A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

[Aexodus]

Came across this video of a discussion I found very interesting indeed. Would love to hear some thoughts on it.

A large theme of the video is traditionalism, within the definition that it isn't simply something in favour of mindless continuation of random traditions. Instead, traditionalism would be the belief that all traditions are part of one 'truth', with each cultural tradition specific to a particular perspective of a people of the world. That the contents of the culture, the tradition aren't as important as how strongly and passionately it is believed in. This is what distinguishes it from Conservatism, which seeks to preserve simply for the sake of something's familiarity. People should have their own traditions, be able to reform and change them if needed, but shouldn't en masse adopt the culture of someone else completely, else lose their own identity.


For example, Islam and it's adherents can be admired for the strong identity it gives, and fervour to defend it many Muslims have, an ideal seemingly forgotten in The West. That within western countries, a certain spirituality has been lost, which makes it easier for other neighbouring cultures to absorb it. Indeed, religious conversion can often cause unnecessary tension and weaken a culture. The Dalai Lama said 'If a western man converts to Buddhism, what happens to his Christian family?'


They also touch on the Cheddar man controversy, making the point that dark skin doesn't equal an ethnic African, and the media's darkening of the skin in pictures and pushing the 'black European' narrative instead of him being a 'European with darker skin' The closest people today to the hunter-gatherer today are in Estonia. "If you give an Estonian dark skin you don't get an African, you get a dark skinned Estonian". The whole narrative has been fabricated to form a sentiment among Europeans that their history is not legitimate, that they are all somehow African and not European.


While I admire the desire for metaphysical ideals, I don't believe they should take precedence over any and every other aspect of someone's life. Rather, they should be used as a way to ensure your own virtue with strong principles that yet don't impede on your way of life.

[basics]

Aexodus,

Now you know why the UK voted to get out of Europe plus the disaster Sweden is bringing to its people. Hate being disparaging but would you let your daughter go out with either of them? Added that just to stir the pot and get a conversation going.

[Prodromos]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

[Heathen Hammer]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

The whole notion of European "pagans" as rowdy barbarians in horned helmets, who did nothing but pillage and rape is purely 1800s Romanticist myth.
In reality, for example, Scandinavians of Dark Ages were mostly traders who were rather advanced in fields like sea navigation and metallurgy. Not to mention that Greco-Roman civilization was pagan for most of its existence, which didn't prevent it from its tremendous achievements. Original Christianity, before Constantine was a rather primitive cult, which only gained spiritual and cultural depth after centuries of influence by both Greco-Roman and later Germanic culture, which were inherently pagan. Its adoption was not, in fact, due to supposed superiority of Christian ideals, but rather convenience for rulers of that time, providing them with economic and political benefits, while population itself adopted that religion merely symbolically, as multitude of practices in European Christianity were simply carbon copies of pagan rituals and practices.
Granted, one can't deny the relatively positive role that some aspects of Christianity played in Indo-European civilization, primarily resistance to Islamic conquests. However, it was in decline since reformation and "enlightenment" begun. And what of Christianity in Europe, and West in general, today? There is no pan-Christian movement to resist globalism, neoliberalism, marxism or Islam (despite these forces being openly hostile to ideals that Judeo-Christians supposedly represents), instead we see Pope who wants Europeans to accept mass immigration and evangelicals who care more about Israel then about their own countries. Unless some major reformation occurs, I don't see how Christianity would help Europeans overcome these forces and reclaim their homelands, on the other hand, growing interest and research in purely Indo-European spirituality can play quite the influential role in it.
After all, since people who support above-mentioned anti-European ideologies hate European paganism for a reason.

[basics]

The problem that most people seem to have is that Christianity is supposed to be a huge conglomerate that takes over the world yet in Jesus' own words, the pathway is so narrow that few ever get in to the Kingdom He preached about. Indeed the path begins with rebirth and that by the Spirit of God something that most so-called Christian systems believe to be the sprinkling of water on babes or even adults. They seem to ignore that the Baptist said that what he did was nothing but a preparation for what Jesus would do and what the Holy Spirit would seal. Therefore to them it is numbers that count and that can be said of all the religions on this planet with the exception of all them that have been born again of the Spirit of God. So, in the end times there is going to be a one world system that most will adhere to regardless of what they once believed and to harness the Jews into it there is to be a messianic figure called the false prophet who will declare that he is their messiah. When that time comes and it has started already it is a sign of the real Jesus Christ's return for the final downfall of all His enemies.

[swabian]

@basics: Maybe you should just take a break? Have a nap?

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

The wares they trafficed were mostly Irish people of course, apart from Slavs.

[Heathen Hammer]

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

The wares they trafficed were mostly Irish people of course, apart from Slavs.

Christian kingdoms of that time did the same thing. What's your point?

[basics]

swabian,

Pray, what do I need a break for? What I wrote is what is written so I guess that is where the problem you appear to have with me stems from? To me and all them born of the Spirit of God we view that Word as being perfectly true at face value. There is only One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and only one way to Him and that is by the blood of Jesus Christ shed for all them that believe and are born again. Any other way is a false way to a false god or even no god at all so those that neglect the True Way is only going to end in tears. Now I'll have a wee nap.

[Prodromos]

Granted, one can't deny the relatively positive role that some aspects of Christianity played in Indo-European civilization, primarily resistance to Islamic conquests. However, it was in decline since reformation and "enlightenment" begun. And what of Christianity in Europe, and West in general, today? There is no pan-Christian movement to resist globalism, neoliberalism, marxism or Islam (despite these forces being openly hostile to ideals that Judeo-Christians supposedly represents), instead we see Pope who wants Europeans to accept mass immigration and evangelicals who care more about Israel then about their own countries. Unless some major reformation occurs, I don't see how Christianity would help Europeans overcome these forces and reclaim their homelands, on the other hand, growing interest and research in purely Indo-European spirituality can play quite the influential role in it.
After all, since people who support above-mentioned anti-European ideologies hate European paganism for a reason.

I think most Westerners fighting against these ideas today are Christians. The few non-Christians fighting against them tend to be at least culturally "Judeo-Christian." By and large most irreligious people, pagans included, generally support these ideas instead of fighting against them. Right-wing pagans are a small minority. Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

Not all Christians are the same, though. There are some Christians who support the Left, but most of them belong to dying "mainline" Protestant denominations or are liberal Catholics. They are not exactly orthodox Christians. Orthodox Jews, conservative Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and evangelical Protestantism are pretty much humanity's last best hope. But people generally should look to the afterlife, instead of looking for an ideology that will create a perfect world here. That rarely ends well.

[Logios]

@hammer: Do you know where the city of Dublin comes from? It was formerly a meaningless dump at the Irish coast, until the Norvegians arrived there. Within a couple of years, it then became the most important market for slave trade in the entirety of Medieval Europe, even down to the Mediterranian.

Fixed that for you. Those holding the quill to the parchment were probably not inclined to write anything positive about any counterparts believing in gods different from their own. Archeological evidence - like what was found in the Wood Quay area (before the digs had to be stopped because of the city development) however shows a different picture. Ironically those in favour of city development over acheological digs used the "slave trader" argument for why the archeological digs were not supposed to be important, and what was eventually found ironically spoke against that.

Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

In your own head or what? My belief in the Gods highly disqualifies me as an atheist - do you really not see the contradiction of terms here? Ok, maybe we don't usually invite a lot of official surveyors to do official surveys on us, but is that really the base of your oh so high doubt? We are just regular people honoring the Gods - no left, right or against anyone included.

[Prodromos]

In your own head or what? My belief in the Gods highly disqualifies me as an atheist - do you really not see the contradiction of terms here? Ok, maybe we don't usually invite a lot of official surveyors to do official surveys on us, but is that really the base of your oh so high doubt? We are just regular people honoring the Gods - no left, right or against anyone included.

Pagan revivalists are completely different from "indigenous" pagans, such as Finno-Ugrics or East/South Asians. Most of the research I've read, which is pretty limited due to the small number of pagan revivalists, indicates that most of them don't really have any particular religious beliefs, they're generally just using paganism as a way to rebel against Christianity and/or conservative society. They tend to be pretty heavily defined by the political and libertine lifestyle aspects of paganism, the religious aspects are completely ignored and an afterthought. The demographics also skew fairly overwhelmingly either male or female and either young or middle aged, depending which religion. So I'm not sure pagan revivalists are an actual pagan religion, it seems to be just a subculture like hipsters or goths.

Don't put a hex on me, pls. I think almost any religion contains at least some truth. Christianity is just more true than any other belief system. Pagans usually convert easily to Christianity because pagan religions rarely preclude Christian belief. That's why Christians are growing by the hundreds of millions in China and Africa, and would probably grow more in India if Hindu nationalists were to lighten up a little. Paganism is pretty outdated, now that God has revealed himself. Why worship the created instead of the actual Creator?

[Heathen Hammer]

I think most Westerners fighting against these ideas today are Christians. The few non-Christians fighting against them tend to be at least culturally "Judeo-Christian." By and large most irreligious people, pagans included, generally support these ideas instead of fighting against them. Right-wing pagans are a small minority. Most pagan movements are basically leftist atheists/agnostics who don't stand for anything but only against Christianity. I pretty highly doubt they actually believe in the religious aspects of paganism, but who knows. Surveys about this are limited.

Not all Christians are the same, though. There are some Christians who support the Left, but most of them belong to dying "mainline" Protestant denominations or are liberal Catholics. They are not exactly orthodox Christians. Orthodox Jews, conservative Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and evangelical Protestantism are pretty much humanity's last best hope. But people generally should look to the afterlife, instead of looking for an ideology that will create a perfect world here. That rarely ends well.

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed, and I'm yet to see any evidence of some sort of organized push from Christian groups against the above-mentioned forces.

[MaximiIian]

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed.

Probably depends on the specific issue at hand, and the groups one is observing. The more ethnocentric or reconstructionist religions tend to be more conservative, as they are usually framed around traditionalism and a particular folk (like the video in the OP). When you get to Wicca, Druidism, and the more eclectic-Neopagan side of things, they have tended towards a (very general) leftism. It's not surprising, given that Neopaganism "came of age" (in the US and Britain at least) at the height of the Counterculture.

But even then, those are very broad strokes. I know plenty of Wiccans and Neopagans who are conservative, especially in Britain. I think it's been perceived as left-wing mostly because it has usually been progressive on a few particular issues, mainly environmentalism, LGBT rights, and women's rights. And the typically conservative and traditionalist branches, like reconstructionism, tend to be progressive on the rights of indigenous peoples, as well as being pretty conservationist. Like I said, it seems to depend on the specific issue at hand.

[Prodromos]

Is there any evidence to assertion that majority of pagans are left-wing? Its definitely not something I observed, and I'm yet to see any evidence of some sort of organized push from Christian groups against the above-mentioned forces.

When it comes to war, it's usually all right to delegate this task to the secular authorities. Militarized holy orders are unnecessary today. Western military forces are generally doing an effective job of waging war, and Christians are well-represented among "combat troops." So just because Christian armies don't exist, doesn't mean secular armies aren't made up of Christians.

When it comes to immorality at home, though, that is inherent to all humans and you can't solve it all by violence. Even if you killed all immoral people today, it will only buy you 20 years before the next generation of immoral people grows up. The best way of fighting this immorality, is by being the change you want to see in the world. That means living virtuously, raising children and protecting them from immoral influences, and building up your community via charity and voting for conservative representatives. Behind most efforts to do this, are orthodox Christians/Jews and maybe old-school pagans like Hindus. Mostly irreligious people and neopagans are fighting against these things, not for them.

Surveys on this are limited due to the small number of pagans, but in general the vast majority of pagans are liberal women rebelling against society's traditional morals. "Heathens", or Germanic pagans, are one of the very few exceptions; 60% are male. Even among Heathens, though, liberals still outnumber traditionalists. The traditionalist Heathens are a minority. But again surveys about this are limited since there are only a few dozen thousand Heathens.

There are a few liberal Christian denominations, but in reality they're pagan or atheist. They might openly identify as Christian but their words and actions show utter disdain for Christianity. They're actually considered a bit of a joke by orthodox Christians. Liberal Christian denominations are rapidly dying while conservative churches are growing.

Christians are the most traditionalist, conservative, and nationalist religious group. People unaffiliated with a traditional faith, as well as New Age/pagan types, are pretty left-wing, and usually a cause and symptom of the decay of Western society, rather than a cure to it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A 2015 survey of the Heathen community nevertheless found that a greater percentage of Heathens were opposed to traditional gender rules than in favour of them, with this being particularly the case in Northern Europe.[114]

Among these Druids, 35.5% were registered independents, 31% Democrats, 5.1% Libertarians, 4.6% Republicans, and 3.6% Greens.[137]

In 1995, Kyle stated that on the whole, New Agers in the United States preferred the values of the Democratic Party over those of the Republican Party. He added that most New Agers "soundly rejected" the agenda of former Republican President Ronald Reagan.[267]

Sutcliffe noted that although most influential New Age figureheads were male,[251] approximately two-thirds of its participants were female.[252]

He suggested that the movement appealed to many former practitioners of the 1960s counter-culture because while they came to feel that they were unable to change society, they were nonetheless interested in changing the self.[257] He believed that many individuals had been "culturally primed for what the New Age has to offer",[258] with the New Age attracting "expressive" people who were already comfortable with the ideals and outlooks of the movement's self-spirituality focus.[259] It could be particularly appealing because the New Age suited the needs of the individual, whereas traditional religious options that are available primarily catered for the needs of a community.[260]

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...amily/new-age/

Progressive girls childishly rebelling against traditional morals aren't gonna save the West. We need morality, chivalry, toughness, and dedication to a higher cause. i.e. Christianity.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Aexodus]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

Indeed, I agree. At times contrary to what they both say at times, paganism is not the foundation of the West, and would return us to a pre-medieval belief system, one which I don't think any significant amount of people want. However, the decline of Christian faith is something that perhaps can be replaced with a more general spirituality in one's life, which may or may indeed not be pagan inspired. I don't think I've heard of the comparison between Paganism and Islam before, but then again both are diametrically opposed to the Christian tradition of 'meekness ' and forgiveness unto one another. Mercy is one of the ideals that took the West to the civilisation it is today, sometimes raw strength of will in an ideology isn't always the best in a society.

[Prodromos]

Indeed, I agree. At times contrary to what they both say at times, paganism is not the foundation of the West, and would return us to a pre-medieval belief system, one which I don't think any significant amount of people want. However, the decline of Christian faith is something that perhaps can be replaced with a more general spirituality in one's life, which may or may indeed not be pagan inspired. I don't think I've heard of the comparison between Paganism and Islam before, but then again both are diametrically opposed to the Christian tradition of 'meekness ' and forgiveness unto one another. Mercy is one of the ideals that took the West to the civilisation it is today, sometimes raw strength of will in an ideology isn't always the best in a society.

I think that is considered "pagan." It's simply worship of the created world, rather than the creator, which I'm not sure if it's sufficient to defeat the barbarians at the gates. There's always been people with "spiritual but not Christian" belief systems before, but at least it was based on a Christian morality. A spiritual society that rejects Christianity would be easy to conquer, I think, because society would collapse from within. You need Christian virtue to build a solid foundation for society. Prosperity at home is necessary to defeat the enemy abroad.

Islam is "pagan" in the technical sense of the word. Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness. Fighting one evil using another evil isn't very productive. We already have a clear guide for defeating evil in this life and the next, we just need to be smart enough to give it a shot.

It's unsurprising that in the face of outside aggression, some have turned to ancient paganism for defense and motivation; they associate it with moral certainty and physical strength. There's plenty of room in Christianity for righteous warfare and moral certainty, however; it's arguably mandatory. There is a lot of criticism of the highly pernicious "myth of Nice Jesus", in Christian circles.

I'd think that the reason for the decline of Christianity, is that most people don't even understand what Christianity is. There is a lot of effort to discourage people from even just reading the Bible. They've developed a bit of a knee-jerk tendency to automatically assume Christianity is false, despite having no idea what the faith really is. When Christian missionaries spread the faith to other Westerners, they're often surprised by how much it makes sense to them. It's completely different from their perception of what Christianity is, which is often a cartoon-like silly version of tribal mythology, or just the religion of a hippie doofus who is their non-judgemental best friend.

[athanaric]

Islam is "pagan" in the technical sense of the word. Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness. Fighting one evil using another evil isn't very productive. We already have a clear guide for defeating evil in this life and the next, we just need to be smart enough to give it a shot.

I'm sorry, how exactly is Christianity more rational, or gender-equal, than paganism? Or even Islam?
Christianity didn't prevent the Dark Ages. Nor did it prevent Communism or National Socialism.
Also, let's not forget that in many cases, it was the Christian Europeans who were the aggressors against the pagan Europeans, and colonized their territory. In most cases, if you leave out the originally non-European aggressors (Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Islamic Arabs etc.). It's not that I don't appreciate the things that came with Christianization, such as getting rid of human sacrifices, (re-)building a unified European political structure and civilization, giving new impulses to philosophical thought etc., but there were a lot of things lost in the process, including a lot of the indigenous cultural heritage. And Christianity also introduced some problematic new elements, such as the concept of original sin (basis for the current problem of self-loathing among native Europeans), or religious anti-Semitism.

It's unsurprising that in the face of outside aggression, some have turned to ancient paganism for defense and motivation; they associate it with moral certainty and physical strength. There's plenty of room in Christianity for righteous warfare and moral certainty, however; it's arguably mandatory. There is a lot of criticism of the highly pernicious "myth of Nice Jesus", in Christian circles.

Sure, and I'd rather be surrounded by armed, self-respecting Christians than by the self-loathing and hypocritical pacifists Christians that are much more common in this part of Europe. However the latter are also a product of fundamentally Christian thinking, and serve to demonstrate a big weakness in the belief system, just like Islam has its flaws.

I'd think that the reason for the decline of Christianity, is that most people don't even understand what Christianity is. There is a lot of effort to discourage people from even just reading the Bible. They've developed a bit of a knee-jerk tendency to automatically assume Christianity is false, despite having no idea what the faith really is. When Christian missionaries spread the faith to other Westerners, they're often surprised by how much it makes sense to them. It's completely different from their perception of what Christianity is, which is often a cartoon-like silly version of tribal mythology, or just the religion of a hippie doofus who is their non-judgemental best friend.

And when Islamic missionaries spread the faith to Westerners, it often makes a lot of sense to them too (also, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity). This is because these people seek meaning in life and want to fulfil their spiritual needs, and there are certain religions that suit certain character types more than others. It's not a matter of one belief being more logical than the rest.

Hate being disparaging but would you let your daughter go out with either of them? Added that just to stir the pot and get a conversation going.

If I had a daughter of the appropriate age, why not? They seem like decent enough people. I'm sure the one on the right is popular with the ladies, given his looks. I'd thoroughly vet them beforehand, of course.

[basics]

athanaric,

Christianity is more rational because it lays out that there is no gender equality. If God had reversed the procedure and made woman first there still wouldn't be gender equality. As far as communism and national socialism are concerned where are they now? It is God Who determines how long He allows a certain belief system to operate and if we believe what the Scriptures tell us Islam will go the very same way as has Rome and other systems not only of the past and also the very near past. Ever think that no matter what a person believes God is always part of that belief. He is always invoked one way or another, why? Because all men have an iota in their system thanks to creation that there is a God no matter their lifestyle, belief or disbelief.

[Prodromos]

I'm sorry, how exactly is Christianity more rational, or gender-equal, than paganism? Or even Islam?
Christianity didn't prevent the Dark Ages. Nor did it prevent Communism or National Socialism.
Also, let's not forget that in many cases, it was the Christian Europeans who were the aggressors against the pagan Europeans, and colonized their territory. In most cases, if you leave out the originally non-European aggressors (Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Islamic Arabs etc.). It's not that I don't appreciate the things that came with Christianization, such as getting rid of human sacrifices, (re-)building a unified European political structure and civilization, giving new impulses to philosophical thought etc., but there were a lot of things lost in the process, including a lot of the indigenous cultural heritage. And Christianity also introduced some problematic new elements, such as the concept of original sin (basis for the current problem of self-loathing among native Europeans), or religious anti-Semitism.


Sure, and I'd rather be surrounded by armed, self-respecting Christians than by the self-loathing and hypocritical pacifists Christians that are much more common in this part of Europe. However the latter are also a product of fundamentally Christian thinking, and serve to demonstrate a big weakness in the belief system, just like Islam has its flaws.


And when Islamic missionaries spread the faith to Westerners, it often makes a lot of sense to them too (also, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity). This is because these people seek meaning in life and want to fulfil their spiritual needs, and there are certain religions that suit certain character types more than others. It's not a matter of one belief being more logical than the rest.

Christianity provides a logically-coherent worldview. God has gifted human beings the ability to use reason to discover truth about him and his creation. In Christianity, truth is not something to be avoided and feared, it is something to be embraced. Using reason to discover truth becomes sort of a form of worship of God. There may be pagans who share these beliefs, but I don't think it is as pronounced in their religions as it is in Christianity.

Regarding equality, Christianity makes it perfectly clear that all people are made in God's image and equally valuable. While each gender has different strengths and weaknesses and therefore different gender roles, neither gender is "superior" to the other. The two genders are complementary, not in conflict with one another. Additionally, Christianity generally prohibits aggression toward anyone, and this includes women. In Christianity, the strong don't take what they can and the weak don't suffer what they must. There are clear rules to direct humans' natural tendencies toward good instead of evil. Women are better off under Christianity than any pagan religion.

You mentioned a list of bad deeds and historical wrongs, but I don't think any of them were caused by Christianity. They're inherent to the human condition. Christianity generally seeks to erase these behaviors. But Christianity requires active effort, and few people can go through life without ever violating any moral rule. Simply professing to be a Christian doesn't automatically turn you into a perfect being. An individual can identify as Christian and still do unChristian things. If everyone followed all moral rules perfectly, those things wouldn't happen. More often than not, it is someone using the Christian religion as an excuse to further their personal aims. But that is the fault of only the individual, not Christianity.

What I was trying to convey with the Bible/Christianity thing, is that people often expect it to be illogical, hateful mumbo jumbo. But when they start learning about it, they are surprised by how coherent and agreeable it is, even if they don't entirely believe it.

As an aside I don't think any number of people are actually converting to Islam. It's mostly just criminals, black racists and certain people in a very bad place in life. The vast majority of them apparently leave Islam within a few years. Islam is never spread by appealing to people's rationality or goodness. That is probably why they prohibit criticism and kill anyone who tries to leaves the cult.

[Muizer]

They sound like people eager to be left behind intellectually as well as spiritually, whatever that means. I guess it is kind of understandable to seek such comfort in what is and has been, but it's not a place I would look for a vision of the future worth striving for, nor for any spiritual framework to live by. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind: where do you think we would be now if people in the past had succeeded in clinging their mental comfort zone? We'd never have made it out of the stone age.