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Thread: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

  1. #141
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    You are referring to skin tone. In the genetic and physical sense skin tone isn't a major factor. Any and all populations can have different skin tones within reason. For example if you go to Britain or Sweden you are bound to find local people who were born with more melanin. An albino Kenyan isn't White in the ethnic sense, they still have African features and likely no "European" ancestry to speak of, so you cannot trace his light skin to a genetic trait, since naturally Achromia is a skin disorder. I think this is what you are confusing.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; May 30, 2018 at 01:33 AM.

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  2. #142
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    No, I really don't. He looks like an average white European to me. He doesn't look radically different from Diana as you are suggesting. I could easily mistake him for just another British guy talking to her. Your definition of white is a strange one, I have to say. I'm starting to think you mean literal freakish paper-white instead of just various hues like beige and pink that virtually all Europeans have, to say nothing of North African, West Asian, and Central Asian Caucasian peoples.



    Again, what? Apparently you're looking at a different picture than the one I'm looking at. You seem to have some sort of strange definition of whiteness as being only milky ivory white. Most white people don't even look like that. Most "white" people have a beige or even pinkish hue to their skin. That's as true as it is for Scottish people as it is for Greeks and Afghans and Spaniards and Frenchmen and Tajiks and Russians, etc.
    No, I don't mean "white as a sheet". Why is it so difficult to understand?



    0-13 or perhaps 14 is white. The vast Majority of Greeks are 15-19. Juan Carlos seems like a 16 or 17 to me in that pic while Diana is like a 7-8.
    The Alexander mosaic? He looks like a 25-26 and I really, really doubt he was that brown. He was probably a bit darker than Juan Carlos, because he was travelling through the deserts so much.
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  3. #143
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    You are referring to skin tone. In the genetic and physical sense skin tone isn't a major factor. Any and all populations can have different skin tones within reason. For example if you go to Britain or Sweden you are bound to find local people who were born with more melanin. An albino Kenyan isn't White in the ethnic sense, they still have African features and likely no "European" ancestry to speak of, so you can trace his light skin to a genetic trait, since naturally Achromia is a skin disorder. I think this is what you are confusing.
    Of course I was referring to skin tone... what else can the white-brown-yellow-red refer to?
    If they wanted to discriminate on people based on say... nose shape, they could call them "nosers" and count how English closer to the true and clearly superior nose shape people's shapes are.
    But again, if they went by nose shape and their King was born with a crooked nose, he would be a filthy noser.


    If they wanted to go by ancestry and all, they should not have abolished nobility.

    Look, I know they wanted to discriminate on Africans, but skin tone is skin tone. You can't say "white" and mean "an arbitrary definition that actually has little to do with color and more with the genetic ancestry of the person".
    And I still cannot understand how they called Irish different! They can't be that different than English in genetics (let alone color).
    Last edited by alhoon; May 30, 2018 at 01:34 AM.
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  4. #144

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    I think you guys are probably arguing over white vs Caucasian. "Caucasians" can have almost any skin color other than maybe charcoal black. So white/Caucasian (usually synonyms) people don't all literally have white skin. It can be yellow or brown too, even among Northern Europeans.

    (This picture includes populations with heavy African or Asian ancestry, but that probably doesn't include Greeks)



    Do I really have to pull out the Boehner again?



    Boehner is German-Irish.
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  5. #145
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    OK, when the thread asks if Cleopatra was white... does it mean skin tone or ... ????
    ??? being something else that doesn't reflect skin tone and could well have been say "purple" or "flower".
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  6. #146
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Do I really have to pull out the Boehner again?
    I see what you did there.

    Jesus, he's basically the same tone as Obama here and Obama is half-black/half Kenyan. The major difference is obviously in their other physical features, including facial structures, hair and eye colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, I don't mean "white as a sheet". Why is it so difficult to understand?
    It's difficult to understand because you are coming to radically different conclusions about the same pieces of art and photographs. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because every depiction of a supposed non-white person to you looks about averagely white European to me. That includes Alexander, whose skin is clearly pinkish (like most Caucasians) with bright spots due to realistic lighting and shading.

    In either case, let's bring this back to Cleopatra, please. We should be discussing the works of art presented in the OP and elsewhere in this thread, particularly the paintings from Pompeii and Herculaneum. They show a clearly light-skinned Caucasian woman, but that's obvious and superficial to anyone who knows her ancestry. What they also show are her symbols of Greek Hellenistic kingship, her royal diadem and her melon-style hairdo sported by previous Ptolemaic queens.

  7. #147
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Okay but your position is that Greeks and other Mediterranean people are not White because they don't generally conform to a specific skin tone. Where as this is even the case in places like Britain etc. It is kind of impossible to have someone in one of these populations to be born with extremely dark skin without interbreeding. Likewise they can't really have African physical traits without interbreeding either. Usually Europeans fall into a consistent spectrum and share genes from intermingled populations. You could probably divide Europe along a north-south basis; Northerners and Mediterraneans. You could go further if you wanted to go into specific haplogroups. Though keep in mind that even here the R1a (associated with eastern Europe) and R1b (commonly associated with western Europe, though oddly enough I1 is dominant in Nordic countries) both originate from R DNA. R1b is also dominant in Mediterranean populations in Italy and Spain, where as J2 and E1 are more common in Greece and Anatolia. In the rest of the Balkans I2a is most prevalent. Whether darker skinned peoples in Europe are due to a natural range of melanin content in a population or if it is due to ancient interbreeding and therefore an extreme case of Atavism, is hard to be certain. But even so Europeans share genetics on a rather consistent basis.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; May 30, 2018 at 01:57 AM. Reason: the Demonic Atavism of the Mazuku clan

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  8. #148
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    We should be discussing the works of art presented in the OP and elsewhere in this thread, particularly the paintings from Pompeii and Herculaneum. They show a clearly light-skinned Caucasian woman, but that's obvious and superficial to anyone who knows her ancestry. What they also show are her symbols of Greek Hellenistic kingship, her royal diadem and her melon-style hairdo sported by previous Ptolemaic queens.
    Frankly, with no disrespect to Cleo, she seems like the average village Greek girl, including the hair bun. She also seems... very Greek. I can't exactly place it but she doesn't have some Greek features, she has most of them. Another reason that I call her a "village" girl, cause in the rural areas there is less mix with other people.
    I swear she also reminds me of a couple of village girls but I can't remember their names. PS. Greek village girls are often darker skinned than people from Athens or from the areas that we had more mix with the Slavs. However, this could be because of mix by Saracens or...because they work in the sun.

    Greek skin color: @Oda: Sure, but what in 500 AD was the darkest 1% of skins in the British isles in here it was the median.
    Another thing: My sister was quite dark, much darker than me. She lived ~20 years in Northern Italy, catching far less sun. She is now much paler than what she was as a teenager from pics we have etc.
    What I want to say with that? In summer my sis was mistaken for non-Greek by tourists 20-25 years ago. I am still casually considered European on the street because of my pale skin. Greek criers occasionally mistake me for a tourist. :-(

    So no, skin color for many people = where you are from.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 30, 2018 at 02:10 AM.
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  9. #149

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    "Racial" classification systems are obviously inherently arbitrary, but in general races are classified according to skeletal features more than skin color. And maybe whiteness has a cultural component to it too; the more "civilized" you are, the more you're considered white. That could be why the Italians, Irish, etc., magically became white after they assimilated into Anglo culture.

    I honestly have no idea why people think Nordics are the owners of the white race. Who says that how white you are is determined by how Nordic you look? Mediterraneans definitely have a bigger claim to inventing civilization and Western culture. Just saying.

    I say, if you don't have dark hair and dark eyes, then you're not Caucasian. I mean how many blue-eyed blondes are there in Armenia?
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  10. #150
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Frankly, with no disrespect to Cleo, she seems like the average village Greek girl, including the hair bun. She also seems... very Greek. I can't exactly place it but she doesn't have some Greek features, she has most of them. Another reason that I call her a "village" girl, cause in the rural areas there is less mix with other people.
    That's an interesting observation actually, given the comparison I made of Cleopatra a couple pages ago to a couple of modern Macedonian Greek girls who are clearly rural country bumpkins in super traditional Greek clothing (at least from the period of Ottoman occupation...the period of the brown oppressors ). Cleopatra's ancestor was Ptolemy I Soter, whose father was Lagus, from Eordaia, apparently a guy of low birth (or at least completely unknown). The guy probably came from a family of Macedonian goat herders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagus

  11. #151
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Those two have blue eyes. I don't think we had blue eyes. I think that's Slavic blood there. I would be surprised if Cleopatra had blue eyes.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  12. #152
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Greeks still shared European genetics from ancient migratory populations. As we mentioned before and Sumskilz proved, there were fair skinned, light haired and blue eyed people living within Anatolia and by extension the Balkans, as early as the Bronze Age.
    Also as we covered the Macedonians and Epirotes both interbred and were the result of interbreeding between Bronze Age populations such as Doric peoples, Pelasgians, Illyrians, Thracians etc.

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  13. #153
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Pelasgians and Thracians were not Greeks though. Not sure about Illyrians. Dorians and Ionians were and some people count Minoans as Greeks.

    @RV: "The Tomba di Nerone Cleopatra": that can't be right. She looks like she's from central Greece there. Different kind of Greek than the other busts (a mix of Ionian and Doric Greeks). They probably made that one far later, in a different place and just got some of her grand-grand-nephews or something hoping there would be a resemblance.
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  14. #154
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    And another thing about her color: Whomever thinks that for several generations queens never had "on the side" guys for when their husbands were campaigning is putting too much value on the fidelity of women with practically very little to do and no husband.

    There is a good chance IMO that one of Cleopatra's ancestors was not a Ptolemy but a pretty palace guard or stable boy. And those would be darker than Dorian Greeks.

    But... since apparently skin color doesn't count to call someone white or brown, do we consider ancient Egyptians to be "white"? As in, light brown fellows that we call white regardless or "Dark-Whites"?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  15. #155
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Pelasgians and Thracians were not Greeks though. Not sure about Illyrians. Dorians and Ionians were and some people count Minoans as Greeks.

    @RV: "The Tomba di Nerone Cleopatra": that can't be right. She looks like she's from central Greece there. Different kind of Greek than the other busts (a mix of Ionian and Doric Greeks). They probably made that one far later, in a different place and just got some of her grand-grand-nephews or something hoping there would be a resemblance.
    That statue, now in the Museo Pio-Clementino in the Vatican, is interesting in that it uses a 5th-century BC Greek Classical body with a head added later, presumably in the late 1st century BC, around the time of Cleopatra's life or shortly thereafter. The Roman artist saw no qualms using the monumental body for the head of Cleo. In either case the facial features of that statue conform with her other portraits, as do her melon-style hairdo and royal diadem. I think it's interesting how you believe she looks radically different, an Ionian even. Since I'm not Greek it is impossible for me to sniff out these seemingly minute differences, but one would imagine all Greek populations, Doric, Ionian, or whatever would look comparatively the same and would be largely indistinguishable.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Those two have blue eyes. I don't think we had blue eyes. I think that's Slavic blood there. I would be surprised if Cleopatra had blue eyes.
    Lol. What? I mean, yes, a lot of Slavs have blue eyes, but blue eyes existed in the Balkans long before they showed up. In that same token, Nordic peoples do not have a monopoly on light eye color and light hair color. Those features still exist as far afield as Xinjiang, China and Baluchistan, Iran. In either case the two girls in the photo are undeniably Greek. They ooze Greekness. I bet they were born knowing how to make moussaka.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And another thing about her color: Whomever thinks that for several generations queens never had "on the side" guys for when their husbands were campaigning is putting too much value on the fidelity of women with practically very little to do and no husband.

    There is a good chance IMO that one of Cleopatra's ancestors was not a Ptolemy but a pretty palace guard or stable boy. And those would be darker than Dorian Greeks.

    But... since apparently skin color doesn't count to call someone white or brown, do we consider ancient Egyptians to be "white"? As in, light brown fellows that we call white regardless or "Dark-Whites"?
    Most ancient Egyptians, like modern ones, can be categorized as Caucasians, but there was and is considerable admixture with the black sub-Saharan population of ancient Sudan, the land of Nubia that spawned the Kerma culture and the Kingdom of Kush. They were undeniably black and were conquered by the New Kingdom of Egypt. In turn, they conquered Egypt under Pharaoh Piye of the 25th dynasty and ruled it for about a century before the Assyrians booted them out and drove them back into Nubia.

    As for Cleopatra or the Ptolemaic rulers having potential ethnic Egyptian lovers on the side, I think I have addressed this fully on the previous page and others. Let's not beat this dead horse to a pulp, please. It's annoying to say the least.

    EDIT: aside from the black American guy at the very beginning, everyone in this video is an ethnic Greek living in Greece. They all look white to me, with various skin tones along with varied colors of hair and eyes, from light to dark, but they all generally look like the same ethnic group, at least to my untrained eye. Apparently Alhoon can spot a Dorian and an Ionian among such a gathering. Perhaps such unique abilities are only available to those who make sacrificial offering to the big Z-Man himself, Zeus.


  16. #156
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    I know, I said that they interbred. The Macedonians had no issues with marrying barbarians.

    When Roma uses the term "White" he is referring to an ethnic group as per the American perception. There is no Brown ethnic group.

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  17. #157

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    See how much darker Juan Carlos is that Diana?
    That's a very common skin tone for middle-aged white men of various ethnic backgrounds. By the way, I know several ethnic Germans who wouldn't pass as white by your definition. I also know from experience that there are intermediate European types (particularly those of mixed ancestry) who can pass as native anywhere on the continent, irrespective of local averages. Are they not "white"?

  18. #158

    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Those two have blue eyes. I don't think we had blue eyes. I think that's Slavic blood there. I would be surprised if Cleopatra had blue eyes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Greeks still shared European genetics from ancient migratory populations. As we mentioned before and Sumskilz proved, there were fair skinned, light haired and blue eyed people living within Anatolia and by extension the Balkans, as early as the Bronze Age.
    Specifically from the area of modern Greece, there was a late Neolithic individual from Kleitos who had one copy of the blue eyes allele. Odds are it wasn't that rare for it to show up in the few samples we have on both sides of the Aegean. The Mesolithic hunter gatherers (who generally had dark skin and blue eyes) contributed a small amount to the later mostly Near Eastern derived population.

    This is regarding five Neolithic genomes, four of which are from modern Greece, the other is from Northwestern Anatolia:

    Sequences in and around genes underlying the phenotypes hypothesized to have undergone positive selection in Europeans indicate that the Neolithic Aegeans were unlikely to have been lactase persistent but carried derived SLC24A5 rs1426654 and SLC45A2 rs16891982 alleles associated with reduced skin pigmentation. Because our Aegean samples predate the period when the rs4988235 T-allele associated with lactase persistence in Eurasia reached an appreciable frequency in Europe, around 4 kya (12⇓–14), and because this allele remains at relatively low frequencies (<0.15) in modern Greek, Turkish, and Sardinian populations (15), this observation is unsurprising. However, despite their relatively low latitude, four of the Aegean individuals are homozygous for the derived rs1426654 T-allele in the SLC24A5 gene, and four carry at least one copy of the derived rs16891982 G-allele in the SLC45A2 gene. This suggests that these reduced-pigmentation–associated alleles were at appreciable frequency in Neolithic Aegeans and that skin depigmentation was not solely a high-latitude phenomenon (SI Appendix, SI12. Functional Markers). The derived rs12913832 G-allele in the HERC2 domain of the OCA2 gene was heterozygous in one individual (Klei10), but all other Aegeans for whom the allelic state at this locus could be determined were homozygous for the ancestral allele, indicating a lack of iris depigmentation in these individuals.
    Different hair colors and lactase persistence probably first arrived with the Indo-European languages in the Bronze Age, the later Slavic influence would have obviously contributed more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #159
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That statue, now in the Museo Pio-Clementino in the Vatican, is interesting in that it uses a 5th-century BC Greek Classical body with a head added later, presumably in the late 1st century BC, around the time of Cleopatra's life or shortly thereafter. The Roman artist saw no qualms using the monumental body for the head of Cleo. In either case the facial features of that statue conform with her other portraits, as do her melon-style hairdo and royal diadem. I think it's interesting how you believe she looks radically different, an Ionian even. Since I'm not Greek it is impossible for me to sniff out these seemingly minute differences, but one would imagine all Greek populations, Doric, Ionian, or whatever would look comparatively the same and would be largely indistinguishable.



    Lol. What? I mean, yes, a lot of Slavs have blue eyes, but blue eyes existed in the Balkans long before they showed up. In that same token, Nordic peoples do not have a monopoly on light eye color and light hair color. Those features still exist as far afield as Xinjiang, China and Baluchistan, Iran. In either case the two girls in the photo are undeniably Greek. They ooze Greekness. I bet they were born knowing how to make moussaka.



    Most ancient Egyptians, like modern ones, can be categorized as Caucasians, but there was and is considerable admixture with the black sub-Saharan population of ancient Sudan, the land of Nubia that spawned the Kerma culture and the Kingdom of Kush. They were undeniably black and were conquered by the New Kingdom of Egypt. In turn, they conquered Egypt under Pharaoh Piye of the 25th dynasty and ruled it for about a century before the Assyrians booted them out and drove them back into Nubia.

    As for Cleopatra or the Ptolemaic rulers having potential ethnic Egyptian lovers on the side, I think I have addressed this fully on the previous page and others. Let's not beat this dead horse to a pulp, please. It's annoying to say the least.

    EDIT: aside from the black American guy at the very beginning, everyone in this video is an ethnic Greek living in Greece. They all look white to me, with various skin tones along with varied colors of hair and eyes, from light to dark, but they all generally look like the same ethnic group, at least to my untrained eye. Apparently Alhoon can spot a Dorian and an Ionian among such a gathering. Perhaps such unique abilities are only available to those who make sacrificial offering to the big Z-Man himself, Zeus.

    Interesting stuff here.

    First and foremost: I am no expert. Take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Second: I am not sure we had blue eyes in antiquity. I have heard that Dorian Greeks often had blue eyes, but I simply considered it a lie or propaganda by rightwings to make Aryans seem closer "racially" to Spartans \ Macedonians (the most recognized Dorians) as well as make Aryans seem closer to Spartans racially so that Nazis could talk about Leonidas and Thermopylae etc etc without putting up images of dark-haired and brown-eye people.
    No offense, but I still don't believe blue eyes were common around here and I think it's something the eugenics-supporting historians of the 1920s promoted. I don't say they were unheard of, I say they were probably very rare.

    About those two girls: Especially the left one is completely Dorian in appearance except the blue eyes. She's a bit light-skinned because she doesn't actually work in fields. A few months on the field and she will turn a nice Mediterranean brown.
    I have seen the busts of Cleo you put up and if you said to someone there "See that bust? This is the bust of the aunt of those two girls!" people would believe you.

    Dorian \ Ionians: I ... mostly go by "hey, that one seems like she's from Volos!" (Dorian Greeks 3500 years ago, influenced by Ionians later on, who knows what they are today after a couple thousand years since we were conquered by Romans).

    About us looking similar: Greeks are a small population and we prefer to marry Greeks so... we tend to look a bit similar. I could often tell a Greek on the streets of Dusseldorf or Vienna or Aachen.

    Ptolemies and Egyptian lovers: @RV: I read some of what you wrote. In short: I strongly disagree with many of your assumptions, but since you're tired of talking about that, I won't go into detail. I will just say that if you meant "White" as "pure Greek" in the OP, I disagree for (reasons) and I believe she had some ancient Egyptian blood. Now, if you count Ancient Egyptians as white too... then there's no way she couldn't be white.

    Macedonians marrying Barbarians: @Oda: That Alexander did it and his generals did it, doesn't mean the rest did. Sure, people that were in the middle of Asia and haven't seen home for years, would marry locals. But those Macedonians back home would probably snub them and go for the local girls, that knew how to cook, how to respect their mothers-in-law, knew the language etc etc.

    About the video of the Pagans: Well, that religion is crawling with nationalists. Regardless, one of those speaking seems to have a lot of Albanian blood to me. Regardless, I wouldn't call most of them white to be sincere. White as in skin tone. I don't understand well what you people mean when you say "white". I read "white" and I think very pale skin. I read "black" and I think very dark skin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    I know, I said that they interbred. The Macedonians had no issues with marrying barbarians.

    When Roma uses the term "White" he is referring to an ethnic group as per the American perception. There is no Brown ethnic group.
    I didn't know that Americans considered "White" an ethnic group.
    Not to mention that Europeans have many ethnic groups! Why not call them "European-ancestry" or something?
    It is very bizarre to me that "White" can refer to an ad-hoc mix of ethnic groups and not skin tone.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    That's a very common skin tone for middle-aged white men of various ethnic backgrounds. By the way, I know several ethnic Germans who wouldn't pass as white by your definition. I also know from experience that there are intermediate European types (particularly those of mixed ancestry) who can pass as native anywhere on the continent, irrespective of local averages. Are they not "white"?
    As I said, I wouldn't consider an albino Sudanese as "black" and I was mostly laughed at.
    We don't misuse skin colors for definition of ethnicity here. Black means black skin, not African. Our racists discriminate and use derogatory terms about one's origin\nationality by using origin, nationality, ethnicity etc, not skin tone.
    The one racist I know that compares skin tone to see a person's "worth", goes completely by skin tone, considers dark-skinned Greeks worse than light-skinned Greeks etc. And he's not the only one; darker skin in a Greek used to mean "work in the fields" = poorer. The same way as people use "redneck" as derogatory term.
    So from "darker skin" = "poor" it grew that "darker skin" = "bad". Nationality doesn't come to it.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 30, 2018 at 04:10 PM.
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  20. #160
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Cleopatra was white and I can prove it

    The rest of the Macedonians did do it. Philip and many others took wives from the Illyrians and Thracians. As is mentioned in the histories the originally Makedones core group expanded across Lower Macedonia and Upper Macedonia and conquered and integrated many of the tribes in that area.

    In America "White", "European" and "Caucasoid" are used interchangeably. Generally Americans consider "White" to be an ethnic group because in only a few generations Italian-Americans, Anglo-Americans, German-Americans etc integrate into the broader English speaking culture of the United States.

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