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Thread: Mending the break

  1. #21
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Mending the break

    Shed members will always be considered head moderators in RP's. Along and in collaboration with the RP-creator of course.
    Perhaps you'll want to re-word that bit, then, because that sounds substantially different to the role you're claiming there, Gandalf. "There to mediate if needed" and "all Shed are head mods of all games" are imply very different levels of involvement in people's games, and I can see why some view the idea, as Brew has worded it, as imperialistic.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Mending the break

    Well, they’d be approached on an individual basis. In an ideal world the game can run with minimal interference by the shed except helping with moderation duties or resolving disputes between players, with the RP creator taking the most active role in the running of their own RPG.

    What would someone envision the shed doing otherwise? It’d be counterproductive to usurp an rp creator’s influence over their own game and thats juxtaposed to what we are trying to accomplish here.


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  3. #23
    Lord William's Avatar Duke of Nottingham
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    Default Re: Mending the break

    If you want my honest opinion I think the shed should just be disbanded. If someone has an idea to create a game, they can poll the community and just ask Hex to make the space. the section is already moderated by staff and the game creators/local moderators can handle the in game violations. I mean the shed is pretty unnecessary

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  4. #24

    Default Re: Mending the break

    I'm also convinced an RPG Oligarchy is a bad way to run this forum. Rule by committee seems not only to be the worst way to run a game, but the worst way to run this section. We need either a single benevolent dictator or just flat out rule by consensus of a majority of players, a simple majority rule for all decisions. Personally I prefer the benevolent dictator option.

  5. #25
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Mending the break

    I am busy formulating a response to everything that has been said and not has been responded to in full or needs clarification from my end. I have been swamped with issues in my private life this week where most of you are aware off and on top of that I have been busy on other parts of the forum that required my immediate attention.

    I hope to have it posted (before) tonight, due to the same private issues I will not be online here during the weekend.

  6. #26
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Mending the break

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    Dear shed,

    1. We're likely not going to gain new members. Since we are more or less dependent on the flow of traffic in TWC for fresh faces, we likely won't see large influxes. I don't see this as even one of our top five problems right now if this community is going to survive.

    2. Your efforts to curb toxicity have clearly been unsuccessful, and the failure of Sunset is direct evidence.

    3. The imperial attitude of the shed towards players and members is extremely unfortunate. Speaking frankly, you're not better than us. Stop acting like it.

    4. I don't see much at all of anything I discussed here, which isn't very surprising. Lack of diversity of perspective and general self awareness are two of the problems facing the shed, but always in its blind spot.
    1. I think everyone agrees on this point. That's why we are asking for innovative idea's. For all I care we are going to that site you once mentioned which had GoT games and we lure them over to here.

    2. Sunset failed because significant players within our community were busy and (in most cases) had been clear in stating that would be the case. Barry has stated this more than once and he also said this in the Whiskey server so I do not know where you got the idea this was not the case as you mentioned in one of your other messages. We simply don't have influence over everything that happens in your private life and thus it happens that you can't commit to a level you would like. Furthermore you haven't been on the discord for quite some time now so how exactly would you know there still is toxicity? After some recent showdown's the mood on the server has been better than ever before if you ask me.

    3. What do you mean with Imperial attitude? Neither shed or myself ever said we were any better than whoever "us" might be. Nor will it ever be the case.

    4. I have opted not to disclose what anyone said so they could be blunt. I have added everything that was carried by more and even mentioned how many people came back to me with a particular opinion, hence the mention's of "6 out of 7 agree". I'm sorry that it might not be your opinions that scored the best but I did nothing but voice what the community had said. If I may be blunt, and I dare say you like it when I am. The community did not share in most points you have brought to the table in the conversation(s) we had.

    Most of your other points you posted in this reply were addressed by Della so I won't drag out old cows because I/we agree with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    The shed already has too much control, the shed should diminish its control and give players more freedom.
    Mate, that's exactly what caused this whole situation. Shed recocnized that it has been too linent for quite some time. As I have mentioned before the road to a new policy began when Gandalf and myself were included in the new shed. I will tell you something I have told other's also. The fact you don't see something happening does not mean something does not happen. Also, players already have all the freedom in the world to do stuff IC.. it's not like Shed needs to or ever did green light your every move.. In the end every action one makes IC is his own to make. Neither we of GM's will ever hold your hand to go on an endeavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    That's not what Barry told me or what I observed. Oz did a pretty good job of putting people in places where they could RP in a manner and with other players they liked. Britain was doing quite well and then everything abruptly ground to a halt.
    As I said earlier, Barry has been vocal on multiple occasions that it mainly had to do with important people who couldn't participate in the game. I applaud what you did in Britain to keep the game rolling there. Sadly one theater was not enough to keep the entire game going. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you as a player and I wish that everyone had your fire and dedication but we cannot all be the same I fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    The problem is with leadership. LM isn't interested in half the games played and in the other half of the games he plays in we often end up waiting for his replies because he takes important characters. He'll be off playing CK2 and we'll all be left in the lurch in the meantime. BF has one or two days per week max where he can even be online.
    This is exactly why LM has shown leadership in appointing Gandalf, who has been a sort of pseudo-shed for years anyway and asked me to join. I have been in contact with LM since the end of the last WotR game on how we could reform to better stand the test of time. The appointment of Gandalfus and myself also brought balance to the shed. Adding two people who are significantly active and are both in European time zones so there may be a Shed member online at every given moment. Leadership does not mean you are obliged to participate in every game on the forum. Leadership means being there to show the way when it is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    I posted a public poll and received enough interest (I needed 4-6 players) to move forward with writing rules. One of the problems here is that so many of us still are under the false assumption that we have to create games where 10-15 people are needed to play. Nobody but me, I think, has realized that is a bad way to go. I started YATS in the same way and it had a good run (I needed six but ended up with 11) in the autumn and BP is still alive and kicking. So far BP has lasted longer than Sunset and GoT and shows no signs of trouble at all. We have five players. Nothing was shoved down the community's throat. I offered an alternative to 4-5 more players to join me in a setting that hasn't been tried for five years over...nothing. No other proposals were floating around at the time. I spoke with Barry and he said Sunset was on an indefinite hiatus. And since I refuse to join the RPG discord for obvious reasons, I don't feel like I did anything wrong at all in making my proposals. You could have actually posted your concerns in the weeks the thread was open. I can't read minds.
    This was around the time I was joining shed and thus was not yet as involved as I am at this moment in time. I recognize that your idea to go for smaller games has been a good move and I dare say I have been nothing but positive in the endeavor for the ACW game. Shed is recognizing that these games seem to hold the future and we do nothing to oppose this. Frankly the topic of one thread RP's has been high on our agenda because of their relative successes. Again listning to the community and the outcome of my conversations the development of the Viking RP started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    To summarize, the most important takeaway here is that we do not need consensus or even a majority of players to agree on what game to play. We need games that require fewer people so they stay viable for longer periods of time. Besides, let's stop pretending that nobody secretly works on games and then rolls out a proposal, that's how 2017 started with everyone abandoning GoT for WOTR.
    Consensus no, there will never be a game that appeases to absolutely everyone. We only need a viable amount of players to keep a game rolling. I'm positive that you would not have continued BP if it were only you +1. Even in that case I/we would not do anything against it if the two of you would've kept it going and it was successful.

    Furthermore I don't really see a bad thing in people developing stuff, for instance I know that Trot has been developing games for quite a while. Whilst I am first to agree that in the begin of 2017 it was badly timed to launch a proposal whilst an other game was faltering I might add that wotr2 went on for quite a number of weeks without significant slow periods besides my own absense which caused some issues with the whole Lancaster/York aspect of the game. Yet as I explained somewhere above that was handled great by the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    I would have killed for another moderator for YATS. I asked constantly. Nobody volunteered to help out in a substantial way. What, praytell, was I supposed to do? Killed off one of my own characters and burned the other one's bank down in the first few turns by the way. Sooo much evidence of cheating.
    I am with you here. Many people declined your plea for help. I do add that I have said I would be willing to help out but was not able and tbh am still not able to roll battles because I do not grasp the concept. I'm not convicting you or calling you evil in any way for continuing as the sole moderator, in a way I find it quite admirable. Yet it is my personal belief, as it has always been that self moderation should not be tolerable. I have stated numerous times since I joined shed that I am now accepting the responsibility my rank gives and will always be available for these situations. BF can attest that even though I refused to partake in his Japanese-RP I would still be there to help him with moderation if the need arose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    1. So there was no consultation about the latest WOTR, Sunset, or GoT?

    2. RL commitments are real, but that has also become the alibi for just straight up inactivity because you're bored with a game and would rather play CK2. The latest WOTR failed because of this. Half, maybe more,of our leaderhship isn't able to dedicate the time necessary to run this forum. When the same thing happened with me in around 2012 when I was busy with school, I resigned from the Shed and left it to more active people. This is the ugly truth we're not addressing and this is the heart of the problem.

    3. I would never move forward with a game unless I reached the number of interested people that I need. Usually 4-6 now. Frankly it doesn't matter if there's not unanimous agreement. We have multiple fora and multiple games can run at once, ironically it seems that the shed disagrees with this and would rather stifle games and funnel everyone into the same thing.
    1. I was not in shed during wotr or GoT, yet I'm positive that this was the case with WotR as was with Sunset.

    2. The latest wotr failed because half the characters were underaged and couldn't be used to an extent everyone is used to. Which on it's own caused a loss of interest from the people I/we consider top posters and that ensured the dimming of the ember that fuels the game. We are all volunteers here and I am of the opinion that nobody needs to explain in great detail why they are not here when they are not here. I feel that this is mostly aimed at LM, whom had one of the best reasons one can consider to be here less then he even wanted to be himself. Both LM and Bf have made the admirable effort to get more shed activity by appointing Gandalfus and myself.

    3. Shed does not necessarily disagree but is realistic. The best and longest games always ran when there was one or the other game running was GSTK which had more to do with it's own player base then something else imo. It's simply unrealistic that someone can keep track of +2 chars in WotR, YATS and/or GoT as example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus


    I rest my case. For the last 18 months I've only been able to play Civ 6 and I've had a lot of free time to help. I'v volunteered to help, LM has denied me the ability to participate in any sort of forum leadership. I do not know the reason for this, though I would be interested in his explanation now.
    Same as mentioned earlier. You. nor I nor anyone can even remotely begin to judge someone for playing a game. Nor should we. We are all committed to RP's but we have lives of our own and if we wish to play a round of CK2 before we get to replies we will do so and everyone will need to respect that. Long ago American, British, Dutchman and many other's have died fighting so I can chose what I want to do at any given time. I hope everyone will continue to keep making their own choices on what they wish to do. When we start making RP's obligations we take out the fun part and this in no way is beneficiary to our games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus
    We don't need consensus, we need a quorum. It's time everyone starts to understand that. As for the shed, we can't have a group claiming all this power and then not hold them accountable for problems. If they had been more diligent we wouldn't be in this mess. I find it hard to sympathize because I've been warning them in private about the discord chat toxicity and other issues for about a year now. Their decision to largely disregard veteran players was their own choice.

    I don't think you're being hostile, I think you're speaking frankly. There's nothing wrong with that.
    Power is relative. We can say things but ultimately if the community disagrees or simply does not "abide" we can do nothing. Yes shed is accountable to an agree and anyone reading this thread must have some sense that shed is acknowledging this and moves to better the situation. If I may be blunt, this is the entire reason why I felt it my duty as a member of shed to start this whole process and sort this mess. Yes this mess could perhaps been avoided but everything is easy to say in hindsight. For all instances everyone ought it a good idea to smoke 50 years ago.. Yet everyone now knows it's more than just bad for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    You stopped posting as Gloucester and later as Clarence in WOTR leading to the collapse of the faction's viability and therefore the game. If you knew you were going to be busy, you shouldn't have taken on such central roles to the game. I'd argue that participating in 60% of the games, as the director of the forum, is quite low. As for the quality of your participation, it usually starts off strong and then falters considerably after the first two or three weeks.

    How are we supposed to believe you'll help moderate games "you're not feeling" in a timely fashion that won't lead to delays in a game's progress? You're asking too much and delivering too little, I'm afraid.
    The allotting of characters that are of considerable importance to a game has been something Gandalfus and I have been working on for quite some time. Since the start of WotR2 actually. Some events in life are not subjected to our own influence. When WotR2 wasn't but a week or two old my brother died and I, the head of house York didn't post for quite some time. Yet I informed the community and everyone continued even though my char was among the three of most importance. Oz & Gandalfus kept the game going and Oz in particular was instrumental in reintroducing me IG which led to the continuation of the game for a longer period. The absence of one major player is not the only reason why games die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    1. You just announced a policy which makes you a moderator in every game and forbids GMs from running their games 100% the way they want. You promised you will moderate in any game to avoid self moderation, and you have implied that anyone who self moderates will be subject to discipline.
    1. I haven't said GM's are forbidden to run their games 100% as they'd like. Only if you include the self moderation part.. Which frankly I think anyone should be opposing off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    If you want my honest opinion I think the shed should just be disbanded. If someone has an idea to create a game, they can poll the community and just ask Hex to make the space. the section is already moderated by staff and the game creators/local moderators can handle the in game violations. I mean the shed is pretty unnecessary
    Motivate. Bring points to the table as why, motivate why it should be so and I promise I'll get into it as I have with everything else. Give me well thought out posts like Ponti with stuff I can actually do something with other than read that you want shed gone because it's "unnecessary" without a single notion as to why that may be the case. Same goes for you, just because you do not see things moving does not mean it does not move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    I'm also convinced an RPG Oligarchy is a bad way to run this forum. Rule by committee seems not only to be the worst way to run a game, but the worst way to run this section. We need either a single benevolent dictator or just flat out rule by consensus of a majority of players, a simple majority rule for all decisions. Personally I prefer the benevolent dictator option.
    There is no rule by committee. In the end LM has the deciding voice he actively chooses to involve the entirety of Shed to form opinions and then make a decision. In a way the community already decides if there will be a game or not because if they chose not to play it there will be no game approval.

    Ruling by dictator is out of the question from our perspective.

    As you have mentioned before this is nothing but a civil conversation. I am in no means meaning to personally attack someone for their believes. I place a high value to different opinions and am doing my best there to work towards a compromise but I do believe that we have been making those compromises from our end and it is my hope this can be the beginning of a step forward.

    General Brewster

  7. #27

    Default Re: Mending the break

    Then I'm giving the shed one shot to prove their good faith. I'll play this viking game. I do not want to be involved at all in writing rules or moderation or any OOC discussion about the game other than clarification of confusing points that might crop up. Do well and I'll retract my criticisms, if the game fails due to ooc fighting or lack of activity/moderation, then we can talk about what needs to happen in order to fix that problem, and it will involve personnel changes in leadership. Deal?

  8. #28
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Mending the break

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    Then I'm giving the shed one shot to prove their good faith. I'll play this viking game. I do not want to be involved at all in writing rules or moderation or any OOC discussion about the game other than clarification of confusing points that might crop up. Do well and I'll retract my criticisms, if the game fails due to ooc fighting or lack of activity/moderation, then we can talk about what needs to happen in order to fix that problem, and it will involve personnel changes in leadership. Deal?
    Ponti,

    I welcome you to participate in the viking RP, it's not a requirement for you to partake in the game/rule development. The offer I extended to re-invite you to the TWC discord still stands as well. Momentarily you are the only one absent from it if I am not mistaking. It's entirely your choice to participate in any of the conversations as we cant and wont force you to do so. It's great you still want to talk on it to clarify things though.

    Let me begin with saying that I appreciate it that after a civil discussion you take back your criticism, but the "deal" you are offering is not a deal. It's a one sided offer that can and will only end in the result you seemingly desire. You of all people know a lot better than most of us here that all games eventually fall due to inactivity. The only game I can remember that hasn't was the second to last wotr game where the opposing faction was destroyed and there simply was no more "War of the roses" which resulted in a natural end. As far as moderation goes it's a valid point, yet I'd ask everyone to take their responsibility in this matter. Everyone can do a birth roll for instance or RP a NPC if need be. I'd encourage everyone to just do it, the schematics for it(Birth roll) are rather clear and this helps share the load for everyone involved in moderation.

    As said before OOC fighting has been greatly reduced. I acknowledge that this is in a period without game so it might flare up a bit again but I will once more repeat that it will be met with severe actions because frankly not only the players are sick and tired of it, Shed is also. From all 4 people in Shed I think it's well known I have the smallest amount of patient in this regard and have been rather "merciless" in combating flaming. Resulting in a perma-ban recently as well. I'd ask everyone to take their own responsibility. If I'm not mistaking everyone is 18 or above and we should be able to expect people can keep to the rules we have in place and respect them as well. If not they will follow a three strikes system comprised of: 1) 12 hour ban, 2) 24 hour ban, 3) Permanent ban. Especially attacks on the individual will be dealt with accordingly.

    I believe BF already has given notice that in light of his activity he is willing to give up his seat in shed. After careful consideration Shed decided to ask Barry to replace him. Barry is a well respected member of this community and we as Shed have the utmost confidence that he will do a good job at it. We thank BF for his unrelenting commitment over all the year's he's been here and we hope to welcome him back at some point. As far as leadership goes, Gandalfus and myself are happy with how LM leads and don't wish to see that change under any other circumstance other than himself deciding to do so.

    On behalf of Shed,
    Brew

    P.S I'm terribly sorry that this reply took more than two weeks to be posted. Frankly I thought I had already posted it but I was deceived. Apologies!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Mending the break

    Inactivity is a wide umbrella that can stem from players or moderators. YATS for example never failed for lack of activity from players. You have promised it will never fail for moderator inactivity because the shed has assumed a duty to moderate. In turn this means that if moderation does not happen and the game fails then a promise to the community has been broken. That is an appropriate time for a change of personnel, so I disagree that my proposal was a unilateral agreement that can only result in me getting my way (which, perhaps unironically, is something I am quite certain will never happen in this forum again regardless of how right or how wrong my objectives may be)

    Though it is encouraging to hear that after months of me urging the shed to take specific actions they have finally been taken. Imagine how much better things might have turned out if I'd been taken seriously in December. Ultimately this is why my patience is so low and why I have no desire to waste more of my own time trying to do good by this place when it is unappreciated and outright resisted. I can't help but feel slightly vindicated that I was right all along even if the shed won't admit it. This is the last I'm going to say on the matter; I'm pretty tired of this discussion. I might play, I might not, but I'm not rejoining the discord. The amount of care I once had for the CRPGs has been greatly reduced these past few months.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; March 08, 2018 at 03:43 PM.

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