Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Thread about Media

  1. #1
    Nordling's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Warsaw
    Posts
    488

    Default Thread about Media

    Hi everybody,

    I recently picked up Media Atropatene as my next campaign since conquering world with Pergamon felt just so artificial (its called a city-state for a reason!). Reconquering Middle East to form Median Empire once again feels justfied and not far-stretched for me - if Parthians could do that while being nomad people a while back then why the heck can't former eastern overlords do that?

    The campaign itself is very enjoyable with really hard early game. Maintaining relationship with Seleucids so they don't rip me to pieces with the hellenic heavy inf and fighting Armenia ajd Kartli on the north and getting war declared by Bosphorians who kept pushing me to the limits was really fun however also a bit stressing. Im currently fighting Indians for the control of the far right of the map while Seleucids got their ass handed to them by Galatians and Egypt and it's hell of a time. I was never fond of wars on esstern part of the map but I just might change my opinion on that.

    Oh, and btw those Indian elephants are terribly strong! Charged my 5-men-deep Persian hoplites and wrecked it with not much of a hassle. Good thing that I had my archers shower them with arrows and rout them finally as my front line nearly collapsed! Sure am looking forward to add them to my forces as AoR units.

    Now to move on to tue roster itself. I really like how they are archery based with so many units having bows as ranged weapon. Satrap guard spearmen make for an excellent reserve with good bows and nice ammo, while being able to join flank fights or pin enemy to hammer them in the rear with lancers charge. Currently my favourite unit in their roster with lancers right behind them. Talking about lancers I don't feel like the Atropatean lancers should have super heavy shock cavalry type assigned - they certainly don't look super heavy to me. Imo cataphracts should be the only super heavy cav around. Also, lack of any horse archers feels restraining a lot. I don't know if they should have any from historical standpoint but they are living in an area known for archery and horse breeding so that feels natural for me that they could field at least light HA.JMO ofc

    Let's move on to critique now. Their roster feels somewhat weaker than all of factions around. Cavalry is on the point but then again, no HA really hinders mobility of your cav. I tend to put my cav near to some archers, most often those elite spear/bows so that I can effictively rout enemy cav. Their melee cav uses swords do they get rekt while fighting enemy spear cav. Lancers are on point but I have yet to fight reformed Parthians (they are busy finishing off Bactria with an ally and will be a worthy opponent in the future) so we'll see how I will fare against them. I suspect they will prove to be a problem though. I was performing a very careful diplomacy dance with Seleucids so they don't declare war on me before their satrapies rebel - I felt that I got no chance against their elite hoplites and they would massacre my lines.

    I've got sort of mixed feelings about them. I really like how unique their roster is and how units complement each other. Yet I need to do a lot of micro to effixiently use my forces. Their infantry feels really mediocre (as they should, I guess) but they ha e no top tier units to compliment this gaping weakness. Archers feel natural for them but they're nothing special. To make their archers more useful I would grant better bows to their basic "Persian archers" (the one with 175 range) to emphasise that they are archer civ. Right now Greek archers and Persian archers got similar stats with same quality of bows - that's really not how it was tho, right? They get heavy elite archers later on and they are fun to use. But nearly all factions around get such archers but that should be the one part that Persians excel at, right? Meanwhile Parthains get upgraded heavy spears with phalanx, better quality archers and armoured HA. I would give them some sort of edge in archery, that's all. Right now they struggle too much vs. other cultures

    Secondly, I compared their roster with Parthians and I'm kinda worried bout war with them. Their whole roster feels superior in almost every way. I get that Parthians conquered the Middle East and made Medians their satrapy, but we're changing the history here, right? I'm rebuilding the Old Median Empire and for that I need an appropriate war machine.

    Next on, I have to mention their elite spears from lvl 3 rax. I cannot find any use for them in my army. They don't get bows so they lose utility on flanks where spear/bows excel. Neither do they get a place in my front line - without phalanx they have much less staying power than Persian Hoplites. I bring at least 3 of those to every fight to make sure that my front stays intact while I try to outmanuever enemies on flanks. To make things worse those elite spears are formed with nobles making replenishment a pain in the... hoplites hoplite use up 2nd class citizens and let me save precious nobles for elite cav anf elite spear/bows.

    To sum up my rant about their roster, I need to mention the problem with replenishment. All their elite (which means almost all decent) units are of noble origin - that goes for axemen, archers, spear/bows, spearmen and heavy cav - making fielding a strong army really tough. Almost all other units are subpar and useless on the battlefield.

    Before posting my recommendations for the faction I will say this first: I know that Persians got owned by Greeks and Parthians. Thst their armies were too poorly trained to fight both of them effectively. But we're making our own history here - hell, we can build Gaulic empire and conquer Carthage with Arverni, or Rome with Macedon. I'm just trying to stress that with right reforms and a good leadership Persians could have restored their empire. From what I know, one Atropatean king was once also sitting on Parthian throne so I guess that everything's possible here.

    My suggestions for the Persians are nothing ground-breaking as I don't want to make them OP but any means. I just would love to see their strong points be a bit more notable in the fight.
    1) make their Persian archers a bit more expensive and equip them with better bows to further stress ancient tradition of archery in these parts.
    2) make their high tier axemen, spearmen and archers a 2nd class citizen, not 1st class as it is. Restrain 1st class population usage only to elite lancers, heavy javcav and spear/bow satrap guards. 6 noble class units is a lot IMO.
    4) maybe add reform for them to make those transitions smoother and to upgrade elite sparabara (regular spear/bow inf) upgrade from medium inf to heavy? So that player doesn't have to rely only on hoplites when fighting enemy inf. Just a thought.


    What do you guys think? I would love to hear your ideas and hope that devs will see this
    Great work with the game DeI team!

    Cheers,
    Nordling
    Last edited by Nordling; February 20, 2018 at 04:33 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    Looking at their unit roster it doesn't seem that bad. Speaking from the perspective of fighting against Media, Sparabara and Elite Sparabara are relatively decent units due to the versatility. They will not hold out like the more familiar heavy infantry of the major factions but not many eastern infantry are able to do so. Honestly, they're better than Persian Hoplites IMO. Persian Hoplites may be hoplites with phalanx but they're sub-par compared to both hoplite and phalangite Greek style infantry (this is to say they'll get wrecked by both in extended melee).

    I'm not sure it's fair to compare the level three barracks units to the later infantry units Parthia can get. Those Parthian units require a somewhat late reform. It appears the elite infantry are more geared toward being used as shock infantry. The Apple Bearers are a more mobile spear unit compared to Persian Hoplites. Both have decent stats. Both also fit with the transition to more mobile, less rigid tactics brought into play from some of the reform periods. I see no reason why both couldn't supplement the other infantry perfectly well.

    You might have a reasonable argument for the archery units. I have no idea if it would fit historically but perhaps another archery unit should be available. Similar to how Parthia has elite archers > foot archers > persian archers. I'm guessing heavy archers are supposed to be the equivalent to the elite archers in that analogy.

    Again, I don't know if it fits historically for them to have HA's or not. It does appear there is a decent mix of heavy/shock and skirmisher cavalry though. HA's shouldn't be a huge concern when several of your infantry options have bows and you have access to archers/slingers. Fighting the Media as Parthia is somewhat of a burden for this reason, in fact (HA's don't perform well against concentrated missile fire).

    Not sure on the population classes. It does present a problem if all of the decent units share the same population class. So you might have a valid argument there as well.

    A reform may not fit historically but I'd agree it should probably exist. Presumably factions that didn't historically have reforms would have followed suit if they had survived and maintained independence long enough.

    In any case, I know which faction I'm going to try next . Maybe if I play them extensively I can get a better understanding of your perspective, and the reasoning behind your critique.

  3. #3
    Nordling's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Warsaw
    Posts
    488

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    Quote Originally Posted by Iridium31 View Post
    Looking at their unit roster it doesn't seem that bad. Speaking from the perspective of fighting against Media, Sparabara and Elite Sparabara are relatively decent units due to the versatility. They will not hold out like the more familiar heavy infantry of the major factions but not many eastern infantry are able to do so. Honestly, they're better than Persian Hoplites IMO. Persian Hoplites may be hoplites with phalanx but they're sub-par compared to both hoplite and phalangite Greek style infantry (this is to say they'll get wrecked by both in extended melee).

    I'm not sure it's fair to compare the level three barracks units to the later infantry units Parthia can get. Those Parthian units require a somewhat late reform. It appears the elite infantry are more geared toward being used as shock infantry. The Apple Bearers are a more mobile spear unit compared to Persian Hoplites. Both have decent stats. Both also fit with the transition to more mobile, less rigid tactics brought into play from some of the reform periods. I see no reason why both couldn't supplement the other infantry perfectly well.

    You might have a reasonable argument for the archery units. I have no idea if it would fit historically but perhaps another archery unit should be available. Similar to how Parthia has elite archers > foot archers > persian archers. I'm guessing heavy archers are supposed to be the equivalent to the elite archers in that analogy.

    Again, I don't know if it fits historically for them to have HA's or not. It does appear there is a decent mix of heavy/shock and skirmisher cavalry though. HA's shouldn't be a huge concern when several of your infantry options have bows and you have access to archers/slingers. Fighting the Media as Parthia is somewhat of a burden for this reason, in fact (HA's don't perform well against concentrated missile fire).

    Not sure on the population classes. It does present a problem if all of the decent units share the same population class. So you might have a valid argument there as well.

    A reform may not fit historically but I'd agree it should probably exist. Presumably factions that didn't historically have reforms would have followed suit if they had survived and maintained independence long enough.

    In any case, I know which faction I'm going to try next . Maybe if I play them extensively I can get a better understanding of your perspective, and the reasoning behind your critique.
    Thanks for your input

    I agree with you on the fact that sparabara are very versatile. I bring 3-4 of them in almost any army cuz they can support middle phalanx + shower manuevring enemy forces with arrows. I don't use them in front cuz good sword inf or similar will chew through them with relative ease making a hole in the middle. Hoplites just don't die so easily. I don't know, maybe I'm biased towards hoplites after playing only carthage and hellenic factions byt that strat works very well and my front line was never broken, except 3-units-indian-war-elephants charge (I still wake up to that memory at night).

    On apple bearers: they are only spearmen and while they are quite decent ones they don't have bows. That's the utility you lose on your flanks when fielding them instead of satrap spear guards who tend to bring bows into the fight. While they could be used as front line fighters, they are nowhere near expendable as replenishment of them costs you dearlly. I'd much rather use up my nobles population to break through enemy formations with elite lancers. Much more effective & much glorious

    On HA: I don't mean give them strong HA or armoured HA. I merely suggest that maybe they should have just a basic HA unit. This hindrance is mitigated by the fact that you can have an easy access to AoR HA by conquering Armenia/Parthia/Caucasus. Nearly all your neighbours can field them - maybe you could too? Just a thought.

    I really believe they could use some archery to maoe their elite archers really one of the best. From all I know, all depictions of ancient Persian/Babylonian/Assyrian armies that we have are that of archers or guys with spear & bows. Maybe there's a reason for that

    By all means, dig into Media. They're really fun. The ancient Persian warfare if spear & bow is very well shown in their roster and feels really pleasant to use. I really like what DeI team did with this faction.

  4. #4
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gdańsk, Poland
    Posts
    11,132

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    I wilk look into those pop classes and maybe rebalance certain units to make them more useful/unique.
    Official DeI Instagram Account! https://www.instagram.com/divideetimperamod/
    Official DeI Facebook Page! https://www.facebook.com/divideetimperamod

  5. #5
    Nordling's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Warsaw
    Posts
    488

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    I wilk look into those pop classes and maybe rebalance certain units to make them more useful/unique.
    Thanks KAM, much appreciated

  6. #6

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    They're easily my favorite faction after having played them to late game. The only other faction like them is Saba, who doesn't have nearly the same cavalry power. Their real gaping problem is infantry with staying power. A decent axe unit using T2 population would probably solve the problem and fit thematically.

    That said, using the right AoR units is a good stand-in as-is. What I've done is have throwaway light or medium troops absorbing the charge of your enemy. I would run 4 units of these, spread out in a thin line, in front of my force's main body which is mostly composed of archer/melee hybrids. It's extremely effective for the cost.

    Early game you can use your own levy spears, Armenian Levies, Georgians, Persian levies, and so on. 300-man units work really well here for staying power. Using them as your tarpit up front while your Shield-Bearers or Elite Shield shoot allows you to maximize the potential of their hybrid nature. Once ammo is depleted, you can send better troops into the fray as well at the flanks to great effect. Since they're spears, they can be behind and to the sides of your main line and handle cavalry quite well. They may need support if the foe is cataphracts or similar, but that's where your cavalry strengths help.

    Later in the game your throwaway frontline can be transformed into heavier or even shock troops like Phrygian Axemen, Karian Axemen, Galatian Chosen Swords, Hellenic Peltasts, or Hellenic Infantry. This allows them to trade blows better, and they're still Foreigner population. In this comp, Elite Shield Bearers are the majority of your foot troops by late game. It's affordable in population and upkeep, and can assault cities extremely well due to volume of fire. Your frontline becomes largely shock infantry for assaulting the walls.

    This kind of composition also really does well against Parthia and nomad factions due to the mass archer fire you can bring to bear. At minimum 10 of your units carry bows, and over half of them have more armor than the average horseman. You win archery duels against everything you're likely to face.

    The layout of your army, in detail, follows:
    • Front Line: 4-6 wide of throwaway or shock troops, spread thin
    • Second Line: Pure archers in the middle, with Shield Bearers on the flank. Normal spread, though sometimes I stack archers thin in front of & behind each other for a small blob of archery power in the center of my line.
    • Flanks: Cavalry
    • Reserve: Satrap Guard Spearmen/Archers, behind the Shield Bearers

    Composition (early & cheap) would be:
    • 4-6 Median/Armenian/Persian Levy Spears
    • 6-8 Shield Bearers
    • 4 Eastern Archers
    • 3 Light (Javelin) or Persian Medium Cavalry
    • 1 Cavalry General, your preference

    Composition (late & elite) would be:
    • 4 Phrygian Axemen/Galatian Chosen/Scythian Warriors/etc
    • 8 Elite Shield Bearers
    • 4 Median Armored/Syrian Armored/Scythian Armored Archers
    • 2 Median Medium Cavalry
    • 1 Cavalry General, your preference
    • 1 Heavy Cavalry, your preference
    Last edited by ablebodie; February 22, 2018 at 12:36 PM.

  7. #7
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
    Artifex Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    11,588

    Default Re: Thread about Media

    Good post @ablebodie
    Media is a very distinctive and special faction indeed.




Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •