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Thread: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

  1. #61
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    When traditional morality and its reinforcement of patriarchal self-destruction and inequality is what's destroying the West in the first place...they very well might.
    Maximilian,

    If a person. male or female earns more than me what right do I have to object to that? Why if all monies earned or gained was put into a pot to be shared by 7 billion people while in theory a good idea, it still wouldn't work as some would squander their share whilst others would enhance it thus making, you guess right, more inequality. The thing is that's its been tried without mentioning that the leaders of such always ended up rich but the poor beggars never saw real benefits making it a total failure wherever it was instigated. I remember growing up with the like of Harold Wilson and Co who had the same dream here in Britain to be followed by Blair and Co and it reminds me at the time how all these socialists quite quickly became millionaires and some still are. It reminds me of the old saying, " What's yours is mine and what's mine remains mine."

  2. #62
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If a person. male or female earns more than me what right do I have to object to that?
    It depends on the disparity, which is the result of how that disparity came about. We're not talking about the difference between a skilled and non-skilled worker here, we're talking about the disparity between the working masses and the 1%. And that inequality is the result of the exploitation of the working class and marginalized people under capitalism.
    I'd expect someone of your religious background to understand the value of socialism as opposed to capitalism. Surely you should be opposing the accumulation of vast wealth in the hands of the few? You should be fighting for those oppressed and marginalized by capitalism, racism, sexism, colonialism, imperialism, et al. Your own messiah and savior-figure planted his feet on the side of the oppressed and down-trod; not with the mighty and rich, not with those for whom traditionalism masked the accumulation of wealth and power.

    And that last bit is what I've been saying through this thread: the men referenced in the video on page make a couple of fair points about traditions reflecting unique cultural perspectives. But they are undone by an undertone of nationalism and right-wing ideas. If you see the comments on the video, and other videos and blog posts made by the blond fellow in particular, it's quite clear that he's a White Nationalist. This goes by what I've been saying: blind traditionalism often is a smokescreen for racism, sexism, and patriarchy.
    I would not describe the video as "A Pagan take on traditionalism", as it is neither reflective of the Modern Pagan movement as a whole, nor is such traditionalism unique to iterations of Paganism. The alt-right, for instance, is predominantly atheist; and most neoreactionaries and white nationalists are Christian fascists.
    Last edited by MaximiIian; June 09, 2018 at 02:54 PM.

  3. #63
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Maximilian,

    The 1% you talk of are the ones who make employment for masses possible but since that figure can be broken down a little most of it consists of small to medium size businesses. I agree with you that there are some who make excessive wages but these wages are not to the detriment of the workforce rather the enhancement that the workforce remain employed because they are profit based. We only have to look at the likes of Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea and the likes who have not yet cast off socialism like China and Russia to see the misery that their equality delivers. Concerning God, He is not against people becoming rich, that concern being what they do with their riches. Jesus was known by those who knew Him to be the son of a carpenter for whom we can imagine He worked for before beginning His earthly ministry. In fact it was the way in which the leaders delivered their offerings that bothered Him most when He saw an old woman put in all she had whilst they flaunted the portions they put in. Or as Paul put it each man had to work using what skills they had to promote the Gospel that they now lived under.

    As for me I do see the value of capitalism as against socialism because I come from a business background having run at least seven companies most of which employed around twenty to fifty people. I took in the continual moanings of some employees who thought they deserved more not taking into account whether the business could survive their demands especially in the very competitive markets we have all across the world. Not being satisfied with having a job for which they agreed to take they could have turned it down to look for something better because the time-frame I am talking of there certainly were more jobs available than workers to fill them. So, as a Christian I have no problem living under capitalism as the other systems have proved to be worthless.

  4. #64
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    and the likes who have not yet cast off socialism like China and Russia...
    Haha, what? Neither of those countries are socialist.
    Russia is a hypercapitalist oligarchy, effectively ran by business oligarchs hand-in-hand with the state security apparatus. It very much an exemplar of Late Capitalism.
    China is not socialist, and has not been for many decades, but rather is state capitalist.

    not taking into account whether the business could survive their demands especially in the very competitive markets we have all across the world.
    If your business cannot survive paying people a living wage, then your business doesn't deserve to survive. Basic human dignity should not sidelined for profit.

    But perhaps there is a cultural disconnect here. I do not know what the situation is in the UK, but here in the US minimum wage is not even half enough to survive on for the average worker going at it full-time or working two part-time jobs. Stress and anxiety exacerbate overwork, and barely anyone can afford medical or mental health care, or are otherwise being crushed by student loan debt. On top of systemic oppression, often going back centuries, that makes it even harder for marginalized peoples to remedy this situation. Capitalism is quite literally killing us in America.

    It seems that you have no problem living under capitalism primarily because you've profited off the exploitation of others under capitalism.
    Last edited by MaximiIian; June 11, 2018 at 09:20 PM.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Maximilian,

    I did say that they had tried socialism and it failed. Surely even you can see that profit is the key to successful businesses as well as employment? What's killing America is illegal immigration by leftist loonies who see votes in those people because that is what drives the take home pay of the legal citizens down. Never mind dear ole Donald is sorting that out. Having lived under both Tory and Socialist governments here in Britain it is no false claim to make that the Tories have always had to come in to clean up the mess left by Labour. Once you've had seventy-five years of that I think you'll begin to understand.

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Haha, what? Neither of those countries are socialist.
    Russia is a hypercapitalist oligarchy, effectively ran by business oligarchs hand-in-hand with the state security apparatus. It very much an exemplar of Late Capitalism.
    China is not socialist, and has not been for many decades, but rather is state capitalist.
    Those countries are better described as corporatist, aka crony capitalist, which is the system characterised by Fascism. Not liberal capitalism. Sure liberal capitalism can go wrong, but not every single time it is tried. In fact, it has brought some of the world’s greatest living standards and innovation, no wonder China and Russia mostly abandoned it to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs.

    If your business cannot survive paying people a living wage, then your business doesn't deserve to survive. Basic human dignity should not sidelined for profit.
    ’The tolerant left’

    This kind of hardline absolutist approach is the root of the problem. It’s feelings before facts. You do realise if you follow this logic through, there will be no jobs at all for the unskilled labour market because no-one can afford to pay them at all? Something is better than nothing. It’s amazing to me people honestly think they are entitled to other people’s money for things that aren’t the owner’s fault.
    Last edited by Aexodus; June 12, 2018 at 08:19 PM.
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  7. #67
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Just a wee story about the attitude some workers have to the detriment of the business that employed them. My company bought over another laundry company up in the highlands of Scotland and I was sent up to try and sort it out because it wasn't doing as well as it could have. So, first day on the job and up for six to get the boiler making steam to drive the machines. At eight o'clock only half the workforce were at their stations, the rest drifting in over the next hour. I decided to see how the week panned out before having a discussion with all the workers and boy were my eyes opened over that week. The next day on looking out from my office I couldn't see anyone and on going outside here was a long queue at the lemonade lorry buying their drinking needs not just for the day but the week. Two days later again looking out of my office I see this guy with a large ledger in his hands and a leather money bag over his shoulder. On asking one of the workers who he was, the reply came that he was the rent man collecting their rent. I decided to speak to these delivery guys and the rent man saying that I don't mind them doing their jobs but they had to do it here at work break times to which they moaningly accepted.

    I then stopped all work to give a talk on how and why this business like any other needed their full attention in fulfilling the hours that they had agreed to in the procedure of getting a job there. Of course my talk never got very far in when this loudmouth complained that they weren't getting enough for what they were doing and some agreed. Thankfully my own boss had traveled up so he was there to back me up so the first thing I got down to was that this business was failing and would continue to fail if everyone just did as they thought fit. After all when employed they agreed terms with the previous employer, him keeping his side of the bargain, but them not and that's where the problem arose. It didn't shut our commie loudmouth up so he was going to be dealt with individually. To cut a long story short after so many months of this and losing a major contract because we couldn't always meet delivery we sold the place on and said good riddance. A side note that I took my wife and kids up there because she was a worker meaning that many a night whilst the kids slept in laundry baskets we kept machines running just to make our targets. That's what running a small business can be like which eventually took its toll on me .

  8. #68

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    I find it quite interesting how "pagan" revivalism is present as a force against various forms of globalism not just in Europe, but the rest of the world as well, be it a Zoroastrian Kurd shooting ISIS member, or a dude wearing Mjolnir defending a woman against antifa thug at some anti-EU rally in Europe.

  9. #69

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I find it quite interesting how "pagan" revivalism is present as a force against various forms of globalism not just in Europe, but the rest of the world as well, be it a Zoroastrian Kurd shooting ISIS member, or a dude wearing Mjolnir defending a woman against antifa thug at some anti-EU rally in Europe.
    I know as many pagans who are lefty, globalism liberals as pagans (like myself) who are very sceptical of it. Brexit caused quite a divide in my local pagan community.

  10. #70

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    I am sorry for my brief and maybe unnecessary intervention, but I just read "Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness" and it gives me the very strong impression that it might be very beneficial to you if you read a bit more about history. No offense. There is a lot of aspect of ancient life that would be considered even today more sophisticated than our nowaday standard. I also don't encourage generalization, but there were in fact more gender equality at some point and time in our history, rationality was very encouraged too (you just need to see how much religion has contributed to science at some point) and spirituality has never reach higher height than in our ancient history, for it is in our most profound nature to seek answers and in those time (wide term sorry) nothing or mostly nothing could be scientifically explained, so they mostly find their answers in spirituality. Hope what I wrote makes sense to you.

  11. #71
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoggyFogFiggy View Post
    ...and it gives me the very strong impression that it might be very beneficial to you if you read a bit more about history. No offense. There is a lot of aspect of ancient life that would be considered even today more sophisticated than our nowaday standard...
    And the elements of that statement that are true, i.e. the pervasive gender inequality and general cruelty of the society, are things that are common to pre-Modern societies, regardless of religious inclination. It's no more inherent to Paganism or Christianity or Islam than it is to any other religion or ideal. It's just a function of the pre-Modern world, where a lack of labor-saving technology combined with a lack of medicine and nutrition led to short, painful, and often violent lives and a highly stratified division of labor based on gender and, later, race. It's terrible, and worthy of criticism, but it's not unique to any one culture or religion throughout history.

  12. #72

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    We do not share the same definition of gender equality, yours is the one that has been adapt to our deficient contemporary era and mine is the one that is consistent with time. Without offense. Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote! Anyway, the disproportionate perspective we give to this aspect of our society, which has become the number 1 issue of our generation, did not exist at this time or at least never in a context as toxic as ours nor with the same magnitude. Gender equality was simply not a concept that was being addressed at that time. The women had their role and the men too. They were equal, but KNEW to have a different role. Of course, I generalize about time and individuals, they necessarily existed exceptions at some point and in some areas, but in general it was the way it was in western Europe and Asia. If the equality of the sexes was such a stake, never Joan of Arc would have been allowed to direct military operations, never Elizabeth and Victoria would have become queen. People would have found a way to remove or distance them from power. But at the time, as I've been saying from the beginning, gender equality was not an issue. Women and men were equal, but different. They knew it. I mean just look the story of Philippa of Toulouse, as early as the 11th century! It's a crazy funny one! Her husband, A DUKE, could have her killed at any moment for all the freaking headaches she created, but he didn't. And just think about the role of mothers! They were the one raising children, they were a foundation factor in keeping the society working. People have a very odd misconception of those time. Things were not, at all, as they are depicted in movies, novel and even a lot of documentaries. So much that we still learn a lot, a lot of things about medieval way of life even in 2018.

    Note : It is difficult for me to consistently express my ideas in English, I use a lot of Google Translation, but I hope to succeed in making myself understood and at any point no offense were meant! I'm genuinely intrigued in what people believe and know and really open to learn things.

    EDIT : And with 12,826 freaking posts you should be a citizen or moderator by now!

    EDIT 2 : Precision. Of course men were ruling everything. It was part of their roles among other things. It didn't made them superior to women. The fact that they had more power didn't made them superior in any way, they just had power. It is not a position of superiority, just a position of power. Superiority meaning being better, superior, from another level. All men had women to their level, queen, duchess, countess. And they were spiritually, intellectually and culturally equals. And we cannot speak of inequality about their different role in society, because it was equally distributed and shared in a manner to keep society going. Evolving. And as you said, life was painful, short and sometimes (not most of the time) really violent, hence the freaking futility of having a gender inequality issue.
    Last edited by R.P. Gryphus; July 09, 2018 at 11:53 PM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoggyFogFiggy View Post
    I am sorry for my brief and maybe unnecessary intervention, but I just read "Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness" and it gives me the very strong impression that it might be very beneficial to you if you read a bit more about history. No offense. There is a lot of aspect of ancient life that would be considered even today more sophisticated than our nowaday standard. I also don't encourage generalization, but there were in fact more gender equality at some point and time in our history, rationality was very encouraged too (you just need to see how much religion has contributed to science at some point) and spirituality has never reach higher height than in our ancient history, for it is in our most profound nature to seek answers and in those time (wide term sorry) nothing or mostly nothing could be scientifically explained, so they mostly find their answers in spirituality. Hope what I wrote makes sense to you.
    I thought it was fairly undisputed, even by ancient sources (like Caesar's Gallic Wars), that European pagans, including Germanics and Gauls, were pretty strongly 'patriarchal" in nature and the patriarch had life and death control over women.

    As for rationality I think that was mainly a Greek thing, the rest of Europe's pagans had little understanding of philosophy, or at least that I'm aware of.
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    I thought it was fairly undisputed, even by ancient sources (like Caesar's Gallic Wars), that European pagans, including Germanics and Gauls, were pretty strongly 'patriarchal" in nature and the patriarch had life and death control over women.

    As for rationality I think that was mainly a Greek thing, the rest of Europe's pagans had little understanding of philosophy, or at least that I'm aware of.
    The classic view of philosophers is Greek and later refined by Christian and Islamic religious scholars and with a very strange and fascinating parallel in China.

    However every culture has it's own form of philosophical tradition, questioning how the world works and challenging accepted modes of thought and behaviour. The Norse philosophy took the form of poetry, the eddas being comparable to the Greek and later Roman tradition of using poetry to explore and challenge morality.

  15. #75

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Strongly patriarchal is just a very elegant way to summarize what I wrote, it just means men were ruling society, I don't see the inequality in this as much as I wouldn't see it in a man being the director of a school over a woman being a teacher. "The patriarch had life and death control over women." That is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about... or very bad generalization. Of course it did happen at many point in our history, but it is very far from being so for the entirety of our history. I gave you one very good example about Philippa of Toulouse. Of course it would help if we would specified the time of our history we are talking about, we sure can go back as far as the Neanderthal time, but what would be the point of that but just to serve our viewpoint and contradict the other? I do recognize that at many times men had life and death control over women, but it really depended on they social or cultural situation and more broadly the continental atmosphere. But the thing being, as oddly as it may sound, the fact that men had that much control didn't make them superior in any way to women... because if they had life and death control over them, they had it over men too. It was just a position of power, not of superiority.
    Last edited by R.P. Gryphus; July 10, 2018 at 12:01 PM.

  16. #76
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    I thought it was fairly undisputed, even by ancient sources (like Caesar's Gallic Wars), that European pagans, including Germanics and Gauls, were pretty strongly 'patriarchal" in nature and the patriarch had life and death control over women.
    It varied. Greek and Roman society were strongly, sometimes even violently, patriarchal, but so was Jewish and later Christian society. Now, there is some debate over how much of that was due to Christianity adopting Roman societal norms in the course of expansion. We know precious little about Gaulish society, and Caesar's reports are heavily biased. Germanic society is also scarcely detailed, but we do have some evidence that they were a bit more egalitarian than originally believed. Men and women were treated as equal under Germanic law, could both own property and enter into commerce. Don't mistake me, of course, these societies were still patriarchal and treated women as something to protect, and often constrained them within traditional gender roles. But there were times and places where women could step outside of those prescribed roles, and were valued for it.

    As for rationality I think that was mainly a Greek thing, the rest of Europe's pagans had little understanding of philosophy, or at least that I'm aware of.
    You give people far too little credit. Ancient people weren't dumb or unintelligent, or even uneducated; it's just that their education and lives were focused differently. Just look at the importance of poetry and the arts among high-born education among the Gauls and Celts. These people were capable of great engineering feats, so it's not like mathematics and geometry were beyond their grasp either. But, for a variety of reasons, written records did not survive. And furthermore, a dedicated to philosophy as a discipline requires a certain degree of cultural hegemony, a situation where an educated and wealthy class can feel secure enough in their place and resources to dedicate time and effort to specific questions of metaphysical importance. The Gauls, by and large, did not become unified enough to support those conditions. They were probably near about on their way to that, but the Romans came in and brutally disrupted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoggyFogFiggy View Post
    We do not share the same definition of gender equality, yours is the one that has been adapt to our deficient contemporary era and mine is the one that is consistent with time.
    Gender equality is gender equality. Societies can be closer or further from that ideal, but there aren't really different "definitions" of gender equality. It's exactly what it says on the tin-- the genders are treated equally not just in the letter of the law, but also in terms of social norms and standards.
    And I'd hardly call contemporary society "deficient". Violence, malnutrition, and social inequality are lower today than ever before. It doesn't mean we don't still have work to do in social progress, but it's hardly the middle ages out here.

    And with 12,826 freaking posts you should be a citizen or moderator by now!
    Ain't nobody got time for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoggyFogFiggy View Post
    Strongly patriarchal is just a very elegant way to summarize what I wrote, it just means men were ruling society, I don't see the inequality in this as much...
    It's a matter of it being institutionalized in the society. When a group rules society, that dominance becomes entrenched before very long, and society molds itself to maintain the power of those already at the top. It is a hegemonic kind of social-cultural power. And it's not a good thing. It is an unjust and unequal state of affairs.

    It was just a position of power, not of superiority.
    That is the exact same thing.

  17. #77
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    This gender equality stuff baffles me at times simply because as a married man whatever I do in the house or for the house my wife always has a little niggle about it as most married men will probably agree with. It doesn't matter about the technicalities because there is always something that she would have done differently and whenever that has happened we always had to revert to my way. That's women and there is nothing that can be done about that so the cry is always " I need you to do this for me or that for me." Yeah, and it has to be done now. Where are my rights and gender equality? So, might I suggest that for Christmas every man should give their wives a set of overalls, a set of tools and then leave them to it?

  18. #78

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    This gender equality stuff baffles me at times simply because as a married man whatever I do in the house or for the house my wife always has a little niggle about it as most married men will probably agree with. It doesn't matter about the technicalities because there is always something that she would have done differently and whenever that has happened we always had to revert to my way. That's women and there is nothing that can be done about that so the cry is always " I need you to do this for me or that for me." Yeah, and it has to be done now. Where are my rights and gender equality? So, might I suggest that for Christmas every man should give their wives a set of overalls, a set of tools and then leave them to it?
    What an ignorant and bigoted view on gender equality. You can't just pick any women and try to evaluate a whole concept that's in reality based on providing equal opportunity to both genders without favoring one over the other. There is no sense in what you're saying.
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    What an ignorant and bigoted view on gender equality. You can't just pick any women and try to evaluate a whole concept that's in reality based on providing equal opportunity to both genders without favoring one over the other. There is no sense in what you're saying.
    I don't think basics can be accused of any bigoted and ignorant statement about women, in Europe we are now accustomed to living with very powerful women in our private lives and on the public scene, we can just advance some ironic and nostalgic thought about the happy ancient days in which the ancient Gods were stil walking on Earth and the European women were not so powerful. I think it's understandable as mental stance, especially coming from a continent in which Feminism is a three centuries old value and now law in any EU nation.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    some ironic and nostalgic thought about the happy ancient days in which the ancient Gods were stil walking on Earth
    In fact,outside the gates of Thebes, Ismene refused to help Antigone,
    We are girls,girls cannot force their way against men
    ...but she was not lucky.

    Well, I see your point, Creon. (j/k) "From now on, they will act like women.Tie them up! No more free-running women!"

    --
    Seriously now,
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    This gender equality stuff baffles me
    Gender equality is achieved when women and men enjoy the same rights and opportunities across all sectors of society.So, what's the problem with gender equality?
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 16, 2018 at 04:02 PM.
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