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Thread: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Shame on you, Turkey, for the Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, and even the Italian genocide.

    That's right. The last Ottoman sultan Mehmed VI, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, and President Erdogan are all personally responsible for the actions of Mithridates VI of Pontus (Mithridates the Great) and his decision to kill all the Romans and Italians of Anatolia in 89-88 BC, an event known in modern parlance as the Asiatic Vespers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_Vespers

    Shame on the Turks who didn't live in Asia Minor yet and wouldn't even arrive there until a thousand years later!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap.



    The Romans, led by Sulla, kicked Pontus in the arse, though, on several occasions in mainland Greece and then in Anatolia. The First Mithridatic War basically ended in 85 BC with an unfavorable peace treaty for Pontus that had them surrender their new conquests in Anatolia plus a bunch of annual tributary gold to the Roman Republic. Obviously in hindsight it turned out to be an incredibly poor decision by Mithridates VI to antagonize the Romans to that extent, but do you think it was a good or bad strategy for getting the city-states of western Anatolia onto his side? If his armies hadn't lost pivotal battles against Sulla, he could have easily capitalized on the brutal removal of Roman influence in Anatolia and cemented his rule and suzerainty over the region. For a time it probably had the dual effect of cowing those who would dare to challenge him while also appeasing those who didn't want Rome there in the first place, especially the abusive tax collectors, the publicani.

    So, was it a wise move in the short-run? Hypothetically speaking, if the armies of Pontus hadn't gotten wrecked by Sulla, it could have even benefited Mithridates in the long run. I know that sounds like something straight out of The Prince by Machiavelli, but it's an honest question. Just how effective was genocide of this scale? We all know that ultimately it only served to enrage the Romans, steel their resolve to launch an invasion into Asia Minor, and put Pontus in its place. That's not always the case, though. Sometimes a group that becomes the victim of a genocide doesn't get to strike back like that or doesn't have the political or military power to do so. It's also the ancient world we're talking about here. There certainly wasn't a United Nations around yet to send the perpetrators a strongly worded letter of their disapproval.
    Last edited by alhoon; February 23, 2018 at 12:52 PM. Reason: censored word changed.

  2. #2
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Actually i was just watching that video (first mithridatic war) earlier today ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #3
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Actually i was just watching that video (first mithridatic war) earlier today ^^
    Yeah, I also watched that video and felt inspired to create this little thread. I feel as though it's somewhat forgotten in Roman history that this happened, even though it's pretty momentous. It's not quite the disaster of losing much of their armies to Hannibal during the late 3rd century BC, but it is remarkable how they were thoroughly removed from Anatolia and systematically so. Even the Romans, who had wiped out and enslaved the population of the city state of Carthage, weren't so thorough as Mithridates, given how neighboring Punic-speaking cities like Atiqa (Atig) were untouched. That's because they surrendered to the Romans without a fight. It reminds one of the Mongol conquest of Asia: surrender now and you will be spared, resist and you will be annihilated, basically. Mithridates VI didn't really bother with that option. He just had everyone killed if they spoke Latin or came from Italy, unless they were slaves who helped to kill their masters.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 23, 2018 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Continuity.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    The only benefit I can think of off the top of my head is that it completely bound to Mithradates the allies that took part in the killing; they can't turn around halfway through the war and try to make things right with Rome, or even just fence-straddle. Do or die, sink or swim, in it for the long haul, live by the sword, die by the sword; pick whatever idiomatic cliche you feel appropriate, this was the situation Mithradates' allies found themselves in.

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    Vardan the Great's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yeah, I also watched that video and felt inspired to create this little thread. I feel as though it's somewhat forgotten in Roman history that this happened, even though it's pretty momentous. It's not quite the disaster of losing much of their armies to Hannibal during the late 3rd century BC, but it is remarkable how they were thoroughly removed from Anatolia and systematically so. Even the Romans, who had wiped out and enslaved the population of the city state of Carthage, weren't so thorough as Mithridates, given how neighboring Punic-speaking cities like Atiqa (Atig) were untouched. That's because they surrendered to the Romans without a fight. It reminds one of the Mongol conquest of Asia: surrender now and you will be spared, resist and you will be annihilated, basically. Mithridates VI didn't really bother with that option. He just had everyone killed if they spoke Latin or came from Italy, unless they were slaves who helped to kill their masters.
    What about Romans preforming genocides against Gallic and Celtic tribes? Only Caesar killed more than a million of Gallic population. Massive slaughters all across the Western Europe and British islands you compare with 100.000 killed Italians. They were horrible times. Things were happening 2000s years ago. What is bad that they didn't change as the time was passing. The facts of Armenian and Jewish genocides indicate that people had no progress in this scope. Now it must be persecuted and judged. There must be limits of human behaviour on both individual and state levels.

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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    I'd recommend The Last King by Michael Curtis Ford if anyone interested in a historical novel based on Mithridates VI, the last king of Pontus.
    The Armenian Issue

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vardan the Great View Post
    What about Romans preforming genocides against Gallic and Celtic tribes? Only Caesar killed more than a million of Gallic population. Massive slaughters all across the Western Europe and British islands you compare with 100.000 killed Italians. They were horrible times. Things were happening 2000s years ago. What is bad that they didn't change as the time was passing. The facts of Armenian and Jewish genocides indicate that people had no progress in this scope. Now it must be persecuted and judged. There must be limits of human behaviour on both individual and state levels.
    Oh , oh , you mean this?!



    Next time people would claim Mongol conduct genocide against human race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    The genocide apparently was of latins/latinates, though it is impressive that Mithridates, with so much power gained, still couldn't find some decent general to win a battle where he had a 3 to 1 numerical superiority to Rome. A bit similar to the fiasco by the Seleukid empire.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 25, 2018 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Disruptive/continuity.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #9
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Glaive View Post
    The only benefit I can think of off the top of my head is that it completely bound to Mithradates the allies that took part in the killing; they can't turn around halfway through the war and try to make things right with Rome, or even just fence-straddle. Do or die, sink or swim, in it for the long haul, live by the sword, die by the sword; pick whatever idiomatic cliche you feel appropriate, this was the situation Mithradates' allies found themselves in.
    That's an excellent point. It's like when a novice or amateur street hoodlum gets inducted as a foot soldier in the mafia and gets involved in his first big criminal operation. There's no going back. Unless of course he's willing to wear a wire for the feds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    The genocide apparently was of latins/latinates, though it is impressive that Mithridates, with so much power gained, still couldn't find some decent general to win a battle where he had a 3 to 1 numerical superiority to Rome. A bit similar to the fiasco by the Seleukid empire.
    Exactly. If he had a commander who was competent enough to defeat Sulla in Greece, the Romans would have been in serious trouble in that arena. The Romans had already basically controlled Greece for half a century by this point, but their grip on things was shaky as proven by the invasion of Pontic forces and the uprisings of Greeks such as the Athenians. Things would have been much worse for the Romans had they not just put down the revolts in Italy during the the Social War of 91-88 BC (and basically made all the Italian allies as Roman citizens in a grand compromise). If this war had dragged out instead, Mithridates could have perhaps consolidated his hold of Anatolia, the Aegean Islands, and mainland Greece. If Mithridates VI managed to entrench his forces there then the retaking of Greece by the Romans would have been seriously delayed, along with their other ventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vardan the Great View Post
    What about Romans preforming genocides against Gallic and Celtic tribes? Only Caesar killed more than a million of Gallic population. Massive slaughters all across the Western Europe and British islands you compare with 100.000 killed Italians. They were horrible times. Things were happening 2000s years ago. What is bad that they didn't change as the time was passing. The facts of Armenian and Jewish genocides indicate that people had no progress in this scope. Now it must be persecuted and judged. There must be limits of human behaviour on both individual and state levels.
    A few things:

    1) You're just going to use the ancient historian Plutarch's estimate of Julius Caesar killing a million Gauls as irrefutable gospel, then? Aided by archaeology and critical examination of primary sources, the estimates of modern scholars are usually much lower than that. That being said, there were entire tribes who were wiped out, but some were simply sold into slavery and forcefully assimilated that way. Forced assimilation is still technically a genocide, but not quite the same as extermination to a man.

    2) The example of the Gallic Wars almost certainly strengthens my point about how Rome dealt with its enemies, including Carthage and Punic peoples in the Mediterranean. Caesar didn't just invade Gaul to engage in a big extermination-fest of every Celtic speaker he could find. Every single Gallic tribe allied with the Romans were obviously untouched, as were those who surrendered before fighting began. It's similar to how Rome burned Carthage to the ground and sold its inhabitants into slavery, but left any other Punic city that surrendered to them untouched, like the neighboring metropolis of Atiqa (in modern Tunisia). Or for that matter, it's similar to how the Mongols operated in Asia during the 13th century: surrender and be spared, resist and be annihilated.

    3) This thread isn't about genocides in general (even though I facetiously mentioned the Turkish genocides of Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians in the OP). It's about the one committed by Mithridates VI of Pontus and how this could have benefited him had it not been for his embarrassing defeats against the outnumbered Roman forces of Sulla in Greece. You had a chance to address that, but instead you decided to bring the Gallic Wars into this, for whatever reason. Caesar's genocide of Gauls didn't target every Gallic person in Gaul, whereas Mithridates VI encouraged his Anatolian allies to literally hunt down and kill every single Latin-speaking Roman they could find, minus their Italian slaves if they helped in the killing of their masters.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Oh , oh , you mean this?!



    Next time people would claim Mongol conduct genocide against human race.
    No offense to anyone who enjoys his podcasts, but I seriously can't listen to the guy for more than 10 minutes. He just drones on and on, for hours on end, about loosely related if not tangential stuff before he finally arrives at the point. He also holds a bachelor's degree in history, not a master's, not a PhD, and he earned that degree decades ago. He's not some real academic, he's more of an entertainer. I'm not very entertained by him, though.

  10. #10
    bekiristein's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Genocide of Italians in Turkey

    I wonder ,what to.their properties?

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