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Thread: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

  1. #21
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    To my knowledge I have never worshipped an idol in my life. Besides I don't recognise my faith to be a religion at all. True Christians live by faith alone so idols just don't come into it at all. So, are governments to be allowed to say what my heart and mind think? Am I to be condemned for my personal belief? Am I to be shut up because I express my belief for if that is the case then where oh where is freedom of speech no matter from what authority it is denied? How does one debate if for example one is not allowed to say or tell of everyday happenings to them by others who don't agree? Where is the harm as long as I don't shoot, bomb or maim anyone?

  2. #22

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    I did not proposed a ban. I proposed ending their lying for cash which is fraud.
    How do you separate the liars from those who tell the truth?
    Easy. You call them out on their lies in an authoritative court.
    The problem is that the fraud squad is showing these fraudsters respect and or ignoring them.
    Regards
    DL
    This is not that different from Inquisition back then. Except back then corporal punishment and torture was seen as 200% normal, and alternative would be to get a mob stoning without trial.

    So not sure what to reply.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 19, 2018 at 07:11 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  3. #23
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    If someone is dumb enough to give money to a 'fake' religion (implying all others are real) then let them, it isn't for government to decide on what is and isnt a legitimate idea, as thats all religion is, an idea
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    To my knowledge I have never worshipped an idol in my life. Besides I don't recognise my faith to be a religion at all. True Christians live by faith alone so idols just don't come into it at all. So, are governments to be allowed to say what my heart and mind think? Am I to be condemned for my personal belief? Am I to be shut up because I express my belief for if that is the case then where oh where is freedom of speech no matter from what authority it is denied? How does one debate if for example one is not allowed to say or tell of everyday happenings to them by others who don't agree? Where is the harm as long as I don't shoot, bomb or maim anyone?
    I to cherish my freedom of speech and would never give it up.
    The same applies to my free thinking. You have named or found your God. I am sure y7ou can find a hiding spot in semantics though.
    Free speech has limits determined by harm. Try yelling fire in a theatre and see how fast your freedom of speech gets you jailed.

    Freedom of speech does not include lying for a marks cash the way religious clergy do.That is fraud and that harm negates your cherished freedom of speech and thought.

    Strange how Christians scream for the same freedom of religion that denied the old world with your Inquisitions.
    When did Christians finally adopt that new policy?

    Please ask your priest or preacher to stop lying to people for their cash.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    This is not that different from Inquisition back then. Except back then corporal punishment and torture was seen as 200% normal, and alternative would be to get a mob stoning without trial.

    So not sure what to reply.
    Inquisitions seek to kill or convert by violence instead of reasoned moral arguments.

    Christianity used the sword because they could not form persuasive moral arguments, just as they cannot today to justify their vile ideology that idol worships a genocidal son murdering God. This has been common knowledge forever.

    A judge does not kill fraudsters and if his persuasive moral and legal arguments do not convert the frausters, he has a jail to use and does not have to kill.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If someone is dumb enough to give money to a 'fake' religion (implying all others are real) then let them, it isn't for government to decide on what is and isnt a legitimate idea, as thats all religion is, an idea
    I do not see a lot of compassion here nor anything close to you living by the Golden Rule.

    What if that dummy is your mom or dad mortgaging the farm for their con man?
    I think if you are unfortunate enough to be the victim offraud, to the point of losing a significant amount, then telling the victim,--- that's your cross to bear, --- islike telling your neighbors that even if they call the authorities, nothingwould be done to look into their theft.
    I will not treat my neighbor that way and neither should you, IMO.

    I hope your neighbors do not tell you what you would tell them my friend. Thatwould make them poor neighbors and citizens.


    Regards
    DL
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 20, 2018 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Name-calling, personal references.

  5. #25
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Well what exactly would you be getting in return for giving these people your money?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Strange how Christians scream for the same freedom of religion that denied the old world with your Inquisitions.
    When did Christians finally adopt that new policy?

    Please ask your priest or preacher to stop lying to people for their cash.

    Regards
    DL
    I'm saying philosophy of Inquisition is pretty much the same as your OP. The only difference is the punishment method, you seek for government to "regulate" false religions in to irrelevancy, which is the same Inquisition did, but with medieval means, rather than XXI century means.

    Extreme opposites atract each other! Kinda odd the shared ideal between you and the your most disliked institution.

    Inquisition flourished because before Inquisition people were often put to death without trial. Inquisition introduced the notion that someone condemned could actually have a chance to defend himself in a court. Before you would simply be mob lynched and that's it, "Justice done".

    Now it was an improvement as compared to utterly medieval "justice", so for modern standards it seems frail, but for the time it was a progressive improvement.
    Only later on (XVIII and XIX centuries) do people start complaining a lot about the institution, because it was utterly outdated compared to other forms of justice that could lawfully be implemented. But we forget those more modern alternatives did not exist in medieval times.

    Compared to X, XI or XIII century tendency of mob lynching and death by stoning without trial, Inquisition was seen as an improvement in life standards.

    Plus depending on the country, your odd religious practice could be tolerated or prosecuted. So what belief could get you persecuted in one country you get asylum in another.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 20, 2018 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Continuity.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #27
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    What are these idols you keep implying that I worship? Unless I am wrong an idol is something one can see, grasp and cling on to but as my God is a Spirit can you see Him? Can you grasp Him, cling on to Him? More so, can you produce Him?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Well what exactly would you be getting in return for giving these people your money?
    That depends on which preacher is lying to you.

    Some, wealth, others health, others salvation. Pick your lie.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I'm saying philosophy of Inquisition is pretty much the same as your OP. The only difference is the punishment method, you seek for government to "regulate" false religions in to irrelevancy, which is the same Inquisition did, but with medieval means, rather than XXI century means.
    So persuasion by moral argument, to you, is the same as what the Inquisition did with the sword, even though one way leaves people alive while the other kills them. Ok.

    We are too far apart in our thinking patterns for a meaningful dialog but thanks for the reply.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    What are these idols you keep implying that I worship? Unless I am wrong an idol is something one can see, grasp and cling on to but as my God is a Spirit can you see Him? Can you grasp Him, cling on to Him? More so, can you produce Him?
    Instead of getting into semantics, tell us what or who you adore and worship or have as your highest ideal.

    Regards
    DL

  9. #29
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    That depends on which preacher is lying to you.

    Some, wealth, others health, others salvation. Pick your lie.

    Regards
    DL
    Thanks. My position is this: what makes the 'fake' preachers any different from the more mainstream religions? (Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity...) Do you understand my point. Lots of 'legit' religions also take donations from people as well.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    So persuasion by moral argument, to you, is the same as what the Inquisition did with the sword, even though one way leaves people alive while the other kills them. Ok.

    We are too far apart in our thinking patterns for a meaningful dialog but thanks for the reply.

    Regards
    DL
    No not moral argument, that's not what I said. I said that Inquisition started with the intent to crack down on fraudulent religions, but given it started on the middle of medieval ages, you need to use measures that are apropriate to the timeframe.

    In medieval times violence was not option, it was compulsory.
    Sure you can say Inquisition is barbaric by modern standards and you would be correct, but we're talking of centuries like X and XII century, where you don't have courts, lawyers or judges as an alternative, the only alternative is death penalty without trial or life prison on the dungeons.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 19, 2018 at 06:34 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #31

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    No not moral argument, that's not what I said. I said that Inquisition started with the intent to crack down on fraudulent religions, but given it started on the middle of medieval ages, you need to use measures that are apropriate to the timeframe.

    In medieval times violence was not option, it was compulsory.
    Sure you can say Inquisition is barbaric by modern standards and you would be correct, but we're talking of centuries like X and XII century, where you don't have courts, lawyers or judges as an alternative, the only alternative is death penalty without trial or life prison on the dungeons.
    Good grief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_litigation

    The Egyptians had viziers quite a bit before that if memory serves.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Thanks. My position is this: what makes the 'fake' preachers any different from the more mainstream religions? (Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity...) Do you understand my point. Lots of 'legit' religions also take donations from people as well.
    Mainstream does not equate to legitimate.

    If your point is that the mainstream religions also lie for the cash, I agree.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668D_MeV1nY

    Those were the precursors to todays televangelists and other fraudsters.

    Regards
    DL

  12. #32
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    Let's assume you know what sin is then you must know that I worship the one true God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do so because the Father revealed Jesus Christ to me as One who died to take away all my sin and guilt. Having been relieved of all that I now belong to Jesus Christ, my Saviour and therefore try to emulate Him in how I do things as a result. Do I manage? Very poorly is the answer.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Good grief.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_litigation
    The Egyptians had viziers quite a bit before that if memory serves.
    Regards
    DL
    Western Roman Empire had colapsed, so Roman Litigation wouldn't be around anymore. Egypt had been conquered by the Caliphates and Mamelukes, and their original civilization replaced by others.

    That evolution of lawfully treating citizens had gotten a reset back to ground 0 in europe, to be replaced by public lynching without trial.

    You could say in Eastern Rome/Byzantium that was not the case, and you could be correct, but that wasn't medieval europe.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 20, 2018 at 06:05 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  14. #34

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    Let's assume you know what sin is then you must know that I worship the one true God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do so because the Father revealed Jesus Christ to me as One who died to take away all my sin and guilt. Having been relieved of all that I now belong to Jesus Christ, my Saviour and therefore try to emulate Him in how I do things as a result. Do I manage? Very poorly is the answer.
    If you belong to someone, then that makes you a slave.

    I would not expect a slave to do the best work.

    You do know that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Right?

    Would he ignore his own ideology just to have your ilk inflate their egos to the point of thinking an immortal God would somehow lose his immortality and die for you?

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sonshall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear theiniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, andthe wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put todeath because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because oftheir fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
    If these quotes show justice, then your opposite view shows injustice. Right?

    Ignore your faith based fantasy and talk justice --- if you dare.

    Regards
    DL

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Western Roman Empire had colapsed, so Roman Litigation wouldn't be around anymore. Egypt had been conquered by the Caliphates and Mamelukes, and their original civilization replaced by others.

    That evolution of lawfully treating citizens had gotten a reset back to ground 0 in europe, to be replaced by public lynching without trial.

    You could say in Eastern Rome/Byzantium that was not the case, and you could be correct, but that wasn't medieval europe.
    There was no real separation of church and state back then. Religions always had their Divine Councils that would do the judging of cases if a political judge could not be found.

    You are talking of a chaotic lawless world where anyone could do anything without fear and no society would remain alive long if that were the case.

    That would be a world where freedom reined, and that would end security which is our first priority and so if all the judges suddenly died, the people would replace them in quick order. We are a sheepish tribal species and tribes always have a king and or shaman to judge things.

    Have you ever heard of a leaderless society? I have not.

    Regards
    DL

  15. #35

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    There was no real separation of church and state back then. Religions always had their Divine Councils that would do the judging of cases if a political judge could not be found.

    You are talking of a chaotic lawless world where anyone could do anything without fear and no society would remain alive long if that were the case.

    That would be a world where freedom reined, and that would end security which is our first priority and so if all the judges suddenly died, the people would replace them in quick order. We are a sheepish tribal species and tribes always have a king and or shaman to judge things.

    Have you ever heard of a leaderless society? I have not.

    Regards
    DL
    Mob lynching, or stoning people to death on the pillory was tolerated by the upper classe for they couldn't do much better in populace control. Energy spending on mob lynching was energy not spent on a peasants uprising agains the Nobles and King.
    Soldiers can only control civilian affairs so much.

    The alternative for population control was to have officers to hold public executions as a spectacle.

    Medieval times are no fluffy joke, they have plenty of good things but some extremely brutal ones too.

    That's history for you, standards of post-WWII humanist western life are mostly an alien concept in many periods.

    This state of affairs led to the church "other religions" regulating alternative you fear so much. It degenerated later, but for X-XII centuries it was yearned for.
    Kings often sponsored and instigated for more inquisition branches with tax payers money for it gave them a lot of extra information of what was going on the realm, even if the Papal States did not wish for that. This would create the cycle that would degenerate the original purpose.

    Even today mob lynchings or worse happen in south america, despite presence of militarized police forces, and used to happen in western world as well.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 20, 2018 at 12:43 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  16. #36

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Interesting. Thanks.


    Regards

    DL

  17. #37
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    No it doesn't make me a slave although being a slave for Christ is not such a bad idea as Paul has said. Jesus Christ was much more than a Rabbi as even the most uneducated person could tell by what is written of Him. So, what was this ideology you speak of? Everything He was and did fulfilled all that was written for the people to do. Jesus did not lose His immorality which was the reason He could rise from the dead after being my substitute on the cross paying my dues for my sin as well as many others. Rather than inflate my ego the exact opposite is my position because I didn't deserve such love from God.

    Regarding the quotes from Ezekiel and Deuteronomy they are quite true and what they point out is that each person is responsible for their own sin, the punishment for which is death and if that is not paid in this life, it certainly will be in the next. So, Christ paid that with His own blood at Calvary to save men and women from their sin in a once only sacrifice covering all time. In doing so the father was satisfied meaning that the Laws, Moses' or natural could no longer have any hold on them for whom He died. So much so that in the book to the Hebrews The Father proclaims that He never even knew them as having been sinners. Justice was truly served at Calvary by Jesus Christ. That is what is written. So my friend, one day you'll find that out for yourself.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    "Jesus did not lose His immorality which was the reason He could rise from the dead"

    Thanks for showing how ridiculous your beliefs are.

    An immortal dead man does not meat the criteria of the excluded middle.

    As to your overall immoral stance in making Jesus your scapegoat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg

    Regards
    DL

  19. #39
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    Stupidly I wrote immorality and not immortality so that was a mistake on my part. Jesus therefore did not lose His immortality simply because he did not die as Himself for becoming me it was me that was punished and washed by His blood. Regarding His morals it is without question that He was sinless in Himself. Further I did not make Jesus my scapegoat for that was all done and dusted before the worlds were made. That decision was purely one of and by the Godhead.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gnostic Christian Bishop,

    Stupidly I wrote immorality and not immortality so that was a mistake on my part. Jesus therefore did not lose His immortality simply because he did not die as Himself for becoming me it was me that was punished and washed by His blood. Regarding His morals it is without question that He was sinless in Himself. Further I did not make Jesus my scapegoat for that was all done and dusted before the worlds were made. That decision was purely one of and by the Godhead.
    I recognized that you had misspelled and that is why I spoke to immortality and not immorality.

    Did you not choose to accept the apostles creed which is something most Christians have to do in some form or other?

    That aside.

    You did/do make Jesus your scapegoat because you can accept or reject the salvation he offers. Right?

    Not that I believe he did offer anything.

    Regards
    DL

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