Sexual Assualt in London up 20%, + acid attacks and moped gangs

[mongrel]

As if the broke-arsed British working class could afford paying several hundred quid for gunz and ammo, for no reason with such things like rent and massive utility bills to pay. Just an idea to scam rich Brits to buy guns, as the US market is saturated.

[Aexodus]

I can see the case your trying to make, but it is supposition at this point. Surely if gun rights were indeed something the electorate would support, there by now over the course of British modern history have surely been a growing movement for its support? The fact is it just does not appear. The experience there has been, particularly in Northern Ireland and the reaction to violent shootings (Be it Terrorist or Gang) is not that they want to 'arm up'- but it has been to ignite debate over whether the Police should be armed and to what extent.

What their has been though is a majority consensus seemingly to support either vocally or through not opposing- the expansion of the state security apparatus and its powers (Snoopers etc)- so from this we can also potentially see even less of a public appetite for personal armaments through their consent and agreement that the state should have greater power (confirmed at the 2015 and 2017 elections of still leaving the Conservatives as the 'largest' party- majority notwithstanding).

I would think that the rise of paramilitary movements in NI would prove there is appetite among a minority in the UK for self-defence, but that is of course an extreme example. But there are criminals and jihadis in the country, who are pretty much the only citizens with guns. Just the other day I saw a woman was attending the 'March for our Lives' as her boyfriend had been shot by an illegal handgun. An illegal handgun. Gun laws do work to an extent, but I believe that the relative lack of appetite for gun rights in the U.K. is simply that there is no precedent for it. Whereas in places like the US, people will vehemently defend these rights. As long as the government toe the line on encroaching on individual rights, there should never be a mainstream support for more relaxed pre-1925esque gun laws. What I do think should however, is that police should have access to guns more, given that Northern Ireland is the only place where this is precedent. The implication that firearms are the only way to fight this type of crime, also implies that the holders of them (police) would need to be spread enough that they account for the entire population that totally relies on police for their protection. A gun would have saved PC Keith Palmer in the Westminster attack, an unarmed police officer. As these kinds of attacks become more commonplace, it only seems natural that the NI firearms model should be rolled out in all major cities, if not the whole country.

Sorry for rambling but TLDR if you're gonna rely on police as the sole fire-arms holders then they'd better be able to respond almost immediately, anywhere.

As if the broke-arsed British working class could afford paying several hundred quid for gunz and ammo, for no eason with such things like rent and massive utility bills to pay. Just an idea to scam rich Brits to buy guns, as the US market is saturated.

I mean, just because he's arguing they should have access to guns doesn't mean they would be a mandatory insurance for everyone.

[Ziltoid]

Oxford men guilty of sexual exploitation 'on a massive scale'

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-o...channel=social

Uhm, yes, "Oxford men", typical brit names such as:

• Assad Hussain, 37, of Iffley Road, Oxford, guilty of five counts of rape and two counts of indecent assault, not guilty of one count of indecent assault.
• Kameer Iqbal, 39, of Dashwood Road, Oxford, guilty of three counts of rape.
• Khalid Hussain, 38, of Ashhurst Way, Oxford, guilty of rape and indecent assault, not guilty of one count of rape.
• Kamran Khan, 36, of Northfield Road, Bolton, guilty of indecent assault and false imprisonment, not guilty of rape.
• Moinul Islam, 41, of Wykeham Crescent, Oxford, guilty of rape, two counts of indecent assault and supplying cannabis, not guilty of false imprisonment.
• Raheem Ahmed, 40 of Starwort Path, Oxford, guilty of two counts of indecent assault and false imprisonment, not guilty of rape.
• Alladitta Yousaf, 48, of Bodley Road, Oxford, guilty of indecent assault.

[Aexodus]

Yeah, funny how normal British people are suddenly creating grooming gangs and doing FGM, innit?

[Heathen Hammer]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-o...channel=social

Uhm, yes, "Oxford men", typical brit names such as:

Yep, just a couple of "locals".

[mongrel]

Yeah, funny how normal British people are suddenly creating grooming gangs and doing FGM, innit?

And the odds of those criminals belonging to a group practising FGM are not very good, if as I suspect, they are Pakistani, not East African.

If you are saying that only white Britons are normal, how come only they are providing the baby toddler-swap rape gangs? Are we also to mock the names of child abusers , questioning their place of abode, regardless of colour or origin, or is the abuse of kids by brown fellows actually one big joke to you?

And following on...

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/michael-...rs-18031324822


Now if you are pleading it's all about the children and I have my doubts given the alt right tends to ignore child abuse by its fellows, I am also surprised not a peep is mentioned about abuse by Jehovah's Witnesses elders which has been subject to public inquiries here and in Oz. I wonder why that should be? Perhaps it's hard to construct jokes of a racist nature from such material.
.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-allegations
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...child-abuse-uk

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-investigation

. A gun would have saved PC Keith Palmer in the Westminster attack, an unarmed police officer. As these kinds of attacks become more commonplace, it only seems natural that the NI firearms model should be rolled out in all major cities, if not the whole country..

Westminster is awash with armed police, he was just unlucky to have responded first. Clue-the terrorist was shot dead moments later.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I would think that the rise of paramilitary movements in NI would prove there is appetite among a minority in the UK for self-defence, but that is of course an extreme example. But there are criminals and jihadis in the country, who are pretty much the only citizens with guns. Just the other day I saw a woman was attending the 'March for our Lives' as her boyfriend had been shot by an illegal handgun. An illegal handgun. Gun laws do work to an extent, but I believe that the relative lack of appetite for gun rights in the U.K. is simply that there is no precedent for it. Whereas in places like the US, people will vehemently defend these rights. As long as the government toe the line on encroaching on individual rights, there should never be a mainstream support for more relaxed pre-1925esque gun laws. What I do think should however, is that police should have access to guns more, given that Northern Ireland is the only place where this is precedent. The implication that firearms are the only way to fight this type of crime, also implies that the holders of them (police) would need to be spread enough that they account for the entire population that totally relies on police for their protection. A gun would have saved PC Keith Palmer in the Westminster attack, an unarmed police officer. As these kinds of attacks become more commonplace, it only seems natural that the NI firearms model should be rolled out in all major cities, if not the whole country.

Sorry for rambling but TLDR if you're gonna rely on police as the sole fire-arms holders then they'd better be able to respond almost immediately, anywhere.

No rambling at mate,you've raised some very interesting points. Your right to point out minority groups who would like access to firearms for self-defense, but overall, it has no impact on public discourse i think we both are basically saying . Indeed i'd use things like the Firearms amendment 1997 (banning all handguns after the second amendment to it in that same year) to decisively suggest that their is no popular support for private firearm ownership in the UK. I agree a big part of the lack of 'want' of guns in the UK is indeed lack of precedent- we've never had a US style 'revolution from below', nor has their ever been historic 'distrust' of the state as an entity, and a myriad of other instances that just mean guns are not a 'traditional' part of the culture (Or arguably political system as in the US Constitution). I also fully agree with your analysis in terms of both armed Police and the fact they are a viable solution potentially within the UK context to security issues- on the flip side though its an issue that needs to be dealt with care- i'm sure we all remember the later 00s riots sparked partly by the Police being suspected of unlawfully killing a young man- the political mood seems to be (rightly) one of the upmost caution when dealing with the level of armament officers are allowed due to such reactions (And iirc i don't even think the young man was shot, just that he 'died' in Police custody).

[mongrel]

Bloody Sunday provides sufficient reason to avoid the use of guns to police a protest.Down with this sort of thing.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Bloody Sunday provides sufficient reason to avoid the use of guns to police a protest.Down with this sort of thing.

That's a fair point- Ideally if Police were (Or 'are'- i'll have to recheck but i think there was a move for City-center police to now be armed) to be armed, it should be context appropriate and linked to the alert system we have (with the yellow and red warnings- i naturally can't remember its damn name ). There is no reason for Police to be armed at a protest, or even a riot in the UK.

[Aexodus]

Delete

[Aexodus]

Bloody Sunday provides sufficient reason to avoid the use of guns to police a protest.Down with this sort of thing.

Bloody Sunday wasn't policemen, it was soldiers with semi auto rifles, a tragedy that should never have happened, and an extreme example we shouldn't base all policy off.

I would say if anything this is cause for civilian armament, this is exactly the kind of 'tyrannical government' that the American 2nd amendment protects its citizens against. Also, I would say that there is every reason for actual trained police to be armed at a protest; it's the perfect target for a terrorist.

Armed police guard protests in Northern Ireland every year.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Bloody Sunday wasn't policemen, it was soldiers with semi auto rifles, a tragedy that should never have happened, and an extreme example we shouldn't base all policy off.

I would say if anything this is cause for civilian armament, this is exactly the kind of 'tyrannical government' that the American 2nd amendment protects its citizens against. Also, I would say that there is every reason for actual trained police to be armed at a protest; it's the perfect target for a terrorist.

Armed police guard protests in Northern Ireland every year.

I think though in fairness i would give N.Ireland a special case when it comes to armed Police here- its a very unique context, and thus i'm not surprised protests are guarded by armed Police there. But say something like the Miners Strikes with Thatcher and the Police brutality (and violence on both sides)- i think firearms would have been a horrific addition to the Police arsenal. Moreover again i go back to the recent London riots inflamed/partly caused by the dead of a young man in Police custody- there isn't i feel the 'civil stability' for a US style 'always armed' Police service- Tasers are controversial enough . But i do think a contextual basis for armament is something that is/needs to happen. I am rather thankful in some ways, to sort of address your point about 'tyrannical government' in a roundabout way- that we actually do not have the same extent of a militarizing 'Police Force' as the US currently has- where their getting things like APC's and heavy automatic weaponry in response to instability and Terrorism... at least we're here in the UK arguing over if Tasers or at worst Hand-guns are given to some officers on some occasions. So there in my usually critical and dour outlook on the UK is something to feel better about

[Aexodus]

At the end of the day, we do need to take a serious look at the root cause of the terrorism that causes police to seek more extreme measures. Admittedly, it would be quite unprecedented for Policemen to be 'always armed' be that with tasers or whatever. What can we do to stop this at source. Heck, since when were acid attacks, and moped gangs a thing?

[Dante Von Hespburg]

At the end of the day, we do need to take a serious look at the root cause of the terrorism that causes police to seek more extreme measures. Admittedly, it would be quite unprecedented for Policemen to be 'always armed' be that with tasers or whatever. What can we do to stop this at source. Heck, since when were acid attacks, and moped gangs a thing?

All fair comments here. I think to begin to even address all this i think the distinction (that the UK government has typically blurred) has to be drawn between 'Crime' and 'Terrorism'- the former most interest groups and reports ascribe to austerity and economic outlook (Be it cuts in real terms to Police funding and support networks, to work currently not actually 'paying' with food bank usage for employed people rising and the growing 'underemployment')- to tackle this investment in all areas (and an investment-led economy) and an end to austerity is the only real fix i can see. In regards to Terrorism things are more complex- economics perhaps play a part (particularly in terms of education)- It was interesting reading the US interrogation reports of ISIS members in the Middle-East- most of whom are part of ISIS not for any particular fanatical religious affiliation- but because in the ruined state of Iraq it provided a steady income, and was also for some a chance for 'sweet loot' (my words )- most were not even aware of the tenants of Islam that ISIS espoused particularly. The religious ones (as throughout history really) tended to be the leaders. Now the UK of course is not the middle east, but i think there is a certain element of truth their- disillusioned people will seek stupid causes- though this is probably a minor factor- a bigger one is education- It beggars belief that the government is allowing 'Academies' to choose their own curriculum's and teaching styles (To a very lax degree)- hence the issues about radical academies- segregating classes and religious groups- but a bigger issue generally is the allowance of Saudi funded Wahaddist preachers to come to the UK as Imans (Which the now 'sat upon' Terror report supposedly stated) who are preaching this stuff to those who lack economic or educational opportunities, combined with i would say the ''siege mentality' of the British Muslim community (which has a fair basis i would argue in terms of the governments legislation regarding their children in schools- which has led to a lot of ups)- i mean heck have you guys seen the latest policing adverts? 'If you see something suspicious- call the Police immediately'- the whole thing filled with bs examples- its incredibly reminiscent of Police state rhetoric of informers and 'Reds under the bed'- and not only panics the public and British Muslims, but i would say counterproductive to 'integration'- which the UK has a real issue with- mostly due to lack of actual funding for any citizenship programmes now (English lang courses are reportedly no longer being offered as readily avaible to adults- White, Asian or whatever due to the funding crisis).

Just my thoughts of course on that- but yeah there is a huge debate to be had on how and why these things are happened- i think the real issue is beyond us lot in this thread- that debate just isn't happening.

A final point of interest- the 'acid attacks' are apparently a hark back to the Victorian gangs in London- who would use it as a weapon to mark people. I think its rediscovery was due to the crack down on knives and the easy access and ability to carry it without fear of the law (at the time)- and now its started a new gang fad. I think the only counter to this is a actual Police presence on the streets- which is the one thing we don't have currently. It is mind boggling though and horrific.

[mongrel]

Bloody Sunday wasn't policemen, it was soldiers with semi auto rifles, a tragedy that should never have happened, and an extreme example we shouldn't base all policy off.

I would say if anything this is cause for civilian armament, this is exactly the kind of 'tyrannical government' that the American 2nd amendment protects its citizens against. Also, I would say that there is every reason for actual trained police to be armed at a protest; it's the perfect target for a terrorist.

Armed police guard protests in Northern Ireland every year.

They were there to police a peaceful march. We know the rest.......................................................



Your further comment sounds like justification for treason and terrorism.

Stuff

The Prevent programme is flawed when dealing with Islamists as it assumes it starts froma “moderate” understanding and practice of religion, to an increasingly violent or extremist involvement. This position is consistent with professional commentators like Quilliam. But, as you say real ISIS fighters tend to be losers , in it for ther loot, power, captured women.

it is now being used on the far right. . I can't see it working either, It is best, I think to target the social media exploiting vulnerable men. The money might be better spent on education, the best remedy against far-right views are a good education and the posssession of critical faculties.

[Heathen Hammer]

Apparently, London's murder rate overtakes that of New York, probably caused by the usual factors behind crime such as mass immigration from third world countries, prohibition of substances at items that creates black market and strict gun control making it easier for criminals to target their victims.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The Prevent programme is flawed when dealing with Islamists as it assumes it starts froma “moderate” understanding and practice of religion, to an increasingly violent or extremist involvement. This position is consistent with professional commentators like Quilliam. But, as you say real ISIS fighters tend to be losers , in it for ther loot, power, captured women.

it is now being used on the far right. . I can't see it working either, It is best, I think to target the social media exploiting vulnerable men. The money might be better spent on education, the best remedy against far-right views are a good education and the posssession of critical faculties.

All very much agreed mate. I think indeed as prevent is rolled out against the 'Far right', you'll basically see what was disparate beliefs that could be countered and debated through other more open means (Be it actually providing people with economic security, the provision of an education and most importantly, opportunities and a 'stake' in democracy which so many currently lack), become unified by a shared sense of the state 'out to get them'- which rather would confirm their beliefs in many ways. Copperknickers in another thread make a very good post too on the impact of the 'war on terror' on all this- a war, without aims, without defined parameters which the public has filled in by scapegoating (with no government direction not to) minorities and has actively divided national unity. It was policy stupidity at its finest. The 'vengence raid' against A-stan- was defined, but the expansion of it to Iraq, and then the subsequent and messy involvement in the Syrian civil war (Backing the Saudi's, who were funding parts of ISIS to fight Iran and Assad etc) has big repercussions on the domestic front.

Apparently, London's murder rate overtakes that of New York, probably caused by the usual factors behind crime such as mass immigration from third world countries, prohibition of substances at items that creates black market and strict gun control making it easier for criminals to target their victims.

Indeed- though again, its not 'firearms' but organized gangs with knives are the driving issue- so gun control won't make a blind bit of difference:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8281756.html

What firearms would do is make the gangs more lethal sure.- and bearing in mind the whole 20 meter radius ff gun vs knife that all armed police use because iirc anywhere within that space- the knife wins usually due to reaction times.

But the key that should be added to your list, and the one that needs to be addressed is the stupidity of continuing austerity:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...to-fight-crime
https://www.london.gov.uk/press-rele...d-dip-to-27500
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-a3615751.html

Its literally causing the Police presence to collapse. You properly fund them as Blair did and you'll see the crime rate decline again, and this time if no economically illiterate Conservative government gets in, you'll see it continue to diminish. Bear in mind too that immigration is now lower than it was under Blair, particularly in the wake of brexit, and we still have this climbing crime rate- that to me seems that they did something right, which the Conservatives are definitely now- and the biggest difference is in the funding.

[PointOfViewGun]

Apparently, London's murder rate overtakes that of New York, probably caused by the usual factors behind crime such as mass immigration from third world countries, prohibition of substances at items that creates black market and strict gun control making it easier for criminals to target their victims.

This is a case of lying using statistics. If we only look at a particular data set the claim would be true.

In reality:

[Dante Von Hespburg]

This is a case of lying using statistics. If we only look at a particular data set the claim would be true.

In reality:

Now that's interesting, teach me for not looking beyond the news clickbait. Good post.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8283866.html

While London remains substantially the safer city overall, with less than half the homicides of New York last year, a recent spike in knife crime meant February was the first month the UK capital was home to more murders than the US city.

So it was a spike in one month that briefly put it above New York, for that month.

@HH So we are indeed looking at Conservative austerity as the real cause- Indeed it seems New York has been successively lowering its crime rate by expanding the Police presence. It hasn't bricked up the borders, and gun-ownership did not help either. A properly funded Police force did though.

[Cyclops]

...
@HH So we are indeed looking at Conservative austerity as the real cause- Indeed it seems New York has been successively lowering its crime rate by expanding the Police presence. It hasn't bricked up the borders, and gun-ownership did not help either. A properly funded Police force did though.

There's an interesting point in the "Freakanomics" analysis of crime, larger police forces generally lower crime rates even if the police force is somewhat corrupt. Up to a point the quality matters a lot less than the quantity.

Nice to see a sensible post on the topic, I have to say this thread reeks of bigoted crap.