Northern Ireland Direct Rule and the Irish Language Act

[Aexodus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-norther...itics-43064009

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38601181

http://www.irishnews.com/news/politi...-mean--924164/

With the most recent batch of Stormont talks yet again failing, there appears to be no end other than Direct Rule and the wrapping up of almost two decades of power sharing in the province. One of the most notorious issues being the Sinn Fein backed Irish Language Act, which the majority party in NI the DUP opposes being one of the larger barriers to a return to devolution.

Bearing in mind Irish is spoke by 0.2% of the population as a first language, this is what a publicly funded Irish Language Act would likely entail:

• The option for Irish to be used in court
• Irish being used in assembly debates
• The widespread use of Irish by all state bodies including the police
• The appointment of an Irish Language commissioner to ensure the language is facilitated
• The right to be educated through the Irish language
• Bilingual signage on public buildings and road signage.

So is the only way forward Direct Rule, with neither side giving an inch, or will the DUP capitulate on Irish Language for the sake of devolution.

[NorseThing]

The problem is that the UK government needs the DUP support and the DUP is basic bomb throwing with the suggestion of direct rule. The UK government needs to be firm and use the normal business of new elections.

My suggestion would be to ignore the threat. If it means new elections (both NI and UK may be on offer), so be it. If it means May is not longer the PM with new elections in the UK after a vote of confidence, so be it. Being held hostage to a radical fringe is not good government.

[Love Mountain]

Devolution? While holding up important legislation over something as silly as a language that hardly anyone speaks is indeed stupid, there is nothing wrong with legislating that Irish be recognized as one of the official languages or legislating that Irish be used in official government functions. While this would cost money and is rather wasteful, it wouldn't be a significant amount. Ultimately it pales in comparison to the importance of direct rule, so i wouldn't choose this hill to die on.

And again, devolution is the wrong term to use here.

[Aexodus]

Devolution? While holding up important legislation over something as silly as a language that hardly anyone speaks is indeed stupid, there is nothing wrong with legislating that Irish be recognized as one of the official languages or legislating that Irish be used in official government functions. While this would cost money and is rather wasteful, it wouldn't be a significant amount. Ultimately it pales in comparison to the importance of direct rule, so i wouldn't choose this hill to die on.

And again, devolution is the wrong term to use here.

The problem is, Sinn Fein have held the assembly in limbo for many many months, with the devolved powers that Stormont has as a bargaining chip to achieve their Language Act. If the DUP simply caved then they would have their hardline loyalist political base to answer to.

The problem that some people have with legislating for Irish as an official language is that at that point you may legislate for Ulster Scots and other dialects. Point being that any such legislation has no practical value and only has a political/cultural meaning. And not everyone wants to have to learn Irish in the first place.

The telegraph made a good point here https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/o...-35804226.html

Everyone in Northern Ireland is free to learn Irish. Already Irish is well represented in official Assembly documentation and broadcasting. But that Irish should be made co-equal with English in the courts, administration, commerce, education and place-naming of Northern Ireland is a surreal demand.

The problem is that the UK government needs the DUP support and the DUP is basic bomb throwing with the suggestion of direct rule. The UK government needs to be firm and use the normal business of new elections.

My suggestion would be to ignore the threat. If it means new elections (both NI and UK may be on offer), so be it. If it means May is not longer the PM with new elections in the UK after a vote of confidence, so be it. Being held hostage to a radical fringe is not good government.

There already was an election in March last year after the assembly was dissolved in January. It solved nothing.

[Copperknickers II]

Everyone in Northern Ireland is free to learn Irish. Already Irish is well represented in official Assembly documentation and broadcasting. But that Irish should be made co-equal with English in the courts, administration, commerce, education and place-naming of Northern Ireland is a surreal demand.

Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland. Irish is the indigenous language of the area (it's also essentially the ancestral language of many of the Ulster Scots, by the way, some of whom were probably only 2 or 3 generations removed from Scottish Gaelic when they came over to Ireland in the 17th century). The fact that Gaelic is barely spoken there anymore is testament to concerted ethnic and cultural cleansing by past British governments, both in Scotland and in Ireland. Also, the part of Ulster where Irish is alive and well, namely Donegal, was deliberately not included in Northern Ireland in order to support the self-determination agenda of the Ulster Scottish, which was the key factor that allowed Northern Ireland to be kept out of the Irish independent state. Had the self-determination of the people of Ulster been taken into account in 1922 Northern Ireland would not have existed, so by self-determination agenda, I am referring to the self-determination of the specific part of Ulster which was artificially carved out based on density of Protestant residents.

Nevertheless, N.I. itself is no longer majority Protestant, so the only thing stopping it from simply rejoining the RoI is fatigue from the Troubles making people too wary of provoking another period of unrest. It seems likely tome that in economic and political terms Northern Ireland's days are numbered, it's just a matter of time. The elevation of the Irish language to parity with its status in the RoI is the right of every Irish citizen, and since the Good Friday Agreement provides that anyone in Northern Ireland is eligible for Irish citizenship, it's the duty of the Northern Irish government to allow its Irish citizens the rights they should be able to enjoy, no matter how many of them actually choose to take advantage of them. So it's not really about the language, it's about the right of Irish people in N.I. to be Irish. This was what was agreed. The DUP, it should be noted, are a part which routinely glorifies 19th Century British misrule, which we must remember, led to the deaths of millions of people. They have annual parades in honour of the invasion of Ireland and the subjugation of the Irish people. So it's difficult for people to see the economic and practical considerations of the language issue against this backdrop: if Northern Ireland were 45% Irish-speaking you can bet the DUP would still be behaving the same way.

Nobody wants a return to the Troubles, and these historical grievances and festering divides are not something I talk about with other Brits or Irish people. Everyone knows about them and even voicing them is adding to the bitterness. I mention them here only because not everyone on here is from these islands and may understandably think it seems 'stupid' to be arguing over a language that nobody speaks. That is, of course, not what the argument is actually about. It's about making reparations for the hurt that was caused and the hundreds of innocent people who died in Northern Europe's worst post-War shame.

[Love Mountain]

Pushing for Gaelic is symbolic but again, hardly something I'd waste time and legislation on. In the end everyone speaks English on the British Isles and that won't be changing anytime soon.

[Sir Adrian]

It will be changing very soon if legislation is pushed.

I really think Northern Ireland would be a lot happier as part of Ireland than remaining a part of England.

[Aexodus]

Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland. Irish is the indigenous language of the area (it's also essentially the ancestral language of many of the Ulster Scots, by the way, some of whom were probably only 2 or 3 generations removed from Scottish Gaelic when they came over to Ireland in the 17th century). The fact that Gaelic is barely spoken there anymore is testament to concerted ethnic and cultural cleansing by past British governments, both in Scotland and in Ireland. Also, the part of Ulster where Irish is alive and well, namely Donegal, was deliberately not included in Northern Ireland in order to support the self-determination agenda of the Ulster Scottish, which was the key factor that allowed Northern Ireland to be kept out of the Irish independent state. Had the self-determination of the people of Ulster been taken into account in 1922 Northern Ireland would not have existed, so by self-determination agenda, I am referring to the self-determination of the specific part of Ulster which was artificially carved out based on density of Protestant residents.

By your own logic the Irish Language Act is 'cultural cleansing', forcibly making the British population speak an almost dead language that only has political significance in place of English is exactly that, by your definition. Let me say it again. People have every right to learn Irish if they so choose no. Yes, it's regrettable that hundreds of years ago the Gaels of Ulster were conquered by the Normans, the English, Welsh and Scottish. But those people, the British, are the native population RIGHT NOW in many parts of NI. If you swapped British with 'Turkish' and Irish with 'Croat', the above could be from a Slobodan Praljak speech. An Irish Language Act won't bring about some glorious Celtic revolution. Also, you crack me up - 'the part of Ulster where Irish is alive and well, namely Donegal' - I go to Donegal every year, I have a house there, and even in the Ghaeltacht barely anyone speaks Irish. Donegal is very Republican, they wouldn't be want to be part of Britain and nor does anyone particularly want them to. I have Irish friends from Cavan and Monaghan, who say if they went to a Gaelic area they would barely have a clue despite having to learn Irish from no age. No-one forces anyone to speak English, yet even in the Republic with Irish as it's official primary language still has an overwhelming majority of English speakers after 100 years. Why? Because the Irish Language serves no real use in daily life. But apparently we have to learn it because of people who lived hundreds of years ago.

Nevertheless, N.I. itself is no longer majority Protestant, so the only thing stopping it from simply rejoining the RoI is fatigue from the Troubles making people too wary of provoking another period of unrest. It seems likely tome that in economic and political terms Northern Ireland's days are numbered, it's just a matter of time. The elevation of the Irish language to parity with its status in the RoI is the right of every Irish citizen, and since the Good Friday Agreement provides that anyone in Northern Ireland is eligible for Irish citizenship, it's the duty of the Northern Irish government to allow its Irish citizens the rights they should be able to enjoy, no matter how many of them actually choose to take advantage of them. So it's not really about the language, it's about the right of Irish people in N.I. to be Irish. This was what was agreed. The DUP, it should be noted, are a part which routinely glorifies 19th Century British misrule, which we must remember, led to the deaths of millions of people. They have annual parades in honour of the invasion of Ireland and the subjugation of the Irish people. So it's difficult for people to see the economic and practical considerations of the language issue against this backdrop: if Northern Ireland were 45% Irish-speaking you can bet the DUP would still be behaving the same way.

Nobody wants a return to the Troubles, and these historical grievances and festering divides are not something I talk about with other Brits or Irish people. Everyone knows about them and even voicing them is adding to the bitterness. I mention them here only because not everyone on here is from these islands and may understandably think it seems 'stupid' to be arguing over a language that nobody speaks. That is, of course, not what the argument is actually about. It's about making reparations for the hurt that was caused and the hundreds of innocent people who died in Northern Europe's worst post-War shame.

The 'only thing' stopping Northern Ireland being in the RoI is its majority Unionist party mate. Just because you're Protestant doesn't mean you're a Unionist...

And if people love the idea of being an Irish citizen so much and throw away their British citizenship there's a perfectly good Free State 2 counties away, max.

The context of the Stormont talks is that Sinn Fein was literally the political wing of the IRA, who now wish to use the Irish Language as a political tool to further their case for Irish Unification instead. Their participation and glorification of terrorism is the reason why the DUP will never give in to them. Just last week Mary Lou McDonald, Sinn Fein's leader, ended her inauguration with IRA slogans.

But Copperknickers is right, the Troubles is a subject best left alone, but this is the reality of Northern Irish politics, and why the politization of the Irish Language is only a very dangerous thing for the region.

It will be changing very soon if legislation is pushed.

I really think Northern Ireland would be a lot happier as part of Ireland than remaining a part of England.

To be honest, it probably would be better in an ideal world if the English had never stepped more than a foot out their own borders. But right now, Britain has been the status quo in Northern Ireland for hundreds of years, so any shift to that is always going to have a natural pushback.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Longer term honestly i think the UK will indeed let go of N.Ireland- brexit and its attendant border issues, probably being the catalyst that will start the process of separation. We've already had the DUP humiliating May over this issue. It would also be no great loss in terms of economics for the UK exchequer considering N.Ireland is one of the regions that has a significant deficit in being a fiscal black hole (and unlike say the North East of England- its actually viable to 'get rid' from a rUK perspective). Barring this longer-term likelihood though this whole thing is a huge issue out of nothing- stemming i think from the language issue, but also the DUP 'cash for ash' scandal- which Sinn Fein jumped on naturally, as lets face it- that was a major up from Arlene Foster. In terms of the language, i don't see why they just can't allow it- Wales and Scotland both did it technically. It'll cost a negligible amount in terms of budgets (And again N.Ireland is already a £9 billion or more drain by some economic accounts, so a couple extra million will make no difference). I think Direct Rule will be a disaster though, and arguably its one more thing the Conservatives will not want on their plate considering the current domestic stagnation of policy due to the sheer legislative nightmare that is dealing with brexit in such a (stupidly self imposed) short time-scale.

[caratacus]

At the present time Northern Island is part of the UK and to instigate a language issue on a tongue barely 0.2% of people speak is quite obviously being unreasonable.

The Anglo Irish agreement Dante was about compromise about two sides coming together and working together in government towards a common purpose. Right now this agreement is in tatters and the use of this pathetic issue a cynical ploy of Sinn Fein to instill discord and direct rule to further their own interests.

Irish Gaelic like Scots Gaelic is a wonderful language and deserves a measure of support so those who wish to speak it in Northern Ireland do so. Hopefully one day it will be spoken by so many to merit equal recognition with English. But to cynically use it in the politics of sectarian division at this time is both disrespectful to Irish culture and counterproductive to its use among Protestant Irish.

At the present time, the form of the Irish border with Ulster after Brexit is being used in the same cynical way by an EU and those opposed to leaving. When the real crisis at the present time, is in the Province's administration which already has left the Anglo Irish Agreement unworkable in its present form.

[Comrade_Rory]

And if people love the idea of being an Irish citizen so much and throw away their British citizenship there's a perfectly good Free State 2 counties away, max.

And if people love the idea of being a British citizen so much, maybe they should off to Britain instead of occupying somebody else's country?

The Welsh language has received plenty of political support.
Scots Gaelic has received plenty of political support.
Why is Irish any different? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that unionists are still trying their best to ethnically cleanse the region of its native population.

It has nothing to do with "wasting" money on people speaking language. The unionists just have some irrational fear of native Irish people getting basic human rights.
It has nothing to do with forcing people to speak Irish. You said yourself that there are people in the Republic who learned Irish but can't speak a word. So what's to stop angry little unionists from just not paying attention in school? I went to school in Yorkshire and learned French but the last I checked, I still speak English and Yorkshire hasn't forcibly been annexed by France?
Most of the points are generally "the right to use the Irish language" which would suggest you also have the right to NOT use it.
And it really doesn't matter how few people speak Irish when the Orange Order seems to receive plenty of political support and funding and there are more Irish speakers than Orangemen.

[Aexodus]

And if people love the idea of being a British citizen so much, maybe they should off to Britain instead of occupying somebody else's country?

Being British doesn't compromise being Irish. The Irish identity isn't exclusive to being a nationalist, there are Irish Unionists i.e. British.

Would you say the same to Scottish and Welsh unionists? Go back to Britain? Ulster Unionists are Irish and British the same way the Welsh are British and the Scots are British. The Northern counties of the Irish island have a long history with Britain, Scotland in particular going way back to before even the plantations. I feel you're conflating geography with nationality when it comes to the island of Ireland. At any rate, an Irish language act will not bring back the Gaelic celts that once lived in Ulster. Heck, once those heathen Brits are gone, who are you gonna give the land to, eh?

More to the point, there's nothing wrong at all with considering yourself Irish in Northern Ireland. It's in the name. The point I was making was in response to copperknickers wrongful assumption that an Irish Language Act was the right of Irish citizens (i.e. Irish nationalists), which it is not. You aren't owed anyone else's money so you can learn a language that is only important to you. If you consider yourself an Irish nationalist, then my point was there was a separate Nationalist Irish state from the Northern Irish one where you can learn Irish; where Irish is the official state language. The UK is a multinational country, with people from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The elevation of the Irish language to parity with its status in the RoI is the right of every Irish citizen, and since the Good Friday Agreement provides that anyone in Northern Ireland is eligible for Irish citizenship, it's the duty of the Northern Irish government to allow its Irish citizens the rights they should be able to enjoy, no matter how many of them actually choose to take advantage of them. So it's not really about the language, it's about the right of Irish people in N.I. to be Irish.

No-one is denying anyone access to learning Irish. That is a cut and dry truth.

The Welsh language has received plenty of political support.
Scots Gaelic has received plenty of political support.
Why is Irish any different? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that unionists are still trying their best to ethnically cleanse the region of its native population.

It has nothing to do with "wasting" money on people speaking language. The unionists just have some irrational fear of native Irish people getting basic human rights.
It has nothing to do with forcing people to speak Irish. You said yourself that there are people in the Republic who learned Irish but can't speak a word. So what's to stop angry little unionists from just not paying attention in school? I went to school in Yorkshire and learned French but the last I checked, I still speak English and Yorkshire hasn't forcibly been annexed by France?
Most of the points are generally "the right to use the Irish language" which would suggest you also have the right to NOT use it.
And it really doesn't matter how few people speak Irish when the Orange Order seems to receive plenty of political support and funding and there are more Irish speakers than Orangemen.

Considering even the 'native' Irish also choose to speak English, I don't see why Unionists are supposed to identify with a language they don't want to speak. There already schools, mostly Catholic where the students learn Irish, in Northern Ireland. No-one is denying them anything. The opposition to an Irish Language Act stems from a natural opposition to having Irish shoe-horned into almost every aspect of daily life in Northern Ireland. Stop creating a victim complex as if nationalists are having their rights taken away. They are not. They are free to speak Irish, for the 100th time.

No-one is trying to ethnically cleanse Northern Ireland. I'd like some evidence if you're going to make such a claim.

Moreover, you say it has nothing to with 'wasting money' but you seem to admit Unionists wouldn't pay attention in Irish classes. A tad ironic, you could say.

It's also categorically incorrect to say there are more Orangemen than Irish speakers. There are about 4000 Irish speakers and 34,000 Orangmen. Which I am not one of, before you ask.

But can you answer me this? What material value does the Irish Language give to the people of Northern Ireland, other than an identity of a long-gone era. That is, an era of Irish speakers, north or south.

[Copperknickers II]

By your own logic the Irish Language Act is 'cultural cleansing', forcibly making the British population speak an almost dead language

Forcibly making people speak Irish on the island of Ireland could hardly be considered cultural cleansing. British culture belongs in Great Britain, in Ireland it can be eligible for no protection. All that of course is neglecting the fact that the Irish Language Act does not 'force' anybody to do anything.

But those people, the British, are the native population RIGHT NOW in many parts of NI.

There's no such thing as a 'British' ethnicity. The main ethnic populations in Northern Ireland are Irish people and Ulster Scots. Ulster Scots are for the most part ethnically Scottish (indeed many have Irish ancestry themselves) and their ancestral language is Gaelic. The Irish language act would protect their own cultural and ethnic heritage as well as those of the Irish. There is not a major ethnic English population in Northern Ireland so there's no need to protect or preserve English culture and language there.

An Irish Language Act won't bring about some glorious Celtic revolution. Also, you crack me up - 'the part of Ulster where Irish is alive and well, namely Donegal' - I go to Donegal every year, I have a house there, and even in the Ghaeltacht barely anyone speaks Irish.

I've never been to Donegal. I have been to Galway, and I heard plenty of Gaeilge being spoken there, my cousins have a house there and they speak only Irish when they are there. Maybe Donegal is totally different. Or more likely, you're just going to the wrong places.

No-one forces anyone to speak English, yet even in the Republic with Irish as it's official primary language still has an overwhelming majority of English speakers after 100 years. Why? Because the Irish Language serves no real use in daily life. But apparently we have to learn it because of people who lived hundreds of years ago.

The reason Irish is still in a minority is because of the ethnic cleansing which took place in the 19th century. The Gaelic-speaking areas (namely half the country or more) were emptied of people, incomers from the East Coast moved in, English was the administrative language, and so the locals were forced against their will in many cases to learn English. It was too little too late by the time of Irish independence. As for your belief that Irish 'serves no real use', of course it serves no use if everybody decides it serves no use. If people decided to learn it then it would be extremely useful. It's not about use, it's about national pride and cultural identity. Ireland without Irish is just England with more sheep and Guiness. An English-speaking Ireland is not what O'Connell, Emmett and Henry Joy died for. And speaking of Henry Joy, he was both an Irish Republican and also an Ulster Scot, and so were many of those who fought with him against the English in '98. A nice reminder that the Orangemen of Ulster are descended from proud Celts who give lie to their descendants' appeals to 'culture' and 'heritage' in their Union Jack-waving jingoism.

And if people love the idea of being an Irish citizen so much and throw away their British citizenship there's a perfectly good Free State 2 counties away, max.

Yep. That kind of goes both ways though, doesn't it, when there's this big island called 'Great Britain' which might seem a rather more natural place to be a flag waving British nationalist.


Anyway, I see the following attitude a lot on TWC and other settings: "Irish is a dead language. It's bad what happened to the Irish people 300 years ago, but everyone responsible is now dead. So if you try to redress the wrongs done 300 years ago, all you will do is harm people in the present day." I utterly reject this attitude, for the following reason: it is pure and simple 'might is right'. The logic of that argument absolutely justifies the use of tyrannical force to achieve whichever ideological aims you wish. The reason being, in the future, it will again be correct to say that redressing the error would cause harm and thus the desirability of the status quo must prevail over the undesirability of making up for past wrongs.

Or in simpler terms: your world-view seems to be, if somethign harmful happens right now, it's bad. If something harmful happened 300 years ago, it's no longer bad. Thus, doing something harmful is not actually bad at all, it is just temporarily bad, but over time it will become justified simply by virtue of having been the case for a long time. So how can you possibly have the moral position to tell me what I'm advocating is harmful? If I had everyone in Northern Ireland rounded up and forced to learn Irish, that would by your own logic be perfectly fine, so long as we looked at it from the vantage point of 200 years in the future when it will have produced a status quo whereby Irish is the majority language in the region again.

It's my belief that harmful actions are always harmful and they remain as such forever, or until redress is made.

[Aexodus]

Forcibly making people speak Irish on the island of Ireland could hardly be considered cultural cleansing. British culture belongs in Great Britain, in Ireland it can be eligible for no protection. All that of course is neglecting the fact that the Irish Language Act does not 'force' anybody to do anything.

It forces the Irish Language into legislature. Case in point why this is significant, in your own words -

English was the administrative language, and so the locals were forced against their will in many cases to learn English.

If the majority of Northern Irish decide that the Irish Language isn't their culture, that should be their democratic right, expressed through electing a party like the DUP to power. Legislation is a symbolic act of encroachment, or at least that is how it's perceived.

There's no such thing as a 'British' ethnicity. The main ethnic populations in Northern Ireland are Irish people and Ulster Scots. Ulster Scots are for the most part ethnically Scottish (indeed many have Irish ancestry themselves) and their ancestral language is Gaelic. The Irish language act would protect their own cultural and ethnic heritage as well as those of the Irish. There is not a major ethnic English population in Northern Ireland so there's no need to protect or preserve English culture and language there.

God, I didn't literally mean a British ethnicity, I meant the current Northern Irish Unionist families who have been living there for hundreds of years. That's enough to be native, in my book. The English language has been spoken for hundreds of years. Why does that need to change. You don't have to speak Irish to be Irish, flip's sake.

I've never been to Donegal. I have been to Galway, and I heard plenty of Gaeilge being spoken there, my cousins have a house there and they speak only Irish when they are there. Maybe Donegal is totally different. Or more likely, you're just going to the wrong places.

You're probably partly right, but I have been to the Gaeltacht and people readily speak English.

The reason Irish is still in a minority is because of the ethnic cleansing which took place in the 19th century. The Gaelic-speaking areas (namely half the country or more) were emptied of people, incomers from the East Coast moved in, English was the administrative language, and so the locals were forced against their will in many cases to learn English. It was too little too late by the time of Irish independence. As for your belief that Irish 'serves no real use', of course it serves no use if everybody decides it serves no use. If people decided to learn it then it would be extremely useful. It's not about use, it's about national pride and cultural identity. Ireland without Irish is just England with more sheep and Guiness. An English-speaking Ireland is not what O'Connell, Emmett and Henry Joy died for. And speaking of Henry Joy, he was both an Irish Republican and also an Ulster Scot, and so were many of those who fought with him against the English in '98. A nice reminder that the Orangemen of Ulster are descended from proud Celts who give lie to their descendants' appeals to 'culture' and 'heritage' in their Union Jack-waving jingoism.

Wew lad. I've already pointed out in this thread that the Irish Language is never going to return in the foreseeable future. It simply isn't useful. After over 100 years of independence only 1% of people in the Republic speak Irish as a home, work or community language. History is history. I don't see too many people in England wanting to sue the French to go back to Anglo-Saxon old English. Because it's not a useful language.

Different people on the island have different allegiances of national pride, and that needs to be respected.

Yep. That kind of goes both ways though, doesn't it, when there's this big island called 'Great Britain' which might seem a rather more natural place to be a flag waving British nationalist.

I've already pointed out that the UK is a multinational country, where today different territories can secede if they so wish, see the Scottish referendum, where the Scottish people voted to stay British. But this does not invalidate their Scottish identity, far from it. Northern Ireland is British, and again, you're equating that geography=nationality. Which it doesn't. Just because there is an island by absolutely no means does that automatically mean that it is all the same country, and that country isn't limited to that island.

Lets say Scotland had a civil war, where part of it became the 'Republic of Scotland' and the rest stayed British. Does that mean the loyalists have to go live in England/Wales so the 'true scots' can have all of Scotland? No. And British 'nationalist' is a misnomer, 'unionist' is more accurate as the United Kingdom is a union of nations more than a singular one.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

At the present time Northern Island is part of the UK and to instigate a language issue on a tongue barely 0.2% of people speak is quite obviously being unreasonable.

The Anglo Irish agreement Dante was about compromise about two sides coming together and working together in government towards a common purpose. Right now this agreement is in tatters and the use of this pathetic issue a cynical ploy of Sinn Fein to instill discord and direct rule to further their own interests.

Irish Gaelic like Scots Gaelic is a wonderful language and deserves a measure of support so those who wish to speak it in Northern Ireland do so. Hopefully one day it will be spoken by so many to merit equal recognition with English. But to cynically use it in the politics of sectarian division at this time is both disrespectful to Irish culture and counterproductive to its use among Protestant Irish.

At the present time, the form of the Irish border with Ulster after Brexit is being used in the same cynical way by an EU and those opposed to leaving. When the real crisis at the present time, is in the Province's administration which already has left the Anglo Irish Agreement unworkable in its present form.

I don't disagree that the language is nearly a dead one by any means, your spot on there Caratacus, its more for me though that we cannot underestimate the importance in terms of cultural identity that even such a small (and in pragmatic terms) silly thing has. Its rather like Scots Gaelic and the SNP- hardly anyone speaks it (though the number is growing), but Scottish Independence supporters see its equal status with English as being important- even when they do not share it. Now N.Ireland has a far more divided and bitter history than Scotland does, so surely a concession over something as small as language is exactly what is needed and would fulfill the compromise aspect you speak of and that indeed is the foundation of the Power sharing agreement. Politically indeed- giving the Republicans the language (Which as i said is similar to Wales and Scotland already- so for a devolved region, its not exactly extreme, silly or unique) will allow greater discourse to happen. We also cannot pretend the DUP are exactly the innocent party here given their own mismanagement, both sides have justified grievances and both are playing politics (or silly buggers to put it properly!). I'm not saying the language issue isn't being used to score political points and create further division- but its one that can be neatly side-stepped without issue if its consented to on the basis of Scottish and Welsh precedent and thus indeed perhaps even sorting out the whole thing by making the DUP seem the reasonable ones- instead of the current circle of childish one upmanship.

In regards to the brexit issue with the border, indeed it is. Though cynical i'm sure your right- they would argue though it is a matter of perspective. But it should not be a surprise to anyone given the complete lack of planning on the UK's part making an already nightmare task, that much harder. Its interesting watching some of the Chatham House speeches by various ambassadors (US, EU and UK) in regards to negotiations between states- they are never on a 'fair' or on a 'pragmatic' basis- even when that is the language they are couched in for the public. There are no equal relationships. The balance of power is key to who can essentially 'dictate' if not the specific terms, then the structure and framework for the negotiations and its potential outcomes, and its something that is not in the UK's favour- arguably it never could be, but its not helped by our current mess of a government. So the EU and Republic of Ireland using the border to make life difficult for the UK was always going to happen. The current crisis though indeed is an issue, unlike the UK-EU negotiations though it is not one that has to continue to be so- if the language issue is the key 'stopping' factor so far, being used cynically or not- then i do despair at both sides. One side can be disarmed relatively quickly by agreeing to it, at the cost of nothing to the other.

[caratacus]

I don't disagree that the language is nearly a dead one by any means, your spot on there Caratacus, its more for me though that we cannot underestimate the importance in terms of cultural identity that even such a small (and in pragmatic terms) silly thing has. Its rather like Scots Gaelic and the SNP- hardly anyone speaks it (though the number is growing), but Scottish Independence supporters see its equal status with English as being important- even when they do not share it. Now N.Ireland has a far more divided and bitter history than Scotland does, so surely a concession over something as small as language is exactly what is needed and would fulfill the compromise aspect you speak of and that indeed is the foundation of the Power sharing agreement. Politically indeed- giving the Republicans the language (Which as i said is similar to Wales and Scotland already- so for a devolved region, its not exactly extreme, silly or unique) will allow greater discourse to happen. We also cannot pretend the DUP are exactly the innocent party here given their own mismanagement, both sides have justified grievances and both are playing politics (or silly buggers to put it properly!). I'm not saying the language issue isn't being used to score political points and create further division- but its one that can be neatly side-stepped without issue if its consented to on the basis of Scottish and Welsh precedent and thus indeed perhaps even sorting out the whole thing by making the DUP seem the reasonable ones- instead of the current circle of childish one upmanship.

In regards to the brexit issue with the border, indeed it is. Though cynical i'm sure your right- they would argue though it is a matter of perspective. But it should not be a surprise to anyone given the complete lack of planning on the UK's part making an already nightmare task, that much harder. Its interesting watching some of the Chatham House speeches by various ambassadors (US, EU and UK) in regards to negotiations between states- they are never on a 'fair' or on a 'pragmatic' basis- even when that is the language they are couched in for the public. There are no equal relationships. The balance of power is key to who can essentially 'dictate' if not the specific terms, then the structure and framework for the negotiations and its potential outcomes, and its something that is not in the UK's favour- arguably it never could be, but its not helped by our current mess of a government. So the EU and Republic of Ireland using the border to make life difficult for the UK was always going to happen. The current crisis though indeed is an issue, unlike the UK-EU negotiations though it is not one that has to continue to be so- if the language issue is the key 'stopping' factor so far, being used cynically or not- then i do despair at both sides. One side can be disarmed relatively quickly by agreeing to it, at the cost of nothing to the other.

Well if the Language is "almost dead", who is pushing for this nonsense ? Certainly not the Republican Irish who cannot speak it! No, it isn't a major issue within society, but one being used to cause divergence with the DUP by Sinn Fein. I don't call that working together. Remember the issue of requiring the Union Jack not being displayed on government buildings and the disorder stemming from that.

You say it is rather like Gaelic in Scotland. But what would be the reaction of non Gaelic speakers if every road sign in Scotland had to contain the rewording of places in Gaelic! It has happened in Wales, and what a ridiculous situation has come about. Places which have never had a Welsh name having to have a Welsh equivalent for no other reason than just to have one. Resulting in signs for places like Wrexham having the Welsh equivalent Wrecsam!! completely unnecessary. The last time I visited Wales, I even saw a traffic sign that had given a Welsh name for a town in England! It is important to protect and develop a native language, but you don't start with a government forcing bilingualism on everybody.

As for the Irish border issue and Brexit. The government's negotiating position aside, and we all know it's a shambles. The EU is shamelessly attempting to use a difficult situation to foster discord between the British and Irish over the issue no matter what the implications. And I'm sure will no doubt be attempting to do the same for Wales and Scotland in some other capacity.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Well if the Language is "almost dead", who is pushing for this nonsense ? Certainly not the Republican Irish who cannot speak it! No, it isn't a major issue within society, but one being used to cause divergence with the DUP by Sinn Fein. I don't call that working together. Remember the issue of requiring the Union Jack not being displayed on government buildings and the disorder stemming from that.

You say it is rather like Gaelic in Scotland. But what would be the reaction of non Gaelic speakers if every road sign in Scotland had to contain the rewording of places in Gaelic! It has happened in Wales, and what a ridiculous situation has come about. Places which have never had a Welsh name having to have a Welsh equivalent for no other reason than just to have one. Resulting in signs for places like Wrexham having the Welsh equivalent Wrecsam!! completely unnecessary. The last time I visited Wales, I even saw a traffic sign that had given a Welsh name for a town in England! It is important to protect and develop a native language, but you don't start with a government forcing bilingualism on everybody.

As for the Irish border issue and Brexit. The government's negotiating position aside, and we all know it's a shambles. The EU is shamelessly attempting to use a difficult situation to foster discord between the British and Irish over the issue no matter what the implications. And I'm sure will no doubt be attempting to do the same for Wales and Scotland in some other capacity.

I agree that it most certainly is being pushed politically to the fore, the consequence of which is as i think we both agree if i'm reading correctly at least, that it becomes an issue for those of a devout republican persuasion. My point is more that within those constraints, if as can be argued fairly Sinn Fein are using it as a tool of division, which by all accounts is in reaction to Arlene Foster refusing to be investigated for what is quite frankly a monumental up with the 'cash for ash' scandal- even if it was merely incompetence, then the politically savy and smart way would be to take what is honestly a very weak tool (language) and let it happen- it disarms them easily, the DUP look good to all sides and we can carry on. The bigger issue i think though will be the fact there does need to be an inquiry into Arlene Foster and how she messed up so badly and cost around £48 million of public money to be abused- but the DUP stance on ignoring this is a bigger hurdle than the language one.

In regards to Scots Gaelic- it already is on most signs, and growing alas i am sorry to say . Not quite the route Wales has taken, but there is a fund for it to be successively rolled out- partly for the change to be gradual...but also i think because us Scots are tight . In seriousness though, Wales is indeed an extreme case in terms of classes being taught in Welsh and English to boot, but it basically is the recreation/creation/revitalization (whatever stance you take on it) of how nations and nationalism is created and inspired, just...fast tracked (Though there is precedent for it historically- just not typically in modern day northern Europe...so it does make it rather strange). The key i think for them is that its mainly for the younger generations to grow up immersed in the language. But aye, its weird- and for me who has no aptitude for Scots Gaelic, and can barely do German its sort of a nightmare Orwellian concept! But state-centric language endorsement while weird now, was until relatively recently an effective... 'thing' i think its the right word - The promotion of 'English' in its Middle form (For want of a better word) has been pushed...albeit more subtly, by state institutions. France went through a heavy period until 1960ish of destroying its regional languages-, these being languages or variations of languages that aren't technically a 'majority' when started- so i think there is a parallel with what the Welsh are doing, and 'method' in what you rightly describe as madness.

Aye i think all of us would drink to that indeed. But indeed there is a no doubt a none-to-small conception of using the UK's national divisions as a card to play against it in the negotiations, though in a similar way it might be argued as May flying over to a rather...authoritarian seeming Poland (Given the Polish governments usurpation of an independent judiciary), which was not about trade, and all about waving two fingers at the EU for negotiation purposes. The fact it back-fired due to Poland playing its own game with the EU, and the fact Poland lost the moral high ground in that argument due to its perceived increasing authoritarianism is moot- the though was there at least . Granted though i would say N.Ireland has the potential due to its history of a serious conflict if silly buggers are played out over it, it is a weak spot for the UK where the EU can (If we look at things through the lens of power politics) apply pressure, as for it to devolve into conflict, there would have to be a hard border and that solely lays at the door currently of the governments silly arbitrary 'red lines'- which thus far have seemed incredibly flexible in all other areas, but in this case seem to have backed May into a corner due to the DUP on one side against a 'Sea border' and the Republicans and Republic of Ireland who are against a land 'hard border'. Forgoing any kind of hard border would be best for all, but that requires at least a customs union-like agreement that covers the trade conducted over that border either for merely N.Ireland and the Republic, or the EU-UK- all possible sure, it could still even give the UK a free hand globally to sort out our own deals (Though i'm less than optimistic about that currently due to Chinese and US rhetoric and as i know i've probably bored you to tears about before mate, the lack of any creative thinking with the Commonwealth or actual partners who we could meet first on fairer terms to build up a position of strength before tackling the two titans), but its not an option the government can currently entertain due to the arbitrary 'red lines'- I can't actually see apart from a 'hard border' (which would be the disaster of sparking potentially 'the troubles' again, how we'll sort this without one side sacraficing a lot of their 'core' aims- border control, customs union, regulatory alignment, border security, checks etc- to fulfill the EU aims and the UK fully would mean the dreaded hard border. If its a case of who blinks first...we already know, bearing in mind May almost signed up the UK to regulatory alignment et al if not for a very angry DUP phonecall pulling her out due to her potentially then wanting to make Liverpool and the Ports a 'inner hard border' with N.Ireland, its a mess really- and that was without the EU applying significant pressure on the subject...though again today we're about to hear supposedly a detailed speech from May on all this and more...

... are you holding your breath for details here? I'm hoping...but not holding .

[Himster]

And if people love the idea of being a British citizen so much, maybe they should off to Britain instead of occupying somebody else's country?

Pff, yeah right.
Think about it this way: if someone steals your car and after years you find your stolen car, but the thief's son now has your stolen car: it's no longer your car. See it's perfectly fair.
Now you might say: but that's still my car, but remember: shush. They have it now and they have more guns than you, they can use threats of violence but you can't. That's just how it is. The imperialist thief and their descendants are justified by violence/threats of violence, the victim and their decedents seeking reparations are de-legitimized by the exact same criteria.
Funny 'aul world.

[Sir Adrian]

To be honest, it probably would be better in an ideal world if the English had never stepped more than a foot out their own borders. But right now, Britain has been the status quo in Northern Ireland for hundreds of years, so any shift to that is always going to have a natural pushback.

The same is true for RoI and Scotland, and one went its own way while the other will most likely be independent within the next decade.

[Copperknickers II]

Well if the Language is "almost dead", who is pushing for this nonsense ? Certainly not the Republican Irish who cannot speak it! No, it isn't a major issue within society, but one being used to cause divergence with the DUP by Sinn Fein. I don't call that working together. Remember the issue of requiring the Union Jack not being displayed on government buildings and the disorder stemming from that.

You say it is rather like Gaelic in Scotland. But what would be the reaction of non Gaelic speakers if every road sign in Scotland had to contain the rewording of places in Gaelic! It has happened in Wales, and what a ridiculous situation has come about. Places which have never had a Welsh name having to have a Welsh equivalent for no other reason than just to have one. Resulting in signs for places like Wrexham having the Welsh equivalent Wrecsam!! completely unnecessary. The last time I visited Wales, I even saw a traffic sign that had given a Welsh name for a town in England! It is important to protect and develop a native language, but you don't start with a government forcing bilingualism on everybody.

As for the Irish border issue and Brexit. The government's negotiating position aside, and we all know it's a shambles. The EU is shamelessly attempting to use a difficult situation to foster discord between the British and Irish over the issue no matter what the implications. And I'm sure will no doubt be attempting to do the same for Wales and Scotland in some other capacity.

I'm going to try a little experiment here, and replace some words in your post:

"But what would be the reaction of non French speakers if every road sign in France had to contain the names of places in French! It has happened in Italy, and what a ridiculous situation has come about. Places which have never had an Italian name having to have an Italian equivalent for no other reason than just to have one. Resulting in signs for places like Trent having the Italian equivalent Trento!! completely unnecessary. The last time I visited Italy, I even saw a traffic sign that had given an Italian name for a town in France!"

Yep, what an utterly ridiculous situation, for a country to have its own national language on signs(!) I'd also point out a fact I thought was quite blindingly obvious but apparently not: languages tend to have their own names for cities in neighbouring countries. For example, the Italians call London 'Londra'. Not because London ever had an Italian population, but just because that's the name of London in Italian, so if you're in an airport in Italy and your target audience is Italians travelling to London, you're going to use the word 'Londra' rather than London, otherwise you'd simply be speaking English. The same applies to places like Wrecsam. It may have been several centuries since Wrexham itself was Welsh-speaking, but that doesn't mean Welsh-speaking people in Denbighshire don't use the term 'Wrecsam' every day. Indeed there's a 15th century Welsh poem which references 'Sion ap Madog, Alecsander i Wrecsam' (Sean son of Madoc, the Alexander of Wrexham). Wrexham was actually founded by the Anglo-Saxons but then reconquered by the Welsh afterwards and played an important part in the rebellion of Owain Glyndawr.