A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

[basics]

Davidos,

God's call to His people has always been, " Come out from among them," meaning that a Christian whether Jew or Gentile Christians are a separated body belonging to God and are to strive to be that way because the rest of the world hates them. The one thing that the Scriptures teach and warn of is that there will be many who call themselves Christian but are not according to Jesus. Adopting a date is not therefore as venomous as adopting the practices of pagan religions as all that makes a Christian is his or her faith placed on Jesus' work on the cross for them. True Christians therefore try to emulate Him as best they can.

[sumskilz]

Even if the builders of Stone Henge spoke an Indo European language, it wouldn't have been an ancentrial language of English, which came from a different branch of the Indo European family. Very little of English derives from Celtic languages, and the influence of Celtic languages on English is very slight. At best, English is only distantly related, not directly descended.

And it isn't even certain the builders of Stonehedge an Indo-European language, that is just a guess. As far back as Stonehenge was built, the language could have been non Indo European, like Basque, or Etruscan, we just can't be certain. No one thinks Celtic arose in the British Isle as far as I know.

Almost certainly they did not speak an Indo-European language. Megalithic circles first appeared in the Levant, spread from Anatolia throughout the Mediterranean, and then up the Atlantic Coast. They were mostly a Neolithic phenomenon, and were built in places Indo-European languages didn't arrive at until historical times (Sardinia for example). It's pretty clear now that the Indo-European languages originated on the Pontic Steppe. The Bell Beaker people, who had a mix of Steppe and Neolithic European ancestry, were the first group of partial Steppe ancestry to arrive in the British Isles, at which time there was a 90% genetic replacement of the population that would have built Stonehenge. However, some repairs and rearrangement took place during the Bell Beaker period.

[MaximiIian]

As an Asatruar, I cannot fathom how a Christian can with a straight face accuse others of "acting like Muslims" when your lot used every dirty trick and psychotic violent means to eradicate Heathenry over 600 years. Bite me.

And, to boot, their "accusation" displays a rather alarmingly racist attitude towards people of color who have traditionally been Muslim.

That said, this video isn't really the best example of Heathenry and its ideals. Their statements edge a bit close to racism, or racial essentialism.

[Heathen Hammer]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

The whole notion of European "pagans" as rowdy barbarians in horned helmets, who did nothing but pillage and rape is purely 1800s Romanticist myth.
In reality, for example, Scandinavians of Dark Ages were mostly traders who were rather advanced in fields like sea navigation and metallurgy. Not to mention that Greco-Roman civilization was pagan for most of its existence, which didn't prevent it from its tremendous achievements. Original Christianity, before Constantine was a rather primitive cult, which only gained spiritual and cultural depth after centuries of influence by both Greco-Roman and later Germanic culture, which were inherently pagan. Its adoption was not, in fact, due to supposed superiority of Christian ideals, but rather convenience for rulers of that time, providing them with economic and political benefits, while population itself adopted that religion merely symbolically, as multitude of practices in European Christianity were simply carbon copies of pagan rituals and practices.
Granted, one can't deny the relatively positive role that some aspects of Christianity played in Indo-European civilization, primarily resistance to Islamic conquests. However, it was in decline since reformation and "enlightenment" begun. And what of Christianity in Europe, and West in general, today? There is no pan-Christian movement to resist globalism, neoliberalism, marxism or Islam (despite these forces being openly hostile to ideals that Judeo-Christians supposedly represents), instead we see Pope who wants Europeans to accept mass immigration and evangelicals who care more about Israel then about their own countries. Unless some major reformation occurs, I don't see how Christianity would help Europeans overcome these forces and reclaim their homelands, on the other hand, growing interest and research in purely Indo-European spirituality can play quite the influential role in it.
After all, since people who support above-mentioned anti-European ideologies hate European paganism for a reason.

[basics]

The problem that most people seem to have is that Christianity is supposed to be a huge conglomerate that takes over the world yet in Jesus' own words, the pathway is so narrow that few ever get in to the Kingdom He preached about. Indeed the path begins with rebirth and that by the Spirit of God something that most so-called Christian systems believe to be the sprinkling of water on babes or even adults. They seem to ignore that the Baptist said that what he did was nothing but a preparation for what Jesus would do and what the Holy Spirit would seal. Therefore to them it is numbers that count and that can be said of all the religions on this planet with the exception of all them that have been born again of the Spirit of God. So, in the end times there is going to be a one world system that most will adhere to regardless of what they once believed and to harness the Jews into it there is to be a messianic figure called the false prophet who will declare that he is their messiah. When that time comes and it has started already it is a sign of the real Jesus Christ's return for the final downfall of all His enemies.

[swabian]

@basics: Maybe you should just take a break? Have a nap?

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

The wares they trafficed were mostly Irish people of course, apart from Slavs.

[Heathen Hammer]

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

The wares they trafficed were mostly Irish people of course, apart from Slavs.

Christian kingdoms of that time did the same thing. What's your point?

[Prodromos]

Granted, one can't deny the relatively positive role that some aspects of Christianity played in Indo-European civilization, primarily resistance to Islamic conquests. However, it was in decline since reformation and "enlightenment" begun. And what of Christianity in Europe, and West in general, today? There is no pan-Christian movement to resist globalism, neoliberalism, marxism or Islam (despite these forces being openly hostile to ideals that Judeo-Christians supposedly represents), instead we see Pope who wants Europeans to accept mass immigration and evangelicals who care more about Israel then about their own countries. Unless some major reformation occurs, I don't see how Christianity would help Europeans overcome these forces and reclaim their homelands, on the other hand, growing interest and research in purely Indo-European spirituality can play quite the influential role in it.
After all, since people who support above-mentioned anti-European ideologies hate European paganism for a reason.

I think most Westerners fighting against these ideas today are Christians. The few non-Christians fighting against them tend to be at least culturally "Judeo-Christian." By and large most irreligious people, pagans included, generally support these ideas instead of fighting against them. Right-wing pagans are a small minority. Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

Not all Christians are the same, though. There are some Christians who support the Left, but most of them belong to dying "mainline" Protestant denominations or are liberal Catholics. They are not exactly orthodox Christians. Orthodox Jews, conservative Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and evangelical Protestantism are pretty much humanity's last best hope. But people generally should look to the afterlife, instead of looking for an ideology that will create a perfect world here. That rarely ends well.

[Logios]

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

Fixed that for you. Those holding the quill to the parchment were probably not inclined to write anything positive about any counterparts believing in gods different from their own. Archeological evidence - like what was found in the Wood Quay area (before the digs had to be stopped because of the city development) however shows a different picture. Ironically those in favour of city development over acheological digs used the "slave trader" argument for why the archeological digs were not supposed to be important, and what was eventually found ironically spoke against that.

Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

In your own head or what? My belief in the Gods highly disqualifies me as an atheist - do you really not see the contradiction of terms here? Ok, maybe we don't usually invite a lot of official surveyors to do official surveys on us, but is that really the base of your oh so high doubt? We are just regular people honoring the Gods - no left, right or against anyone included.

[Prodromos]

In your own head or what? My belief in the Gods highly disqualifies me as an atheist - do you really not see the contradiction of terms here? Ok, maybe we don't usually invite a lot of official surveyors to do official surveys on us, but is that really the base of your oh so high doubt? We are just regular people honoring the Gods - no left, right or against anyone included.

Pagan revivalists are completely different from "indigenous" pagans, such as Finno-Ugrics or East/South Asians. Most of the research I've read, which is pretty limited due to the small number of pagan revivalists, indicates that most of them don't really have any particular religious beliefs, they're generally just using paganism as a way to rebel against Christianity and/or conservative society. They tend to be pretty heavily defined by the political and libertine lifestyle aspects of paganism, the religious aspects are completely ignored and an afterthought. The demographics also skew fairly overwhelmingly either male or female and either young or middle aged, depending which religion. So I'm not sure pagan revivalists are an actual pagan religion, it seems to be just a subculture like hipsters or goths.

Don't put a hex on me, pls. I think almost any religion contains at least some truth. Christianity is just more true than any other belief system. Pagans usually convert easily to Christianity because pagan religions rarely preclude Christian belief. That's why Christians are growing by the hundreds of millions in China and Africa, and would probably grow more in India if Hindu nationalists were to lighten up a little. Paganism is pretty outdated, now that God has revealed himself. Why worship the created instead of the actual Creator?

[MaximiIian]

Pagan revivalists are completely different from "indigenous" pagans, such as Finno-Ugrics or East/South Asians. Most of the research I've read, which is pretty limited due to the small number of pagan revivalists, indicates that most of them don't really have any particular religious beliefs, they're generally just using paganism as a way to rebel against Christianity and/or conservative society.

Modern Pagans cover a very wide spectrum, but virtually all of them have some pretty close-held religious beliefs and practices.
The sense that you're getting, of there being no specific religious beliefs among Neopagans, is more because Neopaganism isn't a religion, it's a social, cultural, and quasi-religious movement. You're looking at it with the wrong expectations. It is an umbrella of several religions, who all have their own beliefs and practices but self-identify as being on the Modern Pagan continuum. If you look at Neopaganism as a whole, there's going to appear to be so much variety that you can't nail down any specific opinions they all share. But, as I said, that's the wrong way to go about it.
If you have further questions or concerns, I invite you to PM me. This is a subject that I not only have many years of personal experience with, but have studied academically as well.

[Prodromos]

Modern Pagans cover a very wide spectrum, but virtually all of them have some pretty close-held religious beliefs and practices.
The sense that you're getting, of there being no specific religious beliefs among Neopagans, is more because Neopaganism isn't a religion, it's a social, cultural, and quasi-religious movement. You're looking at it with the wrong expectations. It is an umbrella of several religions, who all have their own beliefs and practices but self-identify as being on the Modern Pagan continuum. If you look at Neopaganism as a whole, there's going to appear to be so much variety that you can't nail down any specific opinions they all share. But, as I said, that's the wrong way to go about it.
If you have further questions or concerns, I invite you to PM me. This is a subject that I not only have many years of personal experience with, but have studied academically as well.

We can talk here.

I was also using it as just a catch-all term for the various pagan movements, like Asatru, Wiccans, etc., each of which is obviously different. They appear to be mostly naturalist, there is very little supernaturalism in pagan movements, as compared to indigenous pagans like Hindus. So in that sense, it is not a system that has much to offer regarding making sense of reality (metaphysics), it's entirely contained within the physical world and is more similar to Scientology. There might be some official supernatural tenets for some pagan religions, but most pagan adherents don't really seem to actually believe them. That's why I consider it a subculture, or what's derogatively called "LARPing", instead of a religion.

I'm curious about the retention rates, if you have that information. What proportion of converts to paganism leave the religion within 5-20 years? All I found was that the retention rate for prisoners is very low, but in general it's low for every religion, so this doesn't tell us much. There are only about a million nominal pagan revivalists in the world, which means conversions are essential if they want to grow.

[Prodromos]

-

[MaximiIian]

They appear to be mostly naturalist, there is very little supernaturalism in pagan movements, as compared to indigenous pagans like Hindus.

Here you are very wrong. The vast majority of Neopagans and other Modern Pagans are polytheistic, believing in many distinct gods. They are "naturalist" in that they tend to view the natural world as sacred, stemming from animist views that are coupled with the polytheism. But that does not diminish the widespread belief in multiple gods and spirits, which is definitely a supernatural belief.

There are only about a million nominal pagan revivalists in the world

That's very outdated numbers, probably from the early 1990s. The numbers of just Wiccans in the US alone are over a million, even as recent as 2008. The worldwide population of Modern Pagans is probably upwards of 6 million, and that's a conservative estimate.

Historically, Modern Paganism has grown in spurts, "booms" so to speak; the number of Wiccans basically doubled between 1991 and 2000, and tripled between then and 2008. The thing is, you can map these spurts to major waves of publications regarding Paganism. The main way people were introduced to Paganism, aside from interaction with the community, was through bookstores that carried Occult and New Age subject matter, and magazines like Green Egg.
But the proliferation of the internet has likely changed those patterns. The constant availability to information, readily found, about Pagan practices and beliefs, as well as discussion forums, blogs, and podcasts has made Paganism significantly easier to access. It is not yet known what effect these phenomena have had on growth rates, but some people in the community suspect it may have changed the pattern to slow-and-steady growth rather than sharp bursts.
As far as retention rates-- there's no real data on it. I can only speak to experience, and to the consensus I've seen within the community. It's not infrequent that someone changes from one Pagan religion or "path" to another, but it does not appear to be often that people leave Paganism entirely.

[basics]

swabian,

Pray, what do I need a break for? What I wrote is what is written so I guess that is where the problem you appear to have with me stems from? To me and all them born of the Spirit of God we view that Word as being perfectly true at face value. There is only One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and only one way to Him and that is by the blood of Jesus Christ shed for all them that believe and are born again. Any other way is a false way to a false god or even no god at all so those that neglect the True Way is only going to end in tears. Now I'll have a wee nap.

[Heathen Hammer]

I think most Westerners fighting against these ideas today are Christians. The few non-Christians fighting against them tend to be at least culturally "Judeo-Christian." By and large most irreligious people, pagans included, generally support these ideas instead of fighting against them. Right-wing pagans are a small minority. Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

Not all Christians are the same, though. There are some Christians who support the Left, but most of them belong to dying "mainline" Protestant denominations or are liberal Catholics. They are not exactly orthodox Christians. Orthodox Jews, conservative Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and evangelical Protestantism are pretty much humanity's last best hope. But people generally should look to the afterlife, instead of looking for an ideology that will create a perfect world here. That rarely ends well.

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed, and I'm yet to see any evidence of some sort of organized push from Christian groups against the above-mentioned forces.

[MaximiIian]

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed.

Probably depends on the specific issue at hand, and the groups one is observing. The more ethnocentric or reconstructionist religions tend to be more conservative, as they are usually framed around traditionalism and a particular folk (like the video in the OP). When you get to Wicca, Druidism, and the more eclectic-Neopagan side of things, they have tended towards a (very general) leftism. It's not surprising, given that Neopaganism "came of age" (in the US and Britain at least) at the height of the Counterculture.

But even then, those are very broad strokes. I know plenty of Wiccans and Neopagans who are conservative, especially in Britain. I think it's been perceived as left-wing mostly because it has usually been progressive on a few particular issues, mainly environmentalism, LGBT rights, and women's rights. And the typically conservative and traditionalist branches, like reconstructionism, tend to be progressive on the rights of indigenous peoples, as well as being pretty conservationist. Like I said, it seems to depend on the specific issue at hand.

[basics]

Does it not seem strange that where communism has been it has failed yet here in the West the rise of socialism is growing stronger despite all the knowledge of these failures? Now some might argue that communism and socialism are two different things but are they really? Both entertain the idea that everyone is equal yet usually the leaders of these institutions earn a lot more than what they preach could ever materialise for ordinary Joe Bloggs. Christianity is their biggest enemy and so to eradicate God from the minds of the up and coming masses is the centrepoint of education today. Pagan cults are no problem because when big brother takes over these will only be flies in the ointment easily dealt with. The big question that remains for them is how to deal with Islam as as of now they are quite happy to utilise it for they are too scared to condemn it openly.

[Prodromos]

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed, and I'm yet to see any evidence of some sort of organized push from Christian groups against the above-mentioned forces.

When it comes to war, it's usually all right to delegate this task to the secular authorities. Militarized holy orders are unnecessary today. Western military forces are generally doing an effective job of waging war, and Christians are well-represented among "combat troops." So just because Christian armies don't exist, doesn't mean secular armies aren't made up of Christians.

When it comes to immorality at home, though, that is inherent to all humans and you can't solve it all by violence. Even if you killed all immoral people today, it will only buy you 20 years before the next generation of immoral people grows up. The best way of fighting this immorality, is by being the change you want to see in the world. That means living virtuously, raising children and protecting them from immoral influences, and building up your community via charity and voting for conservative representatives. Behind most efforts to do this, are orthodox Christians/Jews and maybe old-school pagans like Hindus. Mostly irreligious people and neopagans are fighting against these things, not for them.

Surveys on this are limited due to the small number of pagans, but in general the vast majority of pagans are liberal women rebelling against society's traditional morals. "Heathens", or Germanic pagans, are one of the very few exceptions; 60% are male. Even among Heathens, though, liberals still outnumber traditionalists. The traditionalist Heathens are a minority. But again surveys about this are limited since there are only a few dozen thousand Heathens.

There are a few liberal Christian denominations, but in reality they're pagan or atheist. They might openly identify as Christian but their words and actions show utter disdain for Christianity. They're actually considered a bit of a joke by orthodox Christians. Liberal Christian denominations are rapidly dying while conservative churches are growing.

Christians are the most traditionalist, conservative, and nationalist religious group. People unaffiliated with a traditional faith, as well as New Age/pagan types, are pretty left-wing, and usually a cause and symptom of the decay of Western society, rather than a cure to it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A 2015 survey of the Heathen community nevertheless found that a greater percentage of Heathens were opposed to traditional gender rules than in favour of them, with this being particularly the case in Northern Europe.[114]

Among these Druids, 35.5% were registered independents, 31% Democrats, 5.1% Libertarians, 4.6% Republicans, and 3.6% Greens.[137]

In 1995, Kyle stated that on the whole, New Agers in the United States preferred the values of the Democratic Party over those of the Republican Party. He added that most New Agers "soundly rejected" the agenda of former Republican President Ronald Reagan.[267]

Sutcliffe noted that although most influential New Age figureheads were male,[251] approximately two-thirds of its participants were female.[252]

He suggested that the movement appealed to many former practitioners of the 1960s counter-culture because while they came to feel that they were unable to change society, they were nonetheless interested in changing the self.[257] He believed that many individuals had been "culturally primed for what the New Age has to offer",[258] with the New Age attracting "expressive" people who were already comfortable with the ideals and outlooks of the movement's self-spirituality focus.[259] It could be particularly appealing because the New Age suited the needs of the individual, whereas traditional religious options that are available primarily catered for the needs of a community.[260]

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...amily/new-age/

Progressive girls childishly rebelling against traditional morals aren't gonna save the West. We need morality, chivalry, toughness, and dedication to a higher cause. i.e. Christianity.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[MaximiIian]

Progressive girls childishly rebelling against traditional morals aren't gonna save the West.

When traditional morality and its reinforcement of patriarchal self-destruction and inequality is what's destroying the West in the first place...they very well might.