Reforming government in Empire and senate influence

[Carminus Julius]

Hello everyone i'm Carminus and i love this mod.
A while ago (patch 18) i started a grand campaign in Rome 2 DEI with Roma (Julii) and now i'm continuing to play (patch 19) even if i have some diplomatic problems (i also read another thread with a guy having the same problems, so i prefer not to go into details).

Back to the point, i conquered all Italy, Spain, Africa (excluding egypt) and i'm currently at imperium VI. A civil war started (Equites), but since my faction have a lot of influence (65%+ thanks to the civil war), only Sicily revolted. The other 2 parties have positive loyalty and since i had all the requisite to reform my government into an Empire, so i did.
The problem is, i still have all the malus of overinfluence on the senate (I'm considered a Tyrant so i have a lot of unit morale malus and public order penalty, etc) and the bonus (and malus) of the Empire are not so worth if i do not benefit from high influence (90% i think) like in the Octavian campaign. Am i missing something or there is no point in having so much influence on the senate even if it is needed to reform?
Thanks in advance.

[Dresden]

Political influence levels will always be there, you don't get rid of that by reforming the government to any type.

[Jcpmax]

So you still need to have a balanced senate, even if you are emperor?

[Jake Armitage]

So you still need to have a balanced senate, even if you are emperor?

Bonuses and maluses for political influence should depend on senators number only, not government type.

[Carminus Julius]

Political influence levels will always be there, you don't get rid of that by reforming the government to any type.

Ok if so then why with Augustus campaign we have a different kind of bonuses/malus within the senate? it just doesn't make sense since my faction leader is Emperor both in the grand campaign and in the Augustus one and the government type is the same.

[Dago Red]

Your influence is different in the different campaigns -- 48% in one so you don't even have a majority, and 67% in the other -- so of course there will be different effects. They are also different games, Grand vs Augustus so there may be some differences in those effect levels (not sure).

What perplexes me is how bad the negative effects are as an emperor with such high influence because I recall reading just recently that there's no downside to high influence anymore. In the previous version of vanilla, influence was a complicated mess and you didn't want it too high, or too low. Now they changed it to make more sense. So was this modded already by the team?

[Dresden]

Our influence level system has never changed. It depends on what the political tradition of your faction is.

The idea is that your culture/faction has a certain ideal (tradition) of what government should be. That determines your political party influence effect levels, which is something that doesn't change. So, you may have a different government type, but the expectations of your culture will remain the same in terms of how political traditions should go.

Historically speaking, Rome still had a Senate after becoming an Empire and had to deal with politics long into the Imperial times.

[Carminus Julius]

Your influence is different in the different campaigns -- 48% in one so you don't even have a majority, and 67% in the other -- so of course there will be different effects. They are also different games, Grand vs Augustus so there may be some differences in those effect levels (not sure).

What perplexes me is how bad the negative effects are as an emperor with such high influence because I recall reading just recently that there's no downside to high influence anymore. In the previous version of vanilla, influence was a complicated mess and you didn't want it too high, or too low. Now they changed it to make more sense. So was this modded already by the team?

Of course i know i have different influence, i was comparing the maximum level of influence in both campaign, not the current level. The fact is the bonuses/malus are different compared in all levels.

I have the same perplexity about high influence, that's why i asked. Is there any way to mod this?

Our influence level system has never changed. It depends on what the political tradition of your faction is.

The idea is that your culture/faction has a certain ideal (tradition) of what government should be. That determines your political party influence effect levels, which is something that doesn't change. So, you may have a different government type, but the expectations of your culture will remain the same in terms of how political traditions should go.

Historically speaking, Rome still had a Senate after becoming an Empire and had to deal with politics long into the Imperial times.

I guess you're right, but the maluses according to me are too heavy. Is there any way i can edit these myself? Thanks in advance.

[Dresden]

political party power effect table changes which ones are for which faction. The effect bundles to effects table (Politics_ entry) changes the effects.

[Jcpmax]

Sure there was still a senate when octavian took over, but in game terms he had almost total control of the senate. Julius caesar had too. I don't see how it should lower public order, but just give a very large malus to party loyality for example. Maybe a bonus to other parties commiting murder against your faction should receive a buff as well, though I don't know if this is possible.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Historically speaking the senate was still a very powerfull political body, at least throughtout the age of Principate.

There would always be some factions of senators supporting, and some factions of senators opposing the emperor's policies.

To control the senate was imperative for the emperor, but that control was certainly not given to him a priori. It had to be first gained and then systematically maintained and reinforced. Loosing that control was equal to committing a political suicide, or - as Nero could testify - not merely a political one.

The lack of stability at the centre could readily lead to the lack of stability in the peripheries, hence it is not inconceivable that game-wise that will result in the drop in the public order, I think.

[Jcpmax]

Sure. But it seems kind of odd that the same maluses apply to the empire government form. Surely you more support in the senate would be a benefit for this government form. Seems odd to be an emperor and favoring having a balanced senate. I understand that there needs to be some balance, but most roman emperors at the foundation and even before would surely be one or two steps above respected in the senate. I mean the emperorship of octavian began the most peaceful peroid in roman history, the Pax Romana, and he certainly held most of the senate. Just a pet peeve and nothing too serious that needs changing, just discussing it.

> The Senate ostensibly still had power and authority over certain Senatorial provinces, but the critical border provinces, such as Syria, Egypt, and Gaul, requiring the greatest numbers of legions, would be directly ruled by Augustus and succeeding Emperors.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Yes, that's true. That was indeed crucial for an emperor to have the backing of the Senate. In game-terms I would, however, translate this backing as an ability to maintain a fine balance between the influence of different senatorial factions.

Historically, the Senate was, at least to some extent, an independent political body where a wise emperor would allow a moderate opposition to exist. In strictly legal terms the emperor was just another senator, though the most prominent one, primus inter pares - the first from among the equals. It was only the accumulation of various senatorial (censorship, very often consulship) and non-senatorial (pontifex maximus, tribunicia potestas) powers that set him apart from the other members of his social class. One shouldn't thus confuse this system with let's say the parliamentary monarchy where the King and the Senate constitute two separate political bodies. The Roman emperor and the Senate were one, at least in the legal terms. If an emperor, or more broadly speaking, emperor's faction would seek to gain too much influence for themselves he might be considered a tyrant which in turn may lead to a political turmoil, or even an open rebellion. That's why maintaing the balance would be the best means of maintaing the control, I believe.

> The Senate ostensibly still had power and authority over certain Senatorial provinces, but the critical border provinces, such as Syria, Egypt, and Gaul, requiring the greatest numbers of legions, would be directly ruled by Augustus and succeeding Emperors.

That's also correct, though, just for the record, it is also noteworthy to say that the emperor did not obviously govern his provinces himself. It was the senators who did it (with some exceptions where the governors where recruited from among ordo equites), pretty much as it was in the case of senatorial provinces. The only difference was that the emperor made himself the appointments for his provinces, while for the senatorial provinces the senators had the right to choose governors among themselves.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

You're having a nice conversation here guys. Good points from everyone.

[DoctorJLee]

political party power effect table changes which ones are for which faction. The effect bundles to effects table (Politics_ entry) changes the effects.

I was wondering which entries I need to change in this table to affect the public order negatives/bonuses from the influence in the senate.

[bank24647]

I was wondering which entries I need to change in this table to affect the public order negatives/bonuses from the influence in the senate.

It in part1.pack file>db>effect_bundle_to_effect_junction_table>Politic_imperium.......
then you should know how to do the rest.

in case if you don't know how to begin
1.download pfm
2.open divide et impera part1.pack

[HelvetinBarbaari]

I was senate related question i think aplies here.. I started as rome and first, let met tell you, I freaking love this mod! Just might even end up paying for something, truly amazing! I thought Darth mod was good back in the days of Empire total war.. Well, anyway!

My chief problem is my influence. It's getting too big. I'd like to keep it down. Best ways to do that? Do i just marry the guys from other partys or..?

[georgioz]

I am with Seleukos on the historical perspective. Rome has opposition against the king in its DNA with law allowing killing anybody declaring himself a king with impunity. It was not until much later after the crisis of the 3rd century where the princeps model of emperors as first among equals gave way to the divine right more in line with traditional monarchies and empires.

Anyways as for the game balance there is a simple strategy to manage your influence. You can use divorce for some random politicians in your ruling faction to keep the influence down. Later on with enough money you can use "gain support" political action for your faction leader to gain the influence. Using these two political factions you may keep the overall influence right where you need it.

[guto8797]

The problem is that you can only really change the gravitas of your faction members, not the overall influence in the senate. I often times find myself struggling to give more power to other factions, but while my family tree has 20 members after 1 generation, the AI seems to get 4 or 5