A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

[Aexodus]

Came across this video of a discussion I found very interesting indeed. Would love to hear some thoughts on it.

A large theme of the video is traditionalism, within the definition that it isn't simply something in favour of mindless continuation of random traditions. Instead, traditionalism would be the belief that all traditions are part of one 'truth', with each cultural tradition specific to a particular perspective of a people of the world. That the contents of the culture, the tradition aren't as important as how strongly and passionately it is believed in. This is what distinguishes it from Conservatism, which seeks to preserve simply for the sake of something's familiarity. People should have their own traditions, be able to reform and change them if needed, but shouldn't en masse adopt the culture of someone else completely, else lose their own identity.


For example, Islam and it's adherents can be admired for the strong identity it gives, and fervour to defend it many Muslims have, an ideal seemingly forgotten in The West. That within western countries, a certain spirituality has been lost, which makes it easier for other neighbouring cultures to absorb it. Indeed, religious conversion can often cause unnecessary tension and weaken a culture. The Dalai Lama said 'If a western man converts to Buddhism, what happens to his Christian family?'


They also touch on the Cheddar man controversy, making the point that dark skin doesn't equal an ethnic African, and the media's darkening of the skin in pictures and pushing the 'black European' narrative instead of him being a 'European with darker skin' The closest people today to the hunter-gatherer today are in Estonia. "If you give an Estonian dark skin you don't get an African, you get a dark skinned Estonian". The whole narrative has been fabricated to form a sentiment among Europeans that their history is not legitimate, that they are all somehow African and not European.


While I admire the desire for metaphysical ideals, I don't believe they should take precedence over any and every other aspect of someone's life. Rather, they should be used as a way to ensure your own virtue with strong principles that yet don't impede on your way of life.

[basics]

Aexodus,

Now you know why the UK voted to get out of Europe plus the disaster Sweden is bringing to its people. Hate being disparaging but would you let your daughter go out with either of them? Added that just to stir the pot and get a conversation going.

[Prodromos]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

[Aexodus]

Video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but from your commentary on it, there is not much to disagree with.

I see Paganism in the title, however, and my crusader instincts are tingling. We should be cautious of calls to return to paganism in order to defend Western values. Remember that European pagans weren't much different in behavior and beliefs from Muslims. The cause of Western stagnation isn't too much Christianity, it is too little of Christian faith.

Indeed, I agree. At times contrary to what they both say at times, paganism is not the foundation of the West, and would return us to a pre-medieval belief system, one which I don't think any significant amount of people want. However, the decline of Christian faith is something that perhaps can be replaced with a more general spirituality in one's life, which may or may indeed not be pagan inspired. I don't think I've heard of the comparison between Paganism and Islam before, but then again both are diametrically opposed to the Christian tradition of 'meekness ' and forgiveness unto one another. Mercy is one of the ideals that took the West to the civilisation it is today, sometimes raw strength of will in an ideology isn't always the best in a society.

[Prodromos]

Indeed, I agree. At times contrary to what they both say at times, paganism is not the foundation of the West, and would return us to a pre-medieval belief system, one which I don't think any significant amount of people want. However, the decline of Christian faith is something that perhaps can be replaced with a more general spirituality in one's life, which may or may indeed not be pagan inspired. I don't think I've heard of the comparison between Paganism and Islam before, but then again both are diametrically opposed to the Christian tradition of 'meekness ' and forgiveness unto one another. Mercy is one of the ideals that took the West to the civilisation it is today, sometimes raw strength of will in an ideology isn't always the best in a society.

I think that is considered "pagan." It's simply worship of the created world, rather than the creator, which I'm not sure if it's sufficient to defeat the barbarians at the gates. There's always been people with "spiritual but not Christian" belief systems before, but at least it was based on a Christian morality. A spiritual society that rejects Christianity would be easy to conquer, I think, because society would collapse from within. You need Christian virtue to build a solid foundation for society. Prosperity at home is necessary to defeat the enemy abroad.

Islam is "pagan" in the technical sense of the word. Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness. Fighting one evil using another evil isn't very productive. We already have a clear guide for defeating evil in this life and the next, we just need to be smart enough to give it a shot.

It's unsurprising that in the face of outside aggression, some have turned to ancient paganism for defense and motivation; they associate it with moral certainty and physical strength. There's plenty of room in Christianity for righteous warfare and moral certainty, however; it's arguably mandatory. There is a lot of criticism of the highly pernicious "myth of Nice Jesus", in Christian circles.

I'd think that the reason for the decline of Christianity, is that most people don't even understand what Christianity is. There is a lot of effort to discourage people from even just reading the Bible. They've developed a bit of a knee-jerk tendency to automatically assume Christianity is false, despite having no idea what the faith really is. When Christian missionaries spread the faith to other Westerners, they're often surprised by how much it makes sense to them. It's completely different from their perception of what Christianity is, which is often a cartoon-like silly version of tribal mythology, or just the religion of a hippie doofus who is their non-judgemental best friend.

[athanaric]

Islam is "pagan" in the technical sense of the word. Islamic behavior and mores aren't dissimilar from those of ancient European pagans. Slavery, pillaging, rape, expansionism, gender inequality, irrationality, worldliness. Fighting one evil using another evil isn't very productive. We already have a clear guide for defeating evil in this life and the next, we just need to be smart enough to give it a shot.

I'm sorry, how exactly is Christianity more rational, or gender-equal, than paganism? Or even Islam?
Christianity didn't prevent the Dark Ages. Nor did it prevent Communism or National Socialism.
Also, let's not forget that in many cases, it was the Christian Europeans who were the aggressors against the pagan Europeans, and colonized their territory. In most cases, if you leave out the originally non-European aggressors (Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Islamic Arabs etc.). It's not that I don't appreciate the things that came with Christianization, such as getting rid of human sacrifices, (re-)building a unified European political structure and civilization, giving new impulses to philosophical thought etc., but there were a lot of things lost in the process, including a lot of the indigenous cultural heritage. And Christianity also introduced some problematic new elements, such as the concept of original sin (basis for the current problem of self-loathing among native Europeans), or religious anti-Semitism.

It's unsurprising that in the face of outside aggression, some have turned to ancient paganism for defense and motivation; they associate it with moral certainty and physical strength. There's plenty of room in Christianity for righteous warfare and moral certainty, however; it's arguably mandatory. There is a lot of criticism of the highly pernicious "myth of Nice Jesus", in Christian circles.

Sure, and I'd rather be surrounded by armed, self-respecting Christians than by the self-loathing and hypocritical pacifists Christians that are much more common in this part of Europe. However the latter are also a product of fundamentally Christian thinking, and serve to demonstrate a big weakness in the belief system, just like Islam has its flaws.

I'd think that the reason for the decline of Christianity, is that most people don't even understand what Christianity is. There is a lot of effort to discourage people from even just reading the Bible. They've developed a bit of a knee-jerk tendency to automatically assume Christianity is false, despite having no idea what the faith really is. When Christian missionaries spread the faith to other Westerners, they're often surprised by how much it makes sense to them. It's completely different from their perception of what Christianity is, which is often a cartoon-like silly version of tribal mythology, or just the religion of a hippie doofus who is their non-judgemental best friend.

And when Islamic missionaries spread the faith to Westerners, it often makes a lot of sense to them too (also, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity). This is because these people seek meaning in life and want to fulfil their spiritual needs, and there are certain religions that suit certain character types more than others. It's not a matter of one belief being more logical than the rest.

Hate being disparaging but would you let your daughter go out with either of them? Added that just to stir the pot and get a conversation going.

If I had a daughter of the appropriate age, why not? They seem like decent enough people. I'm sure the one on the right is popular with the ladies, given his looks. I'd thoroughly vet them beforehand, of course.

[basics]

athanaric,

Christianity is more rational because it lays out that there is no gender equality. If God had reversed the procedure and made woman first there still wouldn't be gender equality. As far as communism and national socialism are concerned where are they now? It is God Who determines how long He allows a certain belief system to operate and if we believe what the Scriptures tell us Islam will go the very same way as has Rome and other systems not only of the past and also the very near past. Ever think that no matter what a person believes God is always part of that belief. He is always invoked one way or another, why? Because all men have an iota in their system thanks to creation that there is a God no matter their lifestyle, belief or disbelief.

[Muizer]

They sound like people eager to be left behind intellectually as well as spiritually, whatever that means. I guess it is kind of understandable to seek such comfort in what is and has been, but it's not a place I would look for a vision of the future worth striving for, nor for any spiritual framework to live by. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind: where do you think we would be now if people in the past had succeeded in clinging their mental comfort zone? We'd never have made it out of the stone age.

[basics]

There's a guy called Barry Woodward, once one of these cool dudes but not now coming up to our church and local school to give testimony to what like drug addiction does to a person. Having himself been in prison he also lectures in prisons on the same subject but being a testimony it is all about how Jesus Christ changed his life around taking away his addiction. It's all part and parcel of what God offers anyone and delivers if the candidate is sincere in wanting change. Could it be that these two individuals think themselves far too intellectual to really understand what is going on out there in the wide world?

[Prodromos]

I'm sorry, how exactly is Christianity more rational, or gender-equal, than paganism? Or even Islam?
Christianity didn't prevent the Dark Ages. Nor did it prevent Communism or National Socialism.
Also, let's not forget that in many cases, it was the Christian Europeans who were the aggressors against the pagan Europeans, and colonized their territory. In most cases, if you leave out the originally non-European aggressors (Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Islamic Arabs etc.). It's not that I don't appreciate the things that came with Christianization, such as getting rid of human sacrifices, (re-)building a unified European political structure and civilization, giving new impulses to philosophical thought etc., but there were a lot of things lost in the process, including a lot of the indigenous cultural heritage. And Christianity also introduced some problematic new elements, such as the concept of original sin (basis for the current problem of self-loathing among native Europeans), or religious anti-Semitism.


Sure, and I'd rather be surrounded by armed, self-respecting Christians than by the self-loathing and hypocritical pacifists Christians that are much more common in this part of Europe. However the latter are also a product of fundamentally Christian thinking, and serve to demonstrate a big weakness in the belief system, just like Islam has its flaws.


And when Islamic missionaries spread the faith to Westerners, it often makes a lot of sense to them too (also, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity). This is because these people seek meaning in life and want to fulfil their spiritual needs, and there are certain religions that suit certain character types more than others. It's not a matter of one belief being more logical than the rest.

Christianity provides a logically-coherent worldview. God has gifted human beings the ability to use reason to discover truth about him and his creation. In Christianity, truth is not something to be avoided and feared, it is something to be embraced. Using reason to discover truth becomes sort of a form of worship of God. There may be pagans who share these beliefs, but I don't think it is as pronounced in their religions as it is in Christianity.

Regarding equality, Christianity makes it perfectly clear that all people are made in God's image and equally valuable. While each gender has different strengths and weaknesses and therefore different gender roles, neither gender is "superior" to the other. The two genders are complementary, not in conflict with one another. Additionally, Christianity generally prohibits aggression toward anyone, and this includes women. In Christianity, the strong don't take what they can and the weak don't suffer what they must. There are clear rules to direct humans' natural tendencies toward good instead of evil. Women are better off under Christianity than any pagan religion.

You mentioned a list of bad deeds and historical wrongs, but I don't think any of them were caused by Christianity. They're inherent to the human condition. Christianity generally seeks to erase these behaviors. But Christianity requires active effort, and few people can go through life without ever violating any moral rule. Simply professing to be a Christian doesn't automatically turn you into a perfect being. An individual can identify as Christian and still do unChristian things. If everyone followed all moral rules perfectly, those things wouldn't happen. More often than not, it is someone using the Christian religion as an excuse to further their personal aims. But that is the fault of only the individual, not Christianity.

What I was trying to convey with the Bible/Christianity thing, is that people often expect it to be illogical, hateful mumbo jumbo. But when they start learning about it, they are surprised by how coherent and agreeable it is, even if they don't entirely believe it.

As an aside I don't think any number of people are actually converting to Islam. It's mostly just criminals, black racists and certain people in a very bad place in life. The vast majority of them apparently leave Islam within a few years. Islam is never spread by appealing to people's rationality or goodness. That is probably why they prohibit criticism and kill anyone who tries to leaves the cult.

[basics]

Dr Legend,

Well said putting Christianity way above and beyond anything religion conveys through manmade systems.

[PFElton]

As an Asatruar, I cannot fathom how a Christian can with a straight face accuse others of "acting like Muslims" when your lot used every dirty trick and psychotic violent means to eradicate Heathenry over 600 years. Bite me.

[Aexodus]

A common argument of Paganism is that it is a religion that came from the souls of Europeans, and reflected their spirit and mind set. The Abrahamic religions however, were created in a foreign land, long after Paganism was around. As such, Europeans will always struggle to follow the ways of Jesus, Judas, or Mohammed. I.e. As a Semitic religion, Christianity doesn't reflect the European mindset, that's why there have been so many religious wars and reforms to adapt an Abrahamic religion to Europe, whereas Islam and Judaism have perhaps stayed relatively more intact as an ideology over the years, largely remaining in the Middle East. When Islam reached Europe, in particular the Balkans, it took the form of the less fundamentalist Islamic ideology of Sufism.

[basics]

As an Asatruar, I cannot fathom how a Christian can with a straight face accuse others of "acting like Muslims" when your lot used every dirty trick and psychotic violent means to eradicate Heathenry over 600 years. Bite me.

PFElton,

Did I accuse anyone of behaving like Muslims? Being old and my memory not as it used to be you'll forgive me for asking what these dirty tricks were to eradicate heathenry? The Gospel according to the Scriptures has never advocated actions like these and still doesn't. Why these same Scriptures tell us that those who have done such things will also be punished by God, Jesus Christ, at the last day that being the day of judgement.

[Prodromos]

As an Asatruar, I cannot fathom how a Christian can with a straight face accuse others of "acting like Muslims" when your lot used every dirty trick and psychotic violent means to eradicate Heathenry over 600 years. Bite me.

And for the 600 years before heathenry was "eradicated", Nordics were pillaging, enslaving, killing, and otherwise messing with defenseless Christians (and then running away before Christian armies could arrive). They were the ISIS of Europe, in a way, and in fact sold the Christians they shamelessly enslaved to Muslims. Prior to the arrival of Christianity, they were about as technologically and culturally advanced as an uncontacted sub-Saharan African tribe. I like Norse history as much as anyone, but let's not beautify the past.

I hope you're not too offended by this image. It's funny but true!

[basics]

I remember delivering some goods to the Findhorn Foundation which is a New Age organisation where I was told everyone donated all they had financially to it. On going past people on a stairway there came a sound from somewhere and everyone except me just stopped dead in whatever position they happened to be in at that moment and didn't move again until another sound came to which all started moving again. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and it reminded me of that TV soap, " The Avengers " Not long after that a young lass appeared at our launderette broken down in tears because she had been put out having run out of money to give them. Of course we consoled her the best we could but what happened to her after that I don't know. At that time sheep were being found with their throats slit in various points of what is Kinloss and Findhorn them being part of some ritual so we were told by locals especially around Kinloss Abbey's remains. These are so-called intelligent people so why all this mind control that they have on those that belong to the place?

[athanaric]

Dr. Legend - the "human condition" argument can easily applied to all other religions (including Islam!) as well. The prime motivators behind the Viking raids weren't "Pagan values", they were greed, material poverty, socio-political issues, etc.
It's also rather misleading to claim that the Pagan Scandinavians were primitive - they were an iron age culture that was quite advanced in shipbuilding and woodworking, and as fond of the amenities of civilized life as anyone. The ones that went on raids and became the eponymous Vikings were in all likelihood not the most virtuous members of their society. Although in today's parlance, they would probably be called "refugees"...
It is also worth noting that the Christianization of Northern and Central Europe was not peaceful, and mostly happened due to political pressure from the ruling class. And there were many instances of Christian violence and extremism, particularly in the early Modern age.

What is more interesting to argue about is how different belief systems cultivate different aspects of human nature and how that impacts civilization. Here, I see some positive traits of Christianity vis-à-vis other religions, but also negative ones.

Also, the mythology of Christianity is no less bizarre and unrealistic than that of most other religions. Which is the main reason why I object to calling it "logical".


Basics - fraudulent sects are a dime a dozen, and they can use any ideology as a basis, e.g. "anti-fascism", vegetarianism, bad science fiction, Hinduism, quackery, and, yes, Christian mythology. And those are just the ones I know of. The distinction from traditional religion lies in the methods applied (rigid control, brainwashing, punishment of heretics etc.) and the motivations of the people running the system (greed, control, sexual exploitation), not the inherent craziness of the beliefs. And as you can perhaps see, there is some overlap with organized religion of all denominations.

[basics]

athanaric,

Fraudulent sects are a dime a dozen but then so are false religions and believe it or not they all have risen from the original story of Christ's coming to save mankind. Instead of seeing the Supernatural they have turned that around to make the natural the important aspect of any belief. In other words man is in control of his own destiny and that originates from what the serpent told Eve in the garden at the fall or just before the fall to make the fall of man happen. There isn't a cult or religious system that can go further back than that and to do that one must convince themselves that there isn't a God, never has been, and so we come to the evolutionist centre of worship of chance that to be believed breaks every mathematical equation of chance ever being likely.

As for the breakdown in most religions resulting in denominationalising that seems to be a natural progression as men vie for position and authority in the systems to which they belonged. We see this in Christianity when we had the Bishop's wars where men looked to the world rather than God for an answer. The Scriptures themselves made that unfortunate aspect within its own so-called people as something that would happen and did. What it proves is that the fall of man into the power of sin was so complete that even those that are God's people struggle every day to stay on the path set out for them. Little Israel is a constant reminder of how easy that it is to carry the word of God and yet fall away continually from it. The good news though is that once born again, Jesus won't ever let you go, picking one up every time one falls to set one back on the right path. That's how powerful the blood is.

[PFElton]

PFElton,

Did I accuse anyone of behaving like Muslims? Being old and my memory not as it used to be you'll forgive me for asking what these dirty tricks were to eradicate heathenry? The Gospel according to the Scriptures has never advocated actions like these and still doesn't. Why these same Scriptures tell us that those who have done such things will also be punished by God, Jesus Christ, at the last day that being the day of judgement.

Touching.

The offenses against Heathens are innumerable(not unlike offenses against Druids, Rodnovers, Romuvans, Hellenions, etc.) Off the top of my head, there was the desecration of the Hessian oak, the massacre of Verden, destruction of the Irminsule, forcible relocation of tribes, forced baptisms/conversions under penalty of poverty and/or death, and unending propaganda tactics targeting our Gods. When you sweet, loving, Gawd-fearin' Christians didn't get your way, you brought suffering and death everywhere you went, and you justify it through your dead Jew-god.

And for the 600 years before heathenry was "eradicated", Nordics were pillaging, enslaving, killing, and otherwise messing with defenseless Christians (and then running away before Christian armies could arrive). They were the ISIS of Europe, in a way, and in fact sold the Christians they shamelessly enslaved to Muslims. Prior to the arrival of Christianity, they were about as technologically and culturally advanced as an uncontacted sub-Saharan African tribe. I like Norse history as much as anyone, but let's not beautify the past.

I hope you're not too offended by this image. It's funny but true!

Heathens did nothing to target Christians first. There were no religious strifes through Europe until the dead Jew and his fan club showed up. Christians are just as guilty of the behavior you have outlined and often initiated it, masking their barbarism under the cross of the dead carpenter-god, so spare me the "there we were peaceful little Christians loving Jezuz until the big mean pagans came and hurt us because they didnt love Jezuz and were bad guys" routine. For some 2,000 years, Christians have dominated precipitating conflict, then crying foul when someone hits back.

Also, your picture is demonstrably deceptive and false, a classic smear tactic against Heathens. However, anyone with eyes can clearly see the discrepancy in the sophistication of structures demonstrated. Even our lowly, common little villages had more advanced architecture than peak sub-Saharan.

[basics]

PFElton,

I cannot deny what Rome did across the world in the name of God but while this was going on there were Christians who sticking to the Scriptures did not indulge in these practices. The problem was that men who were never born again assumed the rulership of Christ's mission for His people to tell of the Gospel in humility and love and done mostly in an unadvertised manner. This was the case in Britain until the Roman system was introduced and so up until the death of Macbeth who in reality was like his wife a devout Christian in the Scriptural fashion. I don't know whether it is true but there is a belief that Paul himself actually set foot on these shores to bolster those that were already preaching the word here.