member 3519
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
No, I say you should not commit yourself to doctrines and not to give up your personal freedom and responsibility to think critically in exchange for a sense of belonging or vicarious pride in some group identity. Perhaps that's arguing against human nature, but isn't civilisation at least in part about curbing our certain animal instincts? And this is one of those instincts that needs to be contained.Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer
Last edited by Muizer; March 10, 2018 at 03:24 PM.
"Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -
Patricius
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
How what works? Lustration?
People are proud of what they are. Curbing healthy instincts isn't something that contributes to preserving civilization, not to mention that, most of "progressive" policies are essentially condoning barbarism.
We just have to come to terms with the fact that we will have to sacrifice our globalist elites to preserve Western civilization, as we know it being hub of more or less free countries with high living standards.
Last edited by Heathen Hammer; March 10, 2018 at 04:15 PM.
TW Modder 2005-2016
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
This. As often, dogukan nails it.
..."a new (but in reality old) discourse for themselves to revive."... driven by people who are beneath contempt and the stupid applaud.
Last edited by DaVinci; March 11, 2018 at 08:37 AM.
#Anthropocene #not just Global Warming but Global Disaster, NASA #Deforestation #Plastic Emission #The Blob #Uninhabitable Earth #Savest Place On Earth #AMOC #ICAN #MIT study "Falsehoods Win" #Engineers of Chaos
#"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
#"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
Any chance for this exam? Very low, the established Anthropocentrism destroys the basis of existence.
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#End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
A self-ascribed communist labeling everyone else a fascist. Any more profound words of wisdom?
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Someone having their taxes redistributed into a collective pot, to be redistributed to a cause (Eastern Europe) that will never directly benefit them, but only the 'collective' European state that Brussels is trying so hard to achieve, is a socialist ideal. Giving the taxpayer little to no say on this, and punishing those that do (Brexit) is anything but liberal. Italy clearly feels the same way as Britain. And of course Italians are opposed to uncontrolled immigration from Asia and Africa.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/In 2016 the UK government paid £13.1 billion to the EU budget, and EUspending on the UK was forecast to be £4.5 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at about £8.6 billion.
Last edited by Aexodus; March 11, 2018 at 10:39 AM.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
How about Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia, Singapure, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan, Tawain...
All those non-EU countries sure seem better than EU in terms of economy and innovation.
Add to the list the soon-to-be UK, and aspirant Italy. Prospective Poland too.
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
the Imperishable
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Italy should strive towards patriotism rather than nationalism. In all of European history any country which has fully embraced nationalism has ceased to exist within 20 years time, or saw itself greatly diminished.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
I agree with the overall sentiment, but this statement does ignore the Irish Republic, for one.
Praeses
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Except I did not call everyone a fascist. I said fascist movements are trying to tap into the reactions to control the discourse.
No it isn't.
Most of those investments are for market integration to make functioning economies. They aren't for social policies.
They are essentially for neo-liberal developmentalism.
It is a deal that was made a while ago, countries agreed to a customs union in return for such developmental fiscal transfers. No one forced anybody. It is a necessity for such an unequal system to function economically.
It was a process led by elected states and its benefits had been immense.
As in everything, it is a process full of trade-offs and there are winners and losers of it. Reversing it also means winners and losers. Pretty much like everything else in politics. It doesn't have anything to do with socialism.
They weren't given "little say". Their parents and grandparents voted into EU. There were decades of bargains and trade-offs and opt outs to make agreements.Giving the taxpayer little to no say on this, and punishing those that do (Brexit) is anything but liberal. Italy clearly feels the same way as Britain. And of course Italians are opposed to uncontrolled immigration from Asia and Africa.
If people wants to LEAVE the EU, sure, they should. But calling it a socialist conspiracy to destroy the wolrd etc is simply lies. That is what I am adressing here. It is the intellectual dishonesty and blatant ignorance. I feel like I read more on EU than the rampart anti-EU mob here that live within the system sometimes. I am a non-EU person.
People are free to create a new system or destroy the current one. But lying, smearing etc should not be tolerated.
3 of them city states dependent on finance.
One of them a dictatorship.
And yeah sure, you can count Canada and Norway. I am not sure Heathen Hammer sees those countries as examples of what he wants. I am not saying EU is the only best place.
We are talking about corruption and "oligarchs" heathen hammer claims rules EU.
The idea that when EU is taken down all institutions will be non-corrupt and democratic sounds ridiculous to me. But I am ready with my popcorn
Last edited by dogukan; March 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
Comes Domesticorum
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
In other words, another Croatia/Scotland/Catalonia trap of "I don't pay benefit for others" again.
Well which one is dictatorship?
Last edited by hellheaven1987; March 11, 2018 at 12:23 PM.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Tell me a single country in the world not dependent on finance. Bonus: one not dependent on accounting too. And has hell-heaven said, which one is a dictatorship?
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
Praeses
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Dependent on finance as in thats the dominant economic force. HK, Singapore, Macau are not industrial hubs. Their economies function because they specifically tap into financial services of their regions which are huge trading regions.
I meant Singapore as a dictatorship but I went too far.
What I am trying to say is that governance of city-states cannot be compared to large-nation states. They are a lot more efficient and easier to specialize in very few unique activities. If you specialize in one activity in a clarge country, you'll have a lot of losers.
In Hong Kong, you are not torn between what macro-policies to choose, the winners and losers of an action are pretty clear. In Thailand, you could increase interest rates and the whole country can divide.
Also, you are taking this out the point I made.
Heathen Hammer claims that EU is the source of corruption and if it is dismantled, it will not be that way. And there is no proof or indicator for that.
And vast majority of the world outside the EU has a much worse record.
So the claim is baseless.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Europe before the EU didn't have as many unelected, highly paid positions within the ruling government, so comparing Europe with the rest of the world is a false equivalence. The EU's source of corruption lies in its unaccountability. Heck, in a few years, Europe will become the rest of the world the way things are going, which is much more undeveloped and less democratic, of course there is more corruption.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
I assume you mean that the European micro-states of Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco and the Vatican City are heavily dependent on financial services for their econonies as for the dictatorship part, I assume you mean that the Vatican City State is essentially a theocratic elective absolute monarchy ruled by the Pope or that the Principality of Liechtenstein is sort of becoming an absolute monarchy with the power of its prince, already one of powerful monarchs in Europe ( Politically speaking in his own country) increasing.
Edit:Never mind he was referring to Singapore, Macau and Hong Kong as the 3 city states and Singapore as a dictatorship.
Last edited by RandomPerson2000; March 11, 2018 at 01:17 PM.
Comes Domesticorum
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Well it is not a dictatorship; in fact the ruling party has been getting only 60% votes for past two decades.
the Imperishable
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
The Irish republic was created by patriotism, not blind nationalism. You don't see the Irish plotting to expand into Britain and subjugate the people living there because the Celts held it 2000 years ago (or maybe you do and Paddy's Day is but the avant-garde to world domination). Ireland is quite happily cooperating with its neighbors.
Patriotism means a desire to see your country improve by working together with others. Nationalism means a desire to see it improve at the expense of others.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
So the IRA campaign to expand the Republic into the north doesn't count then? There's a wealth of opinions on who's in the right there that I'd rather not get into, but Irish nationalists have no intention of leaving other sovereign states alone.
the Imperishable
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
Because they're nationalists. Every country has them. The trick is to not let them take control.
Last edited by Sir Adrian; March 11, 2018 at 03:02 PM.
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
I think it's fair to say they took control in 1916, but we're getting off-topic here, and it's not a point worth arguing.
Italy should have the ability to deport non-citizens it doesn't wish to be in the country, and decide who can enter in the future. This is what Salvini offers. Yes, fascist nationalism has often failed in the past, but tempered nationalism can be a force of good for the Italian people and their interests.
Primicerius
Re: Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1GO14F
Read more at the link.The caretaker leader of Italy’s ruling Democratic Party (PD) said on Monday the party should go into opposition after its bruising election defeat and resist calls to participate in the next government as a junior partner.
A March 4 election ended in stalemate, with an alliance of conservative parties falling 49 seats short of a majority in the lower house of parliament. The largest single party, the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement, was 95 seats adrift. Either group could govern if they won the backing of the centre-left bloc, dominated by the PD, which took 112 seats in the 630-seat lower house. The PD could also provide both camps with a majority in the upper house Senate.
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Maurizio Martina, who has taken over as acting PD chief following the resignation of former leader Matteo Renzi, told a party meeting that 5-Star and the far-right League should try to form a government even though they were pre-election adversaries.
“The people voted for you to govern, now do it,” Martina said in reference to 5-Star leader Luigi Di Maio and Matteo Salvini, head of the League which was the leading party in the rightwing coalition.
“Dear Di Maio and Salvini, take on your responsibility,” he told the party, meeting to lick its wounds after its worst-ever election performance and try to chart a path forwards.
So I might be wrong. Maybe the election did settle something if a new governing coalition can be formed that is stable.
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