Out with the old: Italy's election is another blow to the EU liberal establishment

[antaeus]

I think it's fair to say they took control in 1916, but we're getting off-topic here, and it's not a point worth arguing.

Italy should have the ability to deport non-citizens it doesn't wish to be in the country, and decide who can enter in the future. This is what Salvini offers. Yes, fascist nationalism has often failed in the past, but tempered nationalism can be a force of good for the Italian people and their interests.

Two things... firstly, as a matter of principle, in your first sentence you made a point then said it wasn't worth debating. If it wasn't worth debating you shouldn't have attached any argument to the statement.

Secondly,

Italy kind of needs as many non citizens as possible to become citizens. That is unless you can convince Italians to have more children. It's the easiest comeback to anti immigrant sentiment in Europe. Don't like foreigners... Rather than have a cry about it, have more babies.

It's the irony of nationalism in Europe today... Immigration is needed to balance low birth rates and an ageing population.

What the hell is "tempered nationalism" anyway?

Sounds like what every country already has based on their mere existence. I think what you're implying is less than "tempered"

Oh wait. that was three things.

[Magnum_Opus]

Immigration is needed because of low birth rates? Bollocks. Studies have shown that immigrants have no effect on the age demographic of a country. And it's quite absurd, especially for the leftists types, to espouse an idea that we need continual population growth until a country is overcrowded and real estate is through the roof, and we have to chop down forest and destroy the countryside to make room for more housing. Letting immigrants, who HOPEFULLY contribute to the economy (because often they don't) is nothing more than borrowing money in the short term (collecting additional tax revenue) which you will then have to pay back when the immigrants drop out of the work force, and once this artificial stimulus ends when it is when it's no longer possible to continue to support more immigrants, an inevitable bust will follow. Better to go with economic austerity and stop the unsustainable amounts of government spending, and limit immigration to high-skill workers who are actually needed in the economy.

[antaeus]

I've stripped out the fluff

Immigration is needed because of low birth rates? Bollocks. Studies have shown that immigrants have no effect on the age demographic of a country.

"studies" have shown. enlighten please. Peer reviewed would be a plus. That would depend entirely on the demographic range of selected immigrants.

to espouse an idea that we need continual population growth until a country is overcrowded and real estate is through the roof, and we have to chop down forest and destroy the countryside to make room for more housing.

Or you could just buy the timber, or use plantation forests. There is no such thing as a 'full' country. There is only poor management of resources.

Letting immigrants, who contribute to the economy is nothing more than borrowing money in the short term (collecting additional tax revenue) which you will then have to pay back when the immigrants drop out of the work force,

The OECD disagrees with you


Actually, this also covers the first point.

and once this artificial stimulus ends when it is when it's no longer possible to continue to support more immigrants, an inevitable bust will follow.

Please provide evidence that the majority of immigration inevitably leads to economic bust.

Better to go with economic austerity and stop the unsustainable amounts of government spending, and limit immigration to high-skill workers who are actually needed in the economy.

Somebody has to clean the toilets and the locals might get resentful if that's the only job they can get because immigrants take all the best jobs. I jest. I agree, if you're going to have immigration controls, then you should be able to pick and choose based on your economy's requirements.

Now we're reeeeallly off topic. Maybe we should split into an immigration thread.

[Magnum_Opus]

Is was quoting a study that was in the newspaper the other day, I don't know the specifics of it.

If a country has a low population increase, maybe that low population increase is actually happening for a reason as a response to environmental factors, and artificially proping up the populating increase with immigrants is a bad idea? I said it leads to a bust because it must, if you import a heap of young immigrants for the purpose of combating the ageing population, then those immigrants will also age, and so you must either continue to import immigrants forever (which in unsustainable, no country can support limitless population growth) or suck it up and pay for the elderly with the population you've got. Importing immigrants is simply delaying the inevitable.

However, the real question isn't about people in the EU migrating for economic reasons, which people don't really care about. What people care about is mass migration from countries with cultures and races completely different than the host countries, who increase crime and cultural disunity. Even if these people contribute to the economy (because often they're an economic drain, see: Sweden), that doesn't matter, because there are people who care about other things than money.

[Aexodus]

Natural population growth has been steadily decreasing as progressives and feminists have discouraged women from being mothers in favour of career women, which leaves many unhappy and regretful when they get old and have no family. Then their generation gets replaced by migrants with a more traditional culture, and the cycle repeats, until there are no more natives in that country.

[antaeus]

Is was quoting a study that was in the newspaper the other day, I don't know the specifics of it.

If a country has a low population increase, maybe that low population increase is actually happening for a reason as a response to environmental factors, and artificially proping up the populating increase with immigrants is a bad idea? I said it leads to a bust because it must, if you import a heap of young immigrants for the purpose of combating the ageing population, then those immigrants will also age, and so you must either continue to import immigrants forever (which in unsustainable, no country can support limitless population growth) or suck it up and pay for the elderly with the population you've got. Importing immigrants is simply delaying the inevitable.

However, the real question isn't about people in the EU migrating for economic reasons, which people don't really care about. What people care about is mass migration from countries with cultures and races completely different than the host countries, who increase crime and cultural disunity. Even if these people contribute to the economy (because often they're an economic drain, see: Sweden), that doesn't matter, because there are people who care about other things than money.

"Something I read the other day that I can't properly remember told me it was true so I believed it and so should you"

So no study then. So all you're giving me is opinion.

In my opinion France shouldn't have beaten England in rugby last weekend, but they did so my opinion didn't help them at all.

[Magnum_Opus]

And you're not rebutting anything I've said in my post.

[antaeus]

And you're not rebutting anything I've said in my post.

That's because I asked you to prove what you were saying and you gave no reply other than opinion and hearsay. I don't need to rebut opinion or hearsay.

[Magnum_Opus]

I don't need to prove that people age, or that people care about other things than money. But if you're not up for engaging in debate, then so be it.

[Diocle]

That's because I asked you to prove what you were saying and you gave no reply other than opinion and hearsay. I don't need to rebut opinion or hearsay.

Is it enough for you watching the pyramid of Italian population on 1998 and on 2018?

..
https://www.populationpyramid.net/italy/2018/

Have you seen? From 57 millions citizens now we are almost 60 millions!! This is not maintaining the level of population, this is artificially increasing the population amount, using slave trade as tool for this horrid Socialist experiment of social engineering! We must stop those slave traders now!

The last election is a frist step in the right direction, at least this is what I hope.

This horror it's not demographic policy, it's just legalized crime, this is slave trade at continental scale! This people, this 'political elite' is actually the frist enemy of European peoples, I'll do whatever I can to remove those leftist slave traders from the political scene, at least of my nation; in my opinion the right place to host politicians like them is jail, we'll see ..

[athanaric]

Or you could just buy the timber, or use plantation forests.

lol. Yeah, nature and tourism. Who needs those, right? Certainly nobody in Italy, which, as we all know, is rich in oil and minerals, and poor in UNESCO sites and landscapes.

There is no such thing as a 'full' country. There is only poor management of resources.

Are you for real?

What's so great about this mass immigration, anyway? Do you people think Italians/Europeans are genetically deficient and need to be "enhanced" somehow? Because many of the arguments sure sound like that.

[HannibalExMachina]

lol. Yeah, nature and tourism. Who needs those, right? Certainly nobody in Italy, which, as we all know, is rich in oil and minerals, and poor in UNESCO sites and landscapes.


Are you for real?

What's so great about this mass immigration, anyway? Do you people think Italians/Europeans are genetically deficient and need to be "enhanced" somehow? Because many of the arguments sure sound like that.

projecting much?

[athanaric]

projecting much?

Not really, no. Or when did you last see me making a case for mass immigration to some other place in order to enrich the natives?
You, on the other hand...

[Muizer]

This people, this 'political elite' is actually the frist enemy of European peoples, I'll do whatever I can to remove those leftist slave traders from the political scene, at least of my nation; in my opinion the right place to host politicians like them is jail, we'll see ..

Ha, I wonder why it is that alt rightist people always blame "liberal establishments" for everything that's going wrong. No need to answer. That was rhetorical. There is no "liberal establishment". The answer is they will need conservative help, so they're pussyfooting around the greaterst perpetrators of the injustices they perceive. Face it. You dislike the talk of the left, but the acts you complain about more often than not were pushed through on the watch of conservative majorities. So why not start weeding out the traitors first? Ah, yes. Because you'll need their help.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ha, I wonder why it is that alt rightist people always blame "liberal establishments" for everything that's going wrong. No need to answer. That was rhetorical. There is no "liberal establishment". The answer is they will need conservative help, so they're pussyfooting around the greaterst perpetrators of the injustices they perceive. Face it. You dislike the talk of the left, but the acts you complain about more often than not were pushed through on the watch of conservative majorities. So why not start weeding out the traitors first? Ah, yes. Because you'll need their help.

There is very little practical difference between a "conservative" neoliberal shill and "liberal" neoliberal shill. Neoliberal elites themselves are the problem, as they stagnate real progress and are a nothing short of parasites on many Western countries. Its not just "alt-rightists" who point that out but pretty much anyone who isn't actively working for the establishment, such as mass media.

[Muizer]

There is very little practical difference between a "conservative" neoliberal shill and "liberal" neoliberal shill. Neoliberal elites themselves are the problem, as they stagnate real progress and are a nothing short of parasites on many Western countries. Its not just "alt-rightists" who point that out but pretty much anyone who isn't actively working for the establishment, such as mass media.

I still feel something doesn't quite add up. Indeed, I too am wary of 'neoliberals', as in the people who in the wake of the collapse of Communism went for unbridled capitalism, including selling off state assets, eroding public services and generally leave society at the mercy of "the market place". That approach was perfectly in line with the vision of Europe as a purely economic union, a corporate's dream in which nation states could be played one against the other in a race to the bottom on issues like worker's rigths, quality standards, environmental standards etc. I find it rather surprising that the alt right, chooses this point in time to put the brakes on the political unification which is the only way to counter that, and which I think is the main reason "the left" sees a need to progress rather than stay put or regress. It seems like the alt right play right into the hands of corporates and against the interests of the common man.

[Heathen Hammer]

I still feel something doesn't quite add up. Indeed, I too am wary of 'neoliberals', as in the people who in the wake of the collapse of Communism went for unbridled capitalism, including selling off state assets, eroding public services and generally leave society at the mercy of "the market place". That approach was perfectly in line with the vision of Europe as a purely economic union, a corporate's dream in which nation states could be played one against the other in a race to the bottom on issues like worker's rigths, quality standards, environmental standards etc. I find it rather surprising that the alt right, chooses this point in time to put the brakes on the political unification which is the only way to counter that, and which I think is the main reason "the left" sees a need to progress rather than stay put or regress. It seems like the alt right play right into the hands of corporates and against the interests of the common man.

Advocating for the interests of common European man is playing against the interests of the common European man? Thats a rather weird conclusion to make.

[Muizer]

Advocating for the interests of common European man is playing against the interests of the common European man? Thats a rather weird conclusion to make.

The doctor who gives you the most favourable diagnosis isn't necessarily the best one to treat you.

[Heathen Hammer]

The doctor who gives you the most favourable diagnosis isn't necessarily the best one to treat you.

Sophistry aside, neoliberal elites have been overtaken by "let them eat cake" mentality long time ago. See, what spelled EU's doom was greed of people like Juncker and Merkel, who didn't just want a trade treaty and wanted to create a neoliberal USSR, which obviously failed, ironically for the same reason as to which USSR itself failed.
Another ironic aspect is that countries that were the first to break free from USSR are now opposed to its neoliberal version as well - Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, etc. Now Italy has joined the club. It is pretty simple - Europeans don't want foreigners to flood their countries. They don't want their economies to be used as piggy bank for billionaires. They don't want their military to be used as muscle for "importing democracy" to countries that don't want to be under globalist boot.
All in all, Europeans want their countries back.

[Basil II the B.S]

Bumpy.

All possible coalition talks have failed, thus new elections are now the most likely scenario, probably in June.

Likely scenario:
-the treacherous Democratic party will suffer another humiliation and continue its path towards disappearence just like the majority of European center-left parties, which betrayed the working class, and became prostitutes to financial interests of stock owners; on March 4th, the only areas in Italy were Democrats were above anyone else were the center of Milan, the center of Rome and Florence.Exclusively areas inhabited by affluent individuals, confirming that the formerly known as Communist Party of Italy is now the party of the globalist elite.
-the 5 Star Movement might gain from former Democrats voters, but their betrayal of the populist platform has become increasingly evident to many. Most notable the shift on NATO and the Euro, key elements of the campaigns by Beppe Grillo, have been abandoned; recent regional elections have indeed shown a sizeable decline compared to March 4th;
-Lega, the other big winner of this election, is growing stronger, abandoning its separating platform in favour of a national one, and reducing Berlusconi to a battered junior party soon to be absorbed completely

A right leaning coalition thus seems likely, alternatively a M5S pure government.

The former case is probably aided by the fact that NGOs have restarted smuggling people to Italy through the Mediterrenean, the net state loss to take care of them has grown from 4.5 billion to 5, and everyone is rightfully pissed off that we waste money for this.

Secondly,

Italy kind of needs as many non citizens as possible to become citizens. That is unless you can convince Italians to have more children. It's the easiest comeback to anti immigrant sentiment in Europe. Don't like foreigners... Rather than have a cry about it, have more babies.

It's the irony of nationalism in Europe today... Immigration is needed to balance low birth rates and an ageing population.

Sorry, that is advocating the progressive ethnic replacement of the Italian population. We don't need that, nor want that. It's a violation of our human right to have a homeland, preserve our identity and culture. Replacement migration is attempted genocide and should be criminalised.

We simply need to have more babies, thus reverse the social engineering project that has been going on since the 70s, promote family values, chastise decadent post-modern ways as they have now shown to be unable to produce prosperity.