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Thread: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

  1. #61

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    i don't understand why people discuss about already fact and truth.

    it's just simple. cleopatra was makedonian descendant.[of course white]

    otherwise it's just kind of communism propaganda or modern crazy politics etc.[just ingnore wrong propaganda]

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by servent9 View Post
    i don't understand why people discuss about already fact and truth.

    it's just simple. cleopatra was makedonian descendant.[of course white]

    otherwise it's just kind of communism propaganda or modern crazy politics etc.[just ingnore wrong propaganda]
    Communism and modern propaganda are not the subjects of this thread, although you are more than welcome to talk about ancient Roman or Ptolemaic propaganda as it relates to the artwork of the ancient iconography and portraits of Cleopatra. I'm becoming more and more convinced that 90% of the posters here have not actually read the OP.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Your OP title is literally begging to be attracted to questions such as that regardless of your OP's original intent. Especially with today's "active" atmosphere regarding race and skin color.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Your OP title is literally begging to be attracted to questions such as that regardless of your OP's original intent. Especially with today's "active" atmosphere regarding race and skin color.
    I suppose that's what I get for being facetious and sarcastic.

    For anyone who's actually paying attention and wants to contribute in a serious manner: does anyone have a good source on the Cleopatra bust from the Capitoline Museums? I'd like to know more about it. It's another Parian-marble Roman bust, apparently, but it's the only one I've read about that features Cleopatra wearing an Egyptian-style vulture headdress. All her other portraits, it would seem, show her wearing the Hellenistic-Greek diadem, her preferred symbol of royal authority. That includes sculpture, paintings, and coinage portraits. Joann Fletcher mentions it, but Duane W. Roller skips it entirely in his analysis of various ancient works of art depicting Cleopatra. Unfortunately I can't find an image of it with a suitable copyright for uploading to Wikimedia, and the only version of it available at Wikimedia Commons has this ridiculous artsy-looking background. Looks like someone snapped a photo of it inside a Mexican Cartel bunker.


  5. #65

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I suppose that's what I get for being facetious and sarcastic.
    Well yeah, and it also demonstrates one of the reasons why you shouldn't use click bait.


    Unfortunately I can't find an image of it with a suitable copyright for uploading to Wikimedia, and the only version of it available at Wikimedia Commons has this ridiculous artsy-looking background. Looks like someone snapped a photo of it inside a Mexican Cartel bunker.
    That's actually part of the Capitoline Museums, or rather the branch of it that isn't located on the Capitol due to spatial limitations. It's in an old factory. I can look if I have a better picture of it somewhere, although I don't even remember this particular portrait, so probably not.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Well yeah, and it also demonstrates one of the reasons why you shouldn't use click bait.

    That's actually part of the Capitoline Museums, or rather the branch of it that isn't located on the Capitol due to spatial limitations. It's in an old factory. I can look if I have a better picture of it somewhere, although I don't even remember this particular portrait, so probably not.
    Damn. And here I thought someone just photo-shopped the bust into some cheesy background for no good reason. I've actually been to the Capitoline Hill in Rome, but I didn't go into the museum, sadly. I did see a bunch of antiquities and old stuff on display inside the Coliseum, though, and I definitely got burned out on that stuff at the Vatican Museums the same day (followed by a trip to the Pantheon). If you have any old pics with this particular bust, it would be fantastic if you could share it and upload it to Wikimedia! If not, no worries. The boilerplate room will have to do, I guess.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    If anyone is interested, my Wiki article on Cleopatra is now a current Featured article candidate. Make comments there if you like!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra

    In terms of imagery, I think the article has a fine balance between native Egyptian-style depictions of Cleopatra and Greco-Roman ones.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    My very first Youtube video ever, about ancient Roman depictions of Cleopatra VII of Egypt. Please be gentle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQOXk9ZEoc

  9. #69

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    just give it a rest already.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    I've read all of your stuff on this topic online.
    It's a generally well-argued and quite comprehensively illustrated body of work on the subject of historic iconography.
    You could say even that it was a timely addition to the "Was Cleopatra White?" debate going on among serious historians. Or you could, if anyone above high school grade was having that debate. I can't see where they are.
    I have to add, that you are the first person claiming historical chops I've read in quite a while claiming to have actually proved something. Have you thought of approaching a publisher?

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by sarpedon21 View Post
    just give it a rest already.
    Ah! Look who's all upset! Too much for you to absorb? All those big words and pages of text. It's probably exhausting for you.

    TWC is probably not your cup of tea, then. Perhaps you can find some like-minded individuals at this website instead: http://pbskids.org/games/coloring/

    Have fun over there! They've got a lot more pictures than this thread. And you can color them too!

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    I've read all of your stuff on this topic online.
    It's a generally well-argued and quite comprehensively illustrated body of work on the subject of historic iconography.
    You could say even that it was a timely addition to the "Was Cleopatra White?" debate going on among serious historians. Or you could, if anyone above high school grade was having that debate. I can't see where they are.
    I have to add, that you are the first person claiming historical chops I've read in quite a while claiming to have actually proved something. Have you thought of approaching a publisher?
    Well, the thread title is in jest (click-bait, really) and kind of stating the obvious, isn't it? She was a Macedonian Greek, after all. No one disputes that except for the crazies and conspiracy theorists. Besides, I'd hardly be the first to describe her as being white or having Caucasian features. Joann Fletcher (2008) offers serious speculation that she was a redhead and asserts strongly that several of her ancestors were blondes. Susan Walker (2008) describes her painting in the House of Marcus Fabius Rufus at Pompeii as showing a woman with "pale ivory" skin, which is obvious when you look at the painting, but she also studiously compares this and other features to how Romans depicted deities like Venus (since she's supposed to represent Venus Genetrix, after all).

    If I approached a publisher, for either an academic or popular publishing company, I would offer a much more serious thesis than "HER SKIN WAS WHITE", although I suppose there is some value in offering critical examinations of the wild ramblings of some Afrocentric authors. Prudence Jones (2006) even quoted one at length in her academic source-book, some guy from the 80s who was rambling about how Cleopatra was black because Shakespeare said so!

  12. #72

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    I understand. I once got a dissertation on the influence of Elizabethan court politics on Shakespeare's tragedies back with a rotten mark and "You haven't discussed whether he was WHITE or not!!!!" written in RED pen underneath.
    I am aware it was click bait. I wonder if you have asked yourself what sorts of people it would be click bait for? Surely, the pigmentation of a person's skin is possibly the least informative and least relevant possible topic for historical debate.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    The thing that was notable about Cleopatra was that unlike most of her predecessors, she appears to have made a genuine effort to learn about native culture and religion. Most other Ptolemaic rulers seem to have treated it as little more than something to pay lip service to for their sinecures.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  14. #74
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    I understand. I once got a dissertation on the influence of Elizabethan court politics on Shakespeare's tragedies back with a rotten mark and "You haven't discussed whether he was WHITE or not!!!!" written in RED pen underneath.
    What? That's insane. Sounds like a school in Zimbabwe or something.

    I am aware it was click bait. I wonder if you have asked yourself what sorts of people it would be click bait for? Surely, the pigmentation of a person's skin is possibly the least informative and least relevant possible topic for historical debate.
    It falls in line with other goofy thread titles I've made in the past. It's my sense of humor and I think most people are accustomed to it by now, but for those who aren't they usually barge into my threads in a huff, distraught about things, which is good for comedic effect I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The thing that was notable about Cleopatra was that unlike most of her predecessors, she appears to have made a genuine effort to learn about native culture and religion. Most other Ptolemaic rulers seem to have treated it as little more than something to pay lip service to for their sinecures.
    Cleopatra was surely unique in that regard. This along with the fact that she had an Egyptian half-cousin, a priest of Ptah, has led Duane W. Roller and others to speculate if her (unknown) mother was part Egyptian, more specifically a half-Egyptian half-Greek (which would make Cleopatra a quarter Egyptian). That's all speculation, though, and most historians to this day still assume her mother to have been Cleopatra V Tryphaena, the wife of Ptolemy XII (Cleo's father). Egyptian also wasn't the only foreign language learned by Cleopatra. She learned how to speak Latin, obviously, but also knew Median, Parthian Iranian, Ethiopian, Syriac, Hebrew (or Aramaic), and Arabic. Her acquiring of these languages, including Egyptian, reflected her territorial ambitions. Her gender didn't exactly make her control of the throne very secure, especially without a kingly husband. It's the reason why she was willing to marry Ptolemy XIV, her brother, and when she had him killed she immediately elevated her son Caesarion to his position. If she hadn't done so she probably would have faced a riot in Alexandria of angry subjects who would not be led solely by a woman. It's the reason she placed the child Caesarion in front of her in the reliefs at the Temple of Dendera, depicting him as a fully-grown adult even though he was just a little kid at the time. He was only 17 when executed by Octavian in August 30 BC.

    In essence, one should probably view Cleopatra's learning of the Egyptian language in line with her insecurities as a ruler and part of her program of learning other languages (outside her native Koine Greek) in order to appeal to a broad range of potential new subjects in and around the Mediterranean. That was very much a reality when Mark Antony bequeathed huge swaths of territory to her and made the joint announcement of the Declarations of Alexandria. Cleopatra even wanted to have her son Alexander Helios (fathered by Antony) to rule over the Parthian Empire! While she would be his feudal superior and liege lord, the Queen of Kings.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    My son is half Shona. The schools there are generally extremely good, with a high premium put on a traditional education based on the widespread attainment of excellence and high standards of manners and behaviour.
    The education system is one of the few things Zimbabweans give credit to Uncle Bob for.
    You're not having much luck are you?

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    My son is half Shona. The schools there are generally extremely good, with a high premium put on a traditional education based on the widespread attainment of excellence and high standards of manners and behaviour.
    The education system is one of the few things Zimbabweans give credit to Uncle Bob for.
    You're not having much luck are you?
    Holy crap, I was just joking. I didn't actually think you were from Zimbabwe. Talk about "pinning the tail on the donkey"! So to speak.

    I am aware that some aspects of the healthcare system there are okay, too. Palliative care, for instance, is improving in the country, despite Zimbabwe's economy being royally screwed (thanks largely to Uncle Bob Mugabe, as you allude to). You ever been to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe? Anywho, you might find this TWC thread interesting, not about the Shona people, but about the apparently lost medieval cities of the nearby Tswana people in the northern part of South Africa:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ser-technology

  17. #77

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    No, I haven't been to Great Zimbabwe. I'd love to see it. Have you ever read any of the wild Eurocentric speculation that it was built by the Phoenicians or the Portuguese?

  18. #78

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Thanks for that link. It's a good read.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    butthurt much victrix?

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    No, I haven't been to Great Zimbabwe. I'd love to see it. Have you ever read any of the wild Eurocentric speculation that it was built by the Phoenicians or the Portuguese?
    No, but that sounds absurd. For starters, how could anyone confuse the ruins of Great Zimbabwe with 16th-century Portuguese architecture? Lol. That's a retarded hypothesis. Same with the ancient Phoenicians, who lived in North Africa during Antiquity. That's about as far from the Zimbabwean interior as the distance between Paris, France and Tehran, Iran, with the gigantic Sahara Desert in between. Anyone who even suggests that the Phoenicians colonized southern Africa doesn't know anything about history.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarpedon21 View Post
    butthurt much victrix?
    Shouldn't you be playing with your coloring book by now? Go get your coloring book.

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