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Thread: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

  1. #121

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Not aware of Evola, a quick Google reveals him to be an admirer of Himmler and the SS. If he advocated rape he can get stuffed, and his supporters with him.
    Um, source? And the claim that he advocated rape has been debunked as well.
    https://www.counter-currents.com/201...bsolute-woman/
    Sounds like one of the those moaning traditionalists who think their imagined perfect past can be restored if they just kill enough brown people/white people/women/men/political opponents whatever.
    Again, where does he say that?
    Anyone suggesting Hellenic society was in decline when Socrates killed himself "to own the Libs" seems uninformed. Hellenic civilisation triumphed totally over Rome both before and after the battle of Dogshead pass, for all the Roman pretence that they didn't really like Greek ways.

    The vicious inhumanity of Sparta was rotting out, the Stagirite was about to take a tutoring position for a world conqueror up north, and the spread of the light of Hellas was only just beginning. On the down side Plato was about to waffle up a silly philosophy of how chaps from good families should be in charge, and wasn't Socrates just the best, he owned the Libs didn't he? Why do these elitists cook up fake histories and phoney cosmogonies for their woman hating racist ways?
    Again, nothing to do with reality. Hellenic civilization fell (it did reach its zenith, but long before the times of Socrates, and vicious inhumanity of Sparta" was partially the reason why it happened altogether), mainly due to same factors that caused later Rome's demise and are looming towards our civilization as well.

  2. #122
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    On the down side Plato was about to waffle up a silly philosophy of how chaps from good families should be in charge
    Ahh that's rather what Aristotle though. At his most radical Plato's tyranny was one of finding both men and women to be educated to be the elite admittedly of a totalitarian state. You know his confidence that women could be educated equally was fairly interesting - he mentions successful female doctors in Athens on a couple occasions (and they did exist and successful Athenian female bar owners - and they are attested by archeology). If he had turned left and become a play writer and or rhetor its interesting where he could have lead the democracy with his vision of state education. The Athenians already got to the point of commercial courts (not the more traditional civil ones however but progress is rarely fast) where everyone could get justice on there own (slaves, women, foreigners) by the 4th century and also doing things like the law Hybris which meant in public nobody had the right to abuse anyone. Dinarchus notably pointed out the law had used execute citizens for rape (of foreign prostitute), false slavery of free foreigners on several occasions. An intellectual force like Plato might well have convinced the Assembly to make Arstophanes's jokes a reality. Too bad he buried himself as The Athenian Stranger.

    Evola - and yes I wasted my time reading his books - He is second rate maybe third rate backbench material. Plato at least proposed a tyranny of meritocracy. Evola proposes a cookie cutter caste system based of nebulous religious BS randomly selected across history and a mass of people are cattle and need enervated by a great man. Oh and don't forget women are irrational and emotional and can never understand logic.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Um, source? And the claim that he advocated rape has been debunked as well.
    https://www.counter-currents.com/201...bsolute-woman/
    Thank you for the informative link. His writings are clearly woolly New Age tripe, with sexism prominent. His absurd claim that all women lie because its in their nature is just puerile stupidity. Crapping on about "Aryan men" and pariahs reveals the depth of his ignorance: Aryan refers properly to a language, not a race as so many inferior pseudo scientists and racists like to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Again, nothing to do with reality. Hellenic civilization fell (it did reach its zenith, but long before the times of Socrates, and vicious inhumanity of Sparta" was partially the reason why it happened altogether), mainly due to same factors that caused later Rome's demise and are looming towards our civilization as well.
    Pretty sure this point has been addressed. Hellenic culture spread further and deeper under Makedonian and Roman rule than under the Spartan duarchy or the Athenian isonomy or democracy. Its cultural flowering at Alexandria, Antioch and Konstantinopolis Nea Roma remains a testament to human achievement.

    Much of Hellas' best work was done under foreign rule, before and after Soctrates death eg three of the Seven Sages of Greece lived under Lydian rule (including Thales of Miletus) and IIRC so did Heraclitus (not a Sage butarguably the greatest of the Hellenic thinkers) so I don't see how conquest by Rome was any sign of decline in their civilisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Ahh that's rather what Aristotle though. At his most radical Plato's tyranny was one of finding both men and women to be educated to be the elite admittedly of a totalitarian state. You know his confidence that women could be educated equally was fairly interesting - he mentions successful female doctors in Athens on a couple occasions (and they did exist and successful Athenian female bar owners - and they are attested by archeology). If he had turned left and become a play writer and or rhetor its interesting where he could have lead the democracy with his vision of state education. The Athenians already got to the point of commercial courts (not the more traditional civil ones however but progress is rarely fast) where everyone could get justice on there own (slaves, women, foreigners) by the 4th century and also doing things like the law Hybris which meant in public nobody had the right to abuse anyone. Dinarchus notably pointed out the law had used execute citizens for rape (of foreign prostitute), false slavery of free foreigners on several occasions. An intellectual force like Plato might well have convinced the Assembly to make Arstophanes's jokes a reality. Too bad he buried himself as The Athenian Stranger.
    Thx for the correction, very informative. More than three decades since I studied philosophy, and its clear my memory has faded.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Evola - and yes I wasted my time reading his books - He is second rate maybe third rate backbench material. Plato at least proposed a tyranny of meritocracy. Evola proposes a cookie cutter caste system based of nebulous religious BS randomly selected across history and a mass of people are cattle and need enervated by a great man. Oh and don't forget women are irrational and emotional and can never understand logic.
    Sad, such a lot of waffle and New Age hocus pocus. I guess he was overwhelmed by the superiority of Indian philosophy but like so many inferior minds he just couldn't make sense of it all. Did he believe in chakras?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #124
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Sad, such a lot of waffle and New Age hocus pocus. I guess he was overwhelmed by the superiority of Indian philosophy but like so many inferior minds he just couldn't make sense of it all. Did he believe in chakras?
    Yes and no, he did as I say cherry pick ideals from across any potential Western/Aryran culture. Just the ones that support Great man + Caste + women are silly and emotional. Add in a dose anti Semitic rants, and strong anti democracy and well can see where it leads. But he does have a list of ideals plucked from India, in same way he plucks ideals out of Roman history, ignores the bits of Greek philosophy (or history) he does not like etc.

    -----

    Thx for the correction, very informative. More than three decades since I studied philosophy, and its clear my memory has faded.
    You know on reflection I kinda called Evola warmed over Plato - but that was insult to the Athenian. Evola is warmed over Aristotle. Plato was truly revolutionary. It is funny the utterly revolutionary Democracy should produce a man who can develop a truly scary absolute state that might have worked.

    Just follow up on my post about Plato I recalled a really good summation of the Republic. The comparison following is that of Aristotle defending the traditional society as he saw it - the good being a oligarchy or Monarchy in refutation of Plato.

    "(and, perhaps, as a mathematically rather than a
    biologically oriented thinker) Plato is not so concerned to preserve the
    natural at all costs. The 'real' world is not to be found in the observable
    phenomena of nature or the society he lives in. Thus, if he is
    unhappy with government as he knows it, Plato will smash the current
    one and invent a better. If he dislikes the religion and mythology he
    finds around him, he will invent better gods and myths out of whole
    cloth. If he feels the mass of mankind are unhappy and behave like
    brutes, he will bring every possible cultural influence to bear on
    molding, curbing and changing their 'natural' instincts. If he dislikes
    women as he finds them, he is willing to try changing them"

    Wender, Dorothea. “PLATO: MISOGYNIST, PAEDOPHILE, AND FEMINIST.” Arethusa, vol. 6, no. 1, 1973, pp. 75–90. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/26307464.

    Plato's world at his most visionary is a world of remorseless tracking, tradition is failure. The state will figure out what each citizen is best at and then that is what they will do. Plato had no time for myths like Pandora or Eve or Lilith - an exceptional women is always better than an sub par man at whatever the job is . Evola is rife with women being emotional ill logical and such and he uses the same terms for democracy. Plato's republic is also not the Great Mans state of Evola where the drone masses need can only vitalized by one man. The Guardians are a senate, selected not caste or birth or myth mumbo jumbo but on merit (and being an Athenian Plato could help adding scrupulous reviews while holding the office*). Maybe Plato is a symbol of decline as HH sees it but he would have nothing but distaste for Evola's week attempt to defend tradition. Plato might not have liked the Democracy but he he disliked the alternatives more and his goal was to make something better. Not wet nurse Alexander or defend Sparta.


    *Never forget the ring of Gyges. Plato is solid that secrecy or lack over site is the path to corruption. The guardians may be the best to rule but well he did not trust in closed doors and he likely would be horrified by the US cold war state of executive privilege and top secret designations.
    Last edited by conon394; September 20, 2018 at 09:18 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #125

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Thank you for the informative link. His writings are clearly woolly New Age tripe, with sexism prominent. His absurd claim that all women lie because its in their nature is just puerile stupidity. Crapping on about "Aryan men" and pariahs reveals the depth of his ignorance: Aryan refers properly to a language, not a race as so many inferior pseudo scientists and racists like to believe.
    He clearly does not imply that women are inferior, hence why "sexism" here is just another dumb childish buzzword.
    Pretty sure this point has been addressed. Hellenic culture spread further and deeper under Makedonian and Roman rule than under the Spartan duarchy or the Athenian isonomy or democracy. Its cultural flowering at Alexandria, Antioch and Konstantinopolis Nea Roma remains a testament to human achievement.

    Much of Hellas' best work was done under foreign rule, before and after Soctrates death eg three of the Seven Sages of Greece lived under Lydian rule (including Thales of Miletus) and IIRC so did Heraclitus (not a Sage butarguably the greatest of the Hellenic thinkers) so I don't see how conquest by Rome was any sign of decline in their civilisation.
    I don't think you understand difference between culture and civilization. Military prowess is just as important as its intellectual counter-part. Hence why Hellenic civilization declined due to lack of former, while Golden Horde and various Islamic empires fell due to the lack of latter.
    Obviously when another power conquers you by brain and brawl, it is a sign of civilizational decline.
    All in all, it seems like a lot of uneducated (based on tendency to use Google search and thinking that's enough to understand a whole library of ideas that encompass several major subjects) "progressive" folks are quite triggered by revival of Indo-European spirituality (or its rejection of silly belief in illusion of "progress"), hence various childish insults at scholars such as Evola via taking quotes out of context

  6. #126
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    He clearly does not imply that women are inferior, hence why "sexism" here is just another dumb childish buzzword.
    He rather does imply that about women over and over and about the mass of people as well. They (both) can't understand logic and thus cannot rule. His jolly bloody body of drivel is based on caste and getting to the rule of one great man period and how great that was back in the day when Evola surly would have been great if nasty democracy was not keeping him out of power and sneering at him.

    " The truth is that democratisation depends upon an optimistic but totally gratuitous presupposition. It does not at all take into account the absolutely irrational character of the psychology of the masses. As we have already indicated above, in our discussion of “power ideas”, the mass is influenced not by reason, but buy enthusiasm, emotion, and suggestion. Like a little girl, it follows anyone who best knows how to fascinate it, by scaring it, or alluring it, using means which are void of logic. Like a woman, it is inconsistent, and passes from one thing to the next, without such a transition explicable by a rational law or progressive process. Particularly, that idea of “progress”, referring not to the simple realisation that things become better or worse form the material point of view, but referring instead to the transition from a material standard to a higher standard, is a Western superstition which has arisen from the Jacobin ideology, against which we can never react energetically enough. Instead, to the extent it is possible to speak of self-government of the masses, and to the extent that the right of election and sanction can be left to the general public, then all that may or may not be true; instead, the ”people” can be considered as a single intelligence, a sa single great being, living a single, actual, conscious and rational life. But this is a pure optimistic myth, which no social or historical consideration confirms, and which was invented only by a race of servants, impatient with true leaders, who sought a mask for their anarchic pretension to be able to do everything by themselves and for their rebellious will."

    Look misogyny and and a simplistic attack on democracy all at once. Oh yes and a royal we. Sorry real scientists when writing a paper with many collaborators or even Plato when describing the consensus of a dialogue can use 'we'. Second rate Italian fascists just look well like pretentious gits imaging a past that they would be the elite
    Last edited by conon394; September 20, 2018 at 12:29 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #127

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    He rather does imply that about women over and over and about the mass of people as well. They (both) can't understand logic and thus cannot rule. His jolly bloody body of drivel is based on caste and getting to the rule of one great man period and how great that was back in the day when Evola surly would have been great if nasty democracy was not keeping him out of power and sneering at him.
    So basically what you are saying is that Evola's ideas being based on logic and reason are wrong, because they lack emotional arguments that proponents of so-called "progress" are using? I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. Evola is just observing and summarizing, but I already understood that your knowledge of his works is rather skewed and I'm throwing pearls here.

  8. #128
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    based on logic and reason are wrong
    He kinda explicitly says his ideals are not based on logic and reason but a cherry picking effort to defend a mythic past. Plato is what you get with logic and reason.

    Evola is just observing and summarizing, but I already understood that your knowledge of his works is rather skewed and I'm throwing pearls here.
    He selectively observes. He provides no logical study of say his denunciation of democracy vs his whatever made up caste based traditional society he has an erection for. Noting for me to believe his flaccid prose. No metrics. Some measure of good or bad decisions, how well the average person lived - no just a second rate defense of how it used to better for the right sort of person, wink, wink, nudge nudge.

    But this is a pure optimistic myth, which no social or historical consideration confirms, and which was invented only by a race of servants, impatient with true leaders, who sought a mask for their anarchic pretension to be able to do everything by themselves and for their rebellious will."
    I would assert the man who can write that failed to observe the Athenian democracy.
    Last edited by conon394; September 21, 2018 at 11:22 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #129

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    He kinda explicitly says his ideals are not based on logic and reason but a cherry picking effort to defend a mythic past. Plato is what you get with logic and reason.
    How is it cherry picking?
    He selectively observes. He provides no logical study of say his denunciation of democracy vs his whatever made up caste based traditional society he has an erection for. Noting for me to believe his flaccid prose. No metrics. Some measure of good or bad decisions, how well the average person lived - no just a second rate defense of how it used to better for the right sort of person, wink, wink, nudge nudge.
    Again, he just observed and summarized known historical events in various Indo-European civilizations. Some are just unhappy because his conclusions (which are, again, based on known historical events) don't go along with one's primitive Walmart "liberal-democratic" values. As a result, such folks can't argue against such events happening, or the rather logical conclusion JE makes, and as a result spout childish meaningless buzzwords: "racist", Fascist", "misogynist", etc.
    I would assert the man who can write that failed to observe the Athenian democracy.
    If you think that Athenian democracy has anything to do with silly modern beliefs in egalitarianism, you are the one doing cherry picking.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    To start, all of us are aware that we are nowhere near the intelligence of Plato. So, what is Politics? Or, what is Man? Is there a measure for every man, besides the usual, like peeing, and dying?

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    To start, all of us are aware that we are nowhere near the intelligence of Plato. So, what is Politics? Or, what is Man? Is there a measure for every man, besides the usual, like peeing, and dying?
    That is true. After all, I'm waaaaaaaaaay smarter than Plato.
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

  12. #132
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Why is such great store placed at the feet of a man who believed in gods? Jesus of Nazareth left more for mankind than any philosopher yet there are very few on these threads who give any credence to what He said or did. His legacy may be denied but the same power in His Name not only changes lives but heals the sick just as it has always done since the beginning of the world. Is there any philosopher who can beat that?

  13. #133
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Jesus of Nazareth left more for mankind than any philosopher yet there are very few on these threads who give any credence to what He said or did. His legacy may be denied but the same power in His Name not only changes lives but heals the sick just as it has always done since the beginning of the world. Is there any philosopher who can beat that?
    Well technically he did not leave anything, like Socrates he is a mostly a creation of his disciples. A magnetic personality certainly, but still to be honest the creation of his Apologists.

    just as it has always done since the beginning of the world
    You know I really can't recall his name healing the sick in the OT.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #134

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Why is such great store placed at the feet of a man who believed in gods? Jesus of Nazareth left more for mankind than any philosopher yet there are very few on these threads who give any credence to what He said or did. His legacy may be denied but the same power in His Name not only changes lives but heals the sick just as it has always done since the beginning of the world. Is there any philosopher who can beat that?
    The Sages who inspired Jesus, for he was also Man therefore he needed human inspiration, and probably found inspiration in reading or pondering over old philosophies or understanding what the old sages before him meant.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    fkizz,

    Not possible as Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting meaning that he was before any sages.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well technically he did not leave anything, like Socrates he is a mostly a creation of his disciples.
    Less, really. Socrates is at least attested by Aristophanes, who depicting him in his comedic plays, during Socrates' lifetime.
    Jesus? Not even his disciples, but their secretaries probably, a generation later, are the only contemporaneous attestations.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Fair, also I ignored a side reference from Aeschines in a trial later in the 4th century. I was a bit free. On total I don't think that makes the case that neither man existed but it does raise the question of who they were and who their followers wanted them to be. I just think its instructive to consider Socrates. Say at his his trial we have Plato's masterpiece of the Apology - which after reading if you are not ready to vote the man innocent and buy him a beer err nice Median red you are inhuman. But we have from Xenophon a bitter man, and from others a man who stood mute and raised no defense. And that is just is friends - not his enemies (mostly lost). All of them writing for a audience in Athens where 501 living jury members still lived, and the trial of such a public figure would have drawn in a huge audience.

    In any case don't forget Josephus does note Jesus, although it clear he is not impressed or converted.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Less, really. Socrates is at least attested by Aristophanes, who depicting him in his comedic plays, during Socrates' lifetime.
    Jesus? Not even his disciples, but their secretaries probably, a generation later, are the only contemporaneous attestations.
    MaximiIian,

    On the third day some of the disciples met Him and in a few days over four hundred could say the same. Forty days later at Pentecost three thousand odd souls were converted and saved amongst those many from other parts of the world so it follows that when they got to their homes many others would know all about the events that they witnessed. So little house groups sprung up all over and in that progress we read that letters were being sent backwards and forwards with them still in Jerusalem. Therefore there wasn't any great time gap as the word spread. Since most of these visitors to Jerusalem were Jewish I maintain that the letters they would originally receive would be in Hebrew certainly not Greek until that is the Gentile numbers increased over their Jewish brethren. That is why I insist that the Greek scrolls on which we use as the originals weren't in fact the originals at all, them being lost as the churches became predominately Gentile.

  19. #139
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    MaximiIian,

    On the third day some of the disciples met Him and in a few days over four hundred could say the same. Forty days later at Pentecost three thousand odd souls were converted and saved amongst those many from other parts of the world so it follows that when they got to their homes many others would know all about the events that they witnessed. So little house groups sprung up all over and in that progress we read that letters were being sent backwards and forwards with them still in Jerusalem. Therefore there wasn't any great time gap as the word spread. Since most of these visitors to Jerusalem were Jewish I maintain that the letters they would originally receive would be in Hebrew certainly not Greek until that is the Gentile numbers increased over their Jewish brethren. That is why I insist that the Greek scrolls on which we use as the originals weren't in fact the originals at all, them being lost as the churches became predominately Gentile.
    Which does not alter the point - Jesus acts and teachings exits only via second hand statements
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #140
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Which does not alter the point - Jesus acts and teachings exits only via second hand statements
    conon394,

    Via eyewitness statements my friend which would stand up in any court of law. You are one of His acts since He is your Creator, the very same Creator who held Adam to account, who walked with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob, parted the Red sea as well as the Jordan. Oh the list is endless and one day He will raise up all your sages as well as us to give judgement on our behaviour towards Him, the living God. All existence is His legacy and one doesn't have to be brainy to be part of it.

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