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Thread: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

  1. #261

    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Because in the desision the "Threat against Greece" has not been under consideration.
    Do you read anything about this in the text? If yes point it to us because i might missed it.
    Unless you have Superman's eyes and see texts below texts that we commoners can not locate.
    CAN YOU ATLEAST admit that the US Senate halted the delivery of F-35s or that is a lie too?
    If you admit it WRITE IT clearly "Yes I admit it"... It would make you a trustworthy debater never the less.
    Sigh... Clearly, there is no concern for coherence... You first linked to a House member, Brad Sherman, making general anti-Turkey statements which I asked about how much Greek lobbying money was involved. Then you linked to an amendment to the defense bill that was made by senators Jeanne Shaheen and Thom Tillis. Somehow, you're arguing that what I said about Sherman's statements is incorrect because of what two senators did. I value coherence, and I see none in your position.
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  2. #262
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Sigh... Clearly, there is no concern for coherence... You first linked to a House member, Brad Sherman, making general anti-Turkey statements which I asked about how much Greek lobbying money was involved. Then you linked to an amendment to the defense bill that was made by senators Jeanne Shaheen and Thom Tillis. Somehow, you're arguing that what I said about Sherman's statements is incorrect because of what two senators did. I value coherence, and I see none in your position.
    I see...you do not have the COURAGE to admit..."Yes US Senate delay the F-35 delivery to Turkey"...You can not even admit the simpliest TRUTH...IS it true what the article writes according to you? Please answer wiith a YES or a NO ...
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  3. #263

    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I see...you do not have the COURAGE to admit..."Yes US Senate delay the F-35 delivery to Turkey"...You can not even admit the simpliest TRUTH...IS it true what the article writes according to you? Please answer wiith a YES or a NO ...
    Please tell me when did the issue ever become whether USA will really not give the new jets to Turkey or not? Why are you asking me a question that's not even up for debate?
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  4. #264
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Please tell me when did the issue ever become whether USA will really not give the new jets to Turkey or not? Why are you asking me a question that's not even up for debate?
    Because USA sees Turkey as a threat in NATO technology security...Also USA sees Turkey as a THREAT to USA's interests in the area.
    Is the "threat within Nato" the debate here? What more evidences do you need to find the COURAGE to admit it?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #265

    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Because USA sees Turkey as a threat in NATO technology security...Also USA sees Turkey as a THREAT to USA's interests in the area.
    Is the "threat within Nato" the debate here? What more evidences do you need to find the COURAGE to admit it?
    So, clearly your position does not come from a respect of conversational linearity. You just wanna rant on about Turkey. Carry on.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    Middle Kingdom: Total War (Poll)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...gdom-Total-War

    Cities: Skylines
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ities-Skylines

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  6. #266
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    So, clearly your position does not come from a respect of conversational linearity. You just wanna rant on about Turkey. Carry on.
    But this Senate's desision makes clear which country is "The Threat within NATO". Did I undestand wrong?
    Why avoid to answer a simple question?
    Does USA DENY -for now- Turkey's access to F-35 or not?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  7. #267

    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    This is a personal issue between two countries and has nothing to do with NATO. Our ambitions in Syria clash. Both have their own "rightful concerns". Not sure how US's concerns can be considered serious though, they just meddle from afar while we are trying to keep our yard safe.

    Turkey was preparing to make the largest order after US itself. Other than Israel none of our neighbours are anywhere close to make a huge leap in their air power. So to be honest I would be glad if the order was cancelled and the budget was transferred to TF-X project instead. Our existing inventory can get some extra modernizations as well. They would lose a possible sell of 100+ aircrafts while we would practically lose nothing.

  8. #268
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Turkey was preparing to make the largest order after US itself. Other than Israel none of our neighbours are anywhere close to make a huge leap in their air power. So to be honest I would be glad if the order was cancelled and the budget was transferred to TF-X project instead. Our existing inventory can get some extra modernizations as well. They would lose a possible sell of 100+ aircrafts while we would practically lose nothing.
    Thas is not that simple as i sounds. See that Russia develops Su-57 for more than a decade without any practical result. Now the Russians announced that the next step forward Su-57 or the plane that will come out of it will be in 2023.
    So if Russia with all that "know how" needs 20 or more years to develop its own 5th gen Fighters while USA, France+Germany start to develope 6th generation ones ,imagine the costs , the efforts and the time Turkey will need to develop its 5th gen Fighter.
    I recall that before the deal with UK with TF-X development , Turkey aproached Sweeden that started to develop the plane that will replace Gripen NG. But that deal stoped suddenly.
    Now after Sweeden's refusal to deal with Turkey came the statement of the UK Air Force Marshal that asked NATO an alternative of the F-35 engines repair partner (Turkey has this part) IF Turkey willl no longer be trastfull.
    See? TF-X is a good plan (every serius country plans its security future) but it wont be as easy as it sounds espesialy that Turkish curency lost 15% of its value in the last 2 months!!
    No western country will accept a deal like the one Turkey did with Venazuella (exchange trade of Turkish products for oil) but it will require:
    1ST : Dollars, Euros or Gold
    2nd: The commitment that the technology that will produse wont fall to the enemy's hands! That trust is what Turkey lacks today.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  9. #269

    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    I dont think TF-X is going to be a fifth generation. That would be an unrealistic goal. They would of course say its going to be "next generation" but I expect something around the levels of modernized f-16s with more focus on air superiority. Its the first experience no need to expect wonders. I still give it a decade at least, if everything goes right. Whats more important right now is the air defence. I expect more s-400 batteries will follow after the initial purchase and this will possibly quicken the local development. Again if everything goes right. Economy is kinda uncertain now. US is doing its best without an official embargo.

  10. #270
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Threat Within NATO

    No...UK agreed to participate because it needs a 5th generation plane to be side by side with its F-35s. It would be a waste of time and money just to create another "GripenNG" for example because it will be uspolute after 2025.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  11. #271

    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    And it seems that the US is starting to wake up to what Turkey is, that is, a threat:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1IP3Q8

    U.S. Senate defense bill would bar Turkey from buying F-35 jets
    Let's see if it happens. In any event, it doesn't seem likely that Turkey will be receiving the first F35 as soon as Hyrriet was claiming (at around the day of election).

  12. #272
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    It seams Erdogan's Turkey consider un-trustworthy even from Russia.
    Only a day before Turkey announce the possibility to buy Su-57 instead of F-35. But Russians have other opinion about expossing their "sensitive" technology.
    Link: https://www.ptisidiastima.com/rosobo...-is-an-option/
    The only possibility is a "downgraded" version of Mig-35 like those sold in Egypt! Egupt bought a downgraded Mig-35 simply because it could no longer wait for the new AESA radar to be developed.
    So...Turkey considers as a threat withing NATO because it could expose sensitive technology to Russia and Russia does not trust its best technology to Turkey feared that this technology may be exposed to NATO.
    Very good example of foreign policy!! No one trusts Turkey any more. And 5 years ago Turkey was the MOST trusted ally of USA!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  13. #273

    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    I have told this a thousands times. Turkey did not become "untrustworthy". Turkey simply stopped acting like a vassal to US. This is between US and Turkey and has nothing to do with NATO.

    Thing about SU-57 was not an official announcement. It was a speculation and most likely just a show off to US.

  14. #274
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I have told this a thousands times. Turkey did not become "untrustworthy". Turkey simply stopped acting like a vassal to US. This is between US and Turkey and has nothing to do with NATO.

    Thing about SU-57 was not an official announcement. It was a speculation and most likely just a show off to US.
    Even UK that is helping Turkey to TF-X development does not "trust" Turkey to maintain its own F-35's engines.
    Article: Here.
    Do you incist that every one trusts Erdogan's Turkey?
    EDIT: In the article nottice this part:
    But he added: "F-35 partners, all of them, should be concerned with Turkey and be ready to respond quickly to any political, social, or 'military' crisis."
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; May 28, 2018 at 08:31 AM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  15. #275

    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    Are you aware of that dear Mr. Kerevan in that article represents the third party in UK parliament with a total vote of %4.7? "Scottish National Party" looks like it definietly represents the will of UK government.

    The second guy you quoted is concerned about a possible cessation of maintainance, he merely concerned that having their jets maintained aboard is not a good decision. This has nothing to do with Erdo.


    Turkey didnt do anything to be labelled as "untrustworthy". Non-loyal? May be. Just like everyone else. Is US supposed to be "trustworthy" after openly supporting an organization that that has direct ties to PKK?
    Last edited by Tureuki; May 28, 2018 at 10:11 AM.

  16. #276

    Default Re: Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

    It seems Erdogan's taking pages straight from Nasser's playbook. He presents himself as having a strong position, when the reality is his actions have severely weakened Turkey's original strong position in 2013 and its duplicitous actions have severely damaged the efforts of other allied actors in the conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeignPolicy.com
    The decline of the Islamic State, nearly four years after its emergence, was the result of an aggressive military campaign to combat the group spearheaded primarily by the United States. That has not stopped Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs Mevlut Cavusoglu from writing an article for Foreign Policy to take credit for the group’s demise, insisting that Turkey’s actions in northern Syria have helped lay the groundwork for a sustainable peace.

    What he neglected to mention is that it was Turkey’s actions, or perhaps the lack thereof, that helped fuel the rise of the Islamic State in the first place. The two most commonly cited factors leading to the growth of the Islamic State are the Syrian civil war and the government of former Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and its persecution of Sunni Arabs in Iraq. But another significant part of this story is the negligence exhibited by the Turkish state.


    Beginning in late 2013 and early 2014, Turkish border cities became the chief logistical hubs for foreign fighters seeking to enter Syria and Iraq to join the Islamic State and other rebel groups. By all accounts, foreign fighters from around the globe first traveled to Turkey and then on to Iraq and Syria, forming the backbone and striking power of the Islamic State. In 2013 alone, some 30,000 militants traversed Turkish soil, establishing the so-called jihadi highway, as the country became a conduit for fighters seeking to join the Islamic State. By August 2015, Turkey did eventually tighten up its borders and agree to engage in strike missions as part of Operation Inherent Resolve, but by then, the lion’s share of foreign fighters had already arrived in Iraq and Syria.


    There are many more examples of Turkey’s passive support to Islamic State fighters, including wounded Islamic State militants treated for free at hospitals across southeastern Turkey. Among those receiving care was one of the top deputies of Islamic State chieftain Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Ahmet el-H, who was treated in a private hospital in Sanliurfa in August 2014.


    There were also widespread reports of Turkish officials, including Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s son-in-law, were involved in the purchase of Islamic State oil through front companies — actions that undoubtedly helped fill the insurgents’ coffers and directly contribute to the group’s longevity. Nevertheless, contraband Islamic State oil was consistently sold at points along the Turkish border throughout 2014 and into 2015.Fast forward to early 2018, and there are reports that Erdogan has signaled consent for Turkish forces to enlist the help of former Islamic State fighters in Ankara’s ongoing battle against the Kurds. And according to Conflict Armament Research, an organization partly funded by the European Union that identifies and tracks conventional weapons and ammunition in contemporary armed conflicts, Turkey “is the most important choke point” for components used in the manufacture of improvised explosive devices by the Islamic State.


    Despite Turkey’s claim of being responsible for the demise of the Islamic State, the evidence clearly suggests otherwise. But what about Cavusoglu’s assertion that Turkey’s intervention in Syria through Operation Olive Branch, a Turkish military offensive in northern Syria aimed at combating Kurdish militants, is merely aimed at correcting America’s flaws and stabilizing Syria to the point where post-conflict reconstruction can begin in earnest?


    The United States works with the Kurds in Syria because they are the most effective fighting force on the ground, and really the only nonstate actor willing to and capable of fighting the Islamic State. In contrast, the Turkish government has been duplicitous in its objectives, nominally supporting the anti-Islamic State coalition while simultaneously engaging in actions that undermine the same coalition.


    Cavusoglu maintains that “the territorial integrity of states” is a prerequisite for peace even as Turkey intervenes in Syria, together with other powerful nation-states, including Iran, Russia, and the United States. Like every nation, Turkey has the right to defend its own borders. But Olive Branch was a preemptive strike against the Syrian Kurds for Turkey’s own purposes — it is no secret that Ankara has long harbored ill will against Syrian Democratic Union Party (PYD), Kurds based on their links to the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), a banned Turkish terrorist group, and their admiration for jailed PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan.


    The Olive Branch operation is not only about protecting Turkey from terrorism. There’s good reason to think it’s also an offensive campaign designed to increase Turkey’s leverage in future political negotiations in Syria, where it is working with Iran and Russia to minimize American involvement. Turkey continues to seize control of Syrian territory, administering it and installing its own governing structures.


    Flanked by Iranian President Hassan Rouhani and Russian President Vladimir Putin, Erdogan appeared at a recent press conference to suggest that Turkey, Iran, and Russia are working toward stabilizing Syria, even as Tehran and Moscow enable Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, who just last week once again used chemical weapons on his own people in Douma.


    Cavusoglu says the Middle East must be “kept safe from the threat of sectarianism, spheres of influence, resurgent imperialisms” and other destabilizing factors. Ironically, it is exactly Turkey’s continued incursions into Syria and Erdogan’s attempt to portray himself as the savior of all Sunnis, which is reinforcing ethnic divisions by pitting Sunni Arabs against PYD Kurds.

    While Turkey may seek to bring an end to the Syrian civil war to resolve a long-simmering conflict on its border, it is also evidently concerned with denying operating space to the PYD, seeking to ensure that Kurdish dreams of autonomy within Syria are dashed. But Erdogan’s militancy comes with a price. Already, there is evidence that Turkey has squandered its soft power in the region, as diplomacy and cultural initiatives have been supplanted by military force and belligerence directed at its neighbors.

    But if Turkey’s goal is truly to finish off the Islamic State, as Cavusoglu suggests, then targeting the People’s Protection Units (YPG) is having exactly the opposite effect. With the YPG focused on defending itself from Turkish advances, it is distracted from the ongoing battle to eradicate the last remaining pockets of Islamic State militants from Syria.


    For its part, the United States has tried to play both sides of the conflict, signaling support to NATO ally Turkey while continuing to train and equip the YPG in Syria. This has not gone unnoticed in Ankara, where Erdogan recently criticized U.S. President Donald Trump for sending mixed messages on the future American role in Syria following Trump’s comments on a possible withdrawal of U.S. troops from the country in the near future.


    Washington would be wise to reconsider a hasty withdrawal from Syria, since any premature departure of American troops would almost certainly ensure that the United States has reduced leverage in future negotiations over the end of the conflict in Syria. And it would likely guarantee that the Islamic State would rise again, despite recent claims by Cavusoglu and Turkey that the Islamic State has “largely been militarily defeated.”
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; May 30, 2018 at 10:24 PM.
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