice little detail on the knights for their loyalty to the count because as the maa start detesting the Count, his knights either start, by choice or are forced, to represent their loyalty to the count. So its like the opposite for maa in that regard.

    As for the gunners, it works into the fact that the presence of saint Barbara causes recklessness throughout the men, but the pavise also give them high missile block, so they are definitely more useful than the regular gunner unit.

    Also on the bowmen, im using the unit thats already present in the English roster. I'll probably either have to make my own and then add Burgundian officers in or just copy the vmd and place with my own units and add it in that way.
    Last edited by Azrien Fox; March 19, 2018 at 01:31 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrien Fox View Post
    Well for the shield thing, I thought it would be a nice little detail on the knights for their loyalty to the count because as the maa start detesting the Count, his knights either start, by choice or are forced, to represent their loyalty to the count. So its like the opposite for maa in that regard.

    As for the gunners, it works into the fact that the presence of saint Barbara causes recklessness throughout the men, but the pavise also give them high missile block, so they are definitely more useful than the regular gunner unit.

    Also on the bowmen, im using the unit thats already present in the English roster. I'll probably either have to make my own and then add Burgundian officers in or just copy the vmd and place with my own units and add it in that way.
    On the handgunners, what bothers me is not the presence of shields itself, I actually really like the St. Barbara paveses, but the type of shields used by the normal Flemish gunners. Those triangular heater shields to me look more like something from the high rather than the late Middle Ages. Pavises make sense, because they give the gunner a lot of protection when reloading, as well as a surface to rest their weapon on when firing, but smaller heater shields dont really offer the same benefits and afaik in this period missile troops would be more likely to use bucklers when in melee rather than heater shields.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Are you guys using a new surcoat model in some of those tier 1 units? It looks really nice and I don't think I've noticed it before.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Alright so I changed a couple of things. After discussing with the team about some of the units, I have decided to take out all the use of the falchion-exclusive units from tier 2 and replace them with a sword-weilding Sergeants unit. I am planning on making the Sergeants a bit more armored and have more of a uniform theme to them, using mostly colors of the Count and showing off the Flemish Lion as well as some basic patterns in the shields, gambesons, brigandines, etc. In tier 3, I am going to add another Sergeants unit, but make it kind of similar to the regular soldiers depicted in many of Jean Froissart's Chronicles from Bruges that were published and illustrated in the mid to late 1400's. So the falchion militia in tier 2 is gone, with the guild unit getting more types of one handed weapons like axes, swords, etc., thrown in.

    Additionally, it went completely over my head that I had named the Gens d'Armes the same as my Men-at-arms, but they are actually supposed to be companies that would operate similar to the French and Burgundian Compagnies d'ordonannces, so as a suggestion of Zsi recommended to make them well-armored and also very expensive to hire, as I am sure there were in their time. But since I really kind of want to keep them, I decided to rename them to Flemish Compagnie to reflect their difference between them and the other lower nobility units on the battlefield.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Yeah everything but the Knights unit and the Burgomasters tier 1 unit use slytacular's new surcoat.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Alright, sergeants and my dismounted men-at-arms tier 3 have been added. Also in order to make the sergeants and the militia different in look, I toned down the armor on the tier 2 and 3 militia units and renamed the Foot-Infantry to Foot-Militia.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    I love that i see flag bearers without shields on their other hand. For some reason seeing a flag bearer with a shield annoys me.Anyways this rooster is beautiful i love the guild units.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrien Fox View Post
    Well for the shield thing, I thought it would be a nice little detail on the knights for their loyalty to the count because as the maa start detesting the Count, his knights either start, by choice or are forced, to represent their loyalty to the count. So its like the opposite for maa in that regard.
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to give the knights surcoats/tabards with the counts' CoA, instead of using heater shields which would have been rather outdated by this point? Also wouldn't at least some of the knights still continue using their own CoAs even if they were loyal vassals of the Count?

    Finally, shouldn't at least some of the tier 3 Compagnie, Knights, Sergeants and Counts' bodyguards also have Burgundian insignia. Overall, I like that you kept the tier 3 roster mostly free of Burgundian influence, making it its own unique thing rather than just a copy of Burgundy, but I still think that it would be appropriate to at least partially acknowledge Burgundian rule when it comes to the Counts' own troops and the Count himself.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight2708 View Post
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to give the knights surcoats/tabards with the counts' CoA, instead of using heater shields which would have been rather outdated by this point? Also wouldn't at least some of the knights still continue using their own CoAs even if they were loyal vassals of the Count?
    Well, the tabards are already in there for the most part, along with brigandines. I probably should take off the heaters on the back, considering how the other tiers dont do that with the shields. And while Im sure it would be good to have some CoA of vassals loyal to the count, I have been getting a lot of suggestions to give my militia units more of a color scheme, rather than having them look like they're just multiple city militias formed into an army like I intended. So for the sake of showing off the more uniform troops that rally under the count himself, I kinda want to keep to a black and yellow look within my sergeants and knights units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight2708 View Post
    Finally, shouldn't at least some of the tier 3 Compagnie, Knights, Sergeants and Counts' bodyguards also have Burgundian insignia. Overall, I like that you kept the tier 3 roster mostly free of Burgundian influence, making it its own unique thing rather than just a copy of Burgundy, but I still think that it would be appropriate to at least partially acknowledge Burgundian rule when it comes to the Counts' own troops and the Count himself.
    I have already had this conversation at length with Slytacular, and here is what I got from it: for the campaign, I cannot show off Burgundy CoA's in the units because it wouldn't make sense for a tier 3 units to show off a duchy that player might have conquered by the time they've unlocked tier 3 troops. But I would like to keep them in for the custom battles (cb) side of it, because cb does follow historical events, like the Burgundian takeover of Flanders with the marriage of Margaret III to John the Fearless. The only problem is I would have to make two sets of units, then create their lines in DB in order to put them into the game, just so I have both Burgundian-influenced Flemish troops and non Burgundian-influenced troops. So that is where I am at on that.
    Last edited by Azrien Fox; April 05, 2018 at 03:54 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrien Fox View Post
    Well, the tabards are already in there for the most part, along with brigandines. I probably should take off the heaters on the back, considering how the other tiers dont do that with the shields..
    Okay cool.
    I have been getting a lot of suggestions to give my militia units more of a color scheme, rather than having them look like they're just multiple city militias formed into an army like I intended.
    I really hope youvdon.'t. The current units look great and really unique and probably also more historically accurate. A more uniform color scheme just for its own sake makes little sense imho and would not really work with this faction and only detract from the roster.

    I have already had this conversation at length with Slytacular, and here is what I got from it: for the campaign, I cannot show off Burgundy CoA's in the units because it wouldn't make sense for a tier 3 units to show off a duchy that player might have conquered by the time they've unlocked tier 3 troops. But I would like to keep them in for the custom battles (cb) side of it, because cb does follow historical events, like the Burgundian takeover of Flanders with the marriage of Margaret III to John the Fearless. The only problem is I would have to make two sets of units, then create their lines in DB in order to put them into the game, just so I have both Burgundian-influenced Flemish troops and non Burgundian-influenced troops. So that is where I am at on that.
    Okay, got it.

  17. #17
    M.A.E's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Fishmonger's Guild Swordsmen .....I like This Unit, Well done Excellent Work
    +Rep
    I Came,I Saw I Partially Differentiate

  18. #18
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Nice roster. The guild representations are excellent.

    If I were to improve things, it would be to represent the other types of goedendag that we know off.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    Nice roster. The guild representations are excellent.

    If I were to improve things, it would be to represent the other types of goedendag that we know off.

    ~Wille
    Do you have pictures of the other kinds of goedendags used? Mainly in manuscripts, I saw the same kind of goedendag used in my forces. But if pictures of them exist, I can see if our modelling guys have space to make them.
    Last edited by Azrien Fox; April 07, 2018 at 03:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    The goedendag used mainly by the flemish troops. I made a small album with the different variations I've come across. From the traditional early 2 handed mace/club like version (late 13th century), to a shorter 1 handed version (early 14th century) and a longer pole goedendag with a disc of later period (mid to late 14th century): http://imgur.com/a/VMEBq
    ​~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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