Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

[ioannis76]

Here's the problem, though. What if Turkey is more attracted to Russia than to NATO, due to interests? For example, Russia doesn't like Cyprus using its oil revenues (subcontracting them to western companies, of course), because it is an oil/natural gas producing country itself, therefore it may support Turkey against Cyprus in that issue. The US, on the other hand, via Exxon, has interests in the area. Turkey cannot stop the US drilling in Cyprus by itself, but with Russian help, it might be able to. What will the US do when oil revenues are at stake? Abandon Exxon's interests to Turkey, or stand up to Turkey?

[Ziltoid]

Erdogan's Vision: Uniting an 'Army of Islam' to Destroy Israel in 10 Days

So how legit is this?

Also this would become then relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

The Samson Option (Hebrew: ברירת שמשון) is the name that some military analysts and authors have given to Israel's deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against a country whose military has destroyed much of Israel.

mmmmmm radioactive kebab *drools* [/homer simpson]

[PointOfViewGun]

Erdogan's Vision: Uniting an 'Army of Islam' to Destroy Israel in 10 Days
So how legit is this?
Also this would become then relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
mmmmmm radioactive kebab *drools* [/homer simpson]

The source is MEMRI so I would doubt what they say even if they tell me the clock. I checked the original article for something simple, whether it mentioned ten days or not. Nope. No mention of ten days. The article seems to talk about heavy lobbying in Europe and marginalizing Israel. The name of the army they propose is not Army of Islam but Joint Peace Army, and Jerusalem Protection Force, and makes no mention of destroying Israel. Islam is only mentioned within the context of Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC).

I noticed there is a second article about the Army of Islam bit. Again, makes no mention of 10 days. It's a hypothetical article comparing military sizes of OIC nation's armies and Israel. Might come across as dick measurement but there is no calls to create an army to destroy Israel. None of the comparisons are tied to Erdoğan as well.

It's your typical black propaganda piece to cloud half-truths as if they're damning facts sponsored by the state of Israel.

[AnthoniusII]

Erdogan looks and acts more and more like Hitler and Mousolini before the WW2 start.
Europe looks more and more like the feared Chamberlain and allow Turkey to act like Hitler did in 1938!
Then we had Chechslovakia as a "peace gift" to Hitler now we have Northern Syria a "peace gift"to Erdigan.
See the simularities.
Both Hitler and Erdogan like to make long nationalistic speaches infront of thousands of people.
Both had a ruined economy that they both transformed it to militaristic inorder to be able to expand and find new zones of influence.
Both created border incidents to provoke others to attack (Hitler made then in France in 1939 and Polland a year ago) , Erdogna uses Greece and Cyprus as his field of provocation.
For both fake news and propaganda were crusial.
Hitler pointed out the humiliation of the Allies to Germany durring the end of WW1 and Erdogan creates fake news that Greece -with the suport of UK,USA and Israel- is prepering to invade Turkey as the most recent post, Yeni Safak newspaper made!!!!!
Both Hitler and Erdogan made a pack of allies with common enemies.
Hitler had mousolini , Erdogan has Albanian PM!
Unforthunatly history repeats its self. From time to time people with psycological issues that have the gift to manipulate their people minds lead humanity in blood baths!

Concusion: Both EU and NATO are not strong enough to force Turkey to stop. Espesialy EU. Germany had 2500 Leo-2 and today has only 250!
That is why by allowing Turkey to act as wish they hope to gain some time. But history proved many time that "time" to unprepered forces is never enough.

[Chivalry]

Except that Turkey is getting shelled/bombarbed/cities exploded sincea very long time; longer than reign of Erdoğan. We have suffered enough of terrorism. Now is the time to stop it once and for all.

[PointOfViewGun]

Erdogan looks and acts more and more like Hitler and Mousolini before the WW2 start.
Europe looks more and more like the feared Chamberlain and allow Turkey to act like Hitler did in 1938!
Then we had Chechslovakia as a "peace gift" to Hitler now we have Northern Syria a "peace gift"to Erdigan.
See the simularities.
Both Hitler and Erdogan like to make long nationalistic speaches infront of thousands of people.
Both had a ruined economy that they both transformed it to militaristic inorder to be able to expand and find new zones of influence.
Both created border incidents to provoke others to attack (Hitler made then in France in 1939 and Polland a year ago) , Erdogna uses Greece and Cyprus as his field of provocation.
For both fake news and propaganda were crusial.
Hitler pointed out the humiliation of the Allies to Germany durring the end of WW1 and Erdogan creates fake news that Greece -with the suport of UK,USA and Israel- is prepering to invade Turkey as the most recent post, Yeni Safak newspaper made!!!!!
Both Hitler and Erdogan made a pack of allies with common enemies.
Hitler had mousolini , Erdogan has Albanian PM!
Unforthunatly history repeats its self. From time to time people with psycological issues that have the gift to manipulate their people minds lead humanity in blood baths!

Concusion: Both EU and NATO are not strong enough to force Turkey to stop. Espesialy EU. Germany had 2500 Leo-2 and today has only 250!
That is why by allowing Turkey to act as wish they hope to gain some time. But history proved many time that "time" to unprepered forces is never enough.

I'm baffled on how you managed to compare Albania to Italy...

By the way, that's not Yeni Şafak newspaper in the link, it's Yeni Akit. The article also makes no mention of Greece preparing to invade Turkey.

[ioannis76]

And another Turkish provocation against NATO, this time, in the report of the Turkish coast guard for the year 2016, Turkey seems to "cut the Aegean in half", effectively claiming Greek islands as its own. The report can be downloaded in the following link:
http://www.sahilguvenlik.gov.tr/2016...YET_RAPORU.pdf

And the map is this:



Page 7, and again on Page 13, where it clearly shows Greek islands as Turkish.

[PointOfViewGun]

And another Turkish provocation against NATO, this time, in the report of the Turkish coast guard for the year 2016, Turkey seems to "cut the Aegean in half", effectively claiming Greek islands as its own. The report can be downloaded in the following link:
http://www.sahilguvenlik.gov.tr/2016...YET_RAPORU.pdf

And the map is this:



Page 7, and again on Page 13, where it clearly shows Greek islands as Turkish.

The map makes no reference to sovereignty. The blue area is labeled as search and rescue area...

[Aexodus]

I don't see how an area 100s of miles off the Turkish coast in the middle of the Aegean can be a part of their 'search and rescue area'. If that were case, why doesn't the area cross over into the waters of Bulgaria, Georgia, Syria and Southern Cyprus. They seem to respect those territorial waters fine.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't see how an area 100s of miles off the Turkish coast in the middle of the Aegean can be a part of their 'search and rescue area'. If that were case, why doesn't the area cross over into the waters of Bulgaria, Georgia, Syria and Southern Cyprus. They seem to respect those territorial waters fine.

Sigh... It already does do the same in the Black Sea, or, do you suppose the Black Sea coastline is a straight line... Both Greece and Cyprus has similar SAR maps that don't coincide with sea borders. This is like FIR, it's not necessarily dependent on sea borders.

[kyrtgr]

From the horses mouth
https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-greek-turkish-relations/relevant-documents/search-and-rescue.html
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/search-and-rescue-regions-in-the-aegean.en.mfa
So basicaly what Turkey says is "I want search and rescue rights in your regional waters" and Greece replied "err... No".
Then Turkey says "I tried to negotiate SAR areas but they didn't want to give what I want so I unilaterally declare the SAR area that I feel like I want to have".

And for the record, this is the Athens FIR area that coinsist with what Greece declared as SAR area.
https://gis.icao.int/icaoviewernew/#/27.2773/36.4941/6

[PointOfViewGun]

From the horses mouth
https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-greek-turkish-relations/relevant-documents/search-and-rescue.html
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/search-and-rescue-regions-in-the-aegean.en.mfa
So basicaly what Turkey says is "I want search and rescue rights in your regional waters" and Greece replied "err... No".
Then Turkey says "I tried to negotiate SAR areas but they didn't want to give what I want so I unilaterally declare the SAR area that I feel like I want to have".

And for the record, this is the Athens FIR area that coinsist with what Greece declared as SAR area.
https://gis.icao.int/icaoviewernew/#/27.2773/36.4941/6

That map you give clearly shows how in both cases of Greece and Cyprus lines are not drawn according to sovereign borders. In various parts, the FIR (and SAR as you say) borders go into Turkish territorial waters.

The other mouth as well:

5. The fifth category is related to Search and Rescue (SAR) operations/activities

Search and Rescue services concerning maritime areas are regulated by the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue of 1979 (Hamburg Convention).

According to the Hamburg Convention, in case a search and rescue region cannot be established by agreement among Parties concerned, those Parties shall use their best endeavors to reach an agreement upon appropriate arrangements under which the equivalent overall co-ordination of search and rescue services is provided in the area. Such coordination has not been established in the Aegean despite Turkey’s repeated calls to this end.

Furthermore, stipulating that search and rescue regions should, in so far as practicable, be coincident with maritime search and rescue regions with respect to those over the high seas, Annex 12 of the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation makes a clear distinction between maritime and air search and rescue regions, and underlines the prevalence of the maritime dimension with regard to search and rescue operations conducted on high seas. Besides, search and rescue operations either they pertain to aircraft or vessels in distress are conducted at sea.

Against this background, Turkey has declared its search and rescue region and registered it in the relevant IMO documents, namely the IMO Global SAR Plan, and it continues to effectively conduct SAR activities/operations in the region defined therein with a view to saving human life.

Since the Turkish and Greek Search and Rescue Regions (SRR) partially overlap, all SAR efforts/activities to be conducted in these overlapping areas must be duly coordinated as appropriate, in accordance with the 1979 Hamburg Convention, Art. 2.1.5.

[kyrtgr]

That map you give clearly shows how in both cases of Greece and Cyprus lines are not drawn according to sovereign borders. In various parts, the FIR (and SAR as you say) borders go into Turkish territorial waters.

The free ICAO map is low res (to get a high res you have to buy it). Enable the NAVIG basemap from the button on the top right to get a more accurate one.

[PointOfViewGun]

The free ICAO map is low res (to get a high res you have to buy it). Enable the NAVIG basemap from the button on the top right to get a more accurate one.

No, its not. It's a vectoral map. Resolution is irrelevant. You can zoom as much as you want or zoom out as much as you want and you wouldn't be changing the information. A good way to illustrate what I was talking about earlier you can check the line between Ireland and Northern Ireland, or the line between Italy, Tunish and Malta.

[kyrtgr]

No, its not. It's a vectoral map. Resolution is irrelevant. You can zoom as much as you want or zoom out as much as you want and you wouldn't be changing the information. A good way to illustrate what I was talking about earlier you can check the line between Ireland and Northern Ireland, or the line between Italy, Tunish and Malta.

Even vector drawings can be low res. You can show a circle with just 8 points (which will be an octagon) or with 800 points for high res.
As I said, enable the "Navig charts" basemap.

Since you mention Ireland and N. Ireland, the Irish SAR area coinsists with their FIR area.
http://www.dttas.ie/maritime/ircg/searchrescue
I would guess that there is an agreement between Ireland and N. Ireland, as it would be absurb for one countys forces to go into anothers land/water without permission, but I don't care enough to look into it futher.
The same must be true for Italy/Malta/Tunis. People there must be reasonable enough to do that.

[PointOfViewGun]

Even vector drawings can be low res. You can show a circle with just 8 points (which will be an octagon) or with 800 points for high res.
As I said, enable the "Navig charts" basemap.

Since you mention Ireland and N. Ireland, the Irish SAR area coinsists with their FIR area.
http://www.dttas.ie/maritime/ircg/searchrescue
I would guess that there is an agreement between Ireland and N. Ireland, as it would be absurb for one countys forces to go into anothers land/water without permission, but I don't care enough to look into it futher.
The same must be true for Italy/Malta/Tunis. People there must be reasonable enough to do that.

I take it you don't know what a vector graphic is. They're not made out of dots, but mathematical equations. No matter what resolution you use, you will always see a circle. Enabling Navig charts doesn't change anything. It doesn't even change the resolution. Sigh... No resolution argument can explain why the Cypriot FIR comes as close as 2 nm at the southern tip of Antalya.

[Vladyvid]

The Greeks and Turks should finally unite as a single nation. They share too much to be constantly acting like they don't like eachother. Make one big country and enjoy it! Unite, peace and love, gyros and kebab, i like both.

[kyrtgr]

I take it you don't know what a vector graphic is. They're not made out of dots, but mathematical equations. No matter what resolution you use, you will always see a circle. Enabling Navig charts doesn't change anything. It doesn't even change the resolution. Sigh... No resolution argument can explain why the Cypriot FIR comes as close as 2 nm at the southern tip of Antalya.

You don't know what I know and what I don't. And about vector graphics I know enough. I didn't mention "dots" but "points". Vectors connect points as they have a starting and an ending point by definition. You can describe a curve with vectors either by using chords of a given angle (of the radii connecting the center with it's endpoints) or by using a minimum vector length. The smaller the angle or the minimum vector length, the higher the res (or the accuracy if you prefer) of the drawing.
I can't comment on the Nicosia FIR proximity from Antalya, as I don't know about it, but the limits came out of ICAO air navigation regional meeting and it is what it is.

[ioannis76]

I don't see how an area 100s of miles off the Turkish coast in the middle of the Aegean can be a part of their 'search and rescue area'. If that were case, why doesn't the area cross over into the waters of Bulgaria, Georgia, Syria and Southern Cyprus. They seem to respect those territorial waters fine.

Not just off the Turkish coast. Here is a map of Greece:

Here is again what the Turkish coast guard shows:

Notice the Greek islands in the eastern part of the Aegean, off the Minor asian coast Lesvos, Chios Samos, Rhodes, etc. These are Greek islands. Turkey practically claims the SAR around them, and in the map it practically shows the islands as Turkish. Turkish wishful thinking much?
Doesn't THAT count as a provocation against NATO, given that Greece is a NATO member?

[PointOfViewGun]

You don't know what I know and what I don't. And about vector graphics I know enough. I didn't mention "dots" but "points". Vectors connect points as they have a starting and an ending point by definition. You can describe a curve with vectors either by using chords of a given angle (of the radii connecting the center with it's endpoints) or by using a minimum vector length. The smaller the angle or the minimum vector length, the higher the res (or the accuracy if you prefer) of the drawing.
I can't comment on the Nicosia FIR proximity from Antalya, as I don't know about it, but the limits came out of ICAO air navigation regional meeting and it is what it is.

Sigh... A vector drawing would not really represent a circle by points. You could at least admit that it was a bad example instead of dragging your feet like this... Resolution is no valid argument here for the reasons I already explained that you ignored...

Not just off the Turkish coast. Here is a map of Greece:
Here is again what the Turkish coast guard shows:
Notice the Greek islands in the eastern part of the Aegean, off the Minor asian coast Lesvos, Chios Samos, Rhodes, etc. These are Greek islands. Turkey practically claims the SAR around them, and in the map it practically shows the islands as Turkish. Turkish wishful thinking much?
Doesn't THAT count as a provocation against NATO, given that Greece is a NATO member?

Nope. The map doesn't show them as Turkish islands. You're just making up to keep an already failed claim alive.