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Thread: Are you pre-ordering?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    From a consumer standpoint, Totalbiscuit is right. Pre-ordering represents nothing but a risk to the consumer, except in cases where availability might actually be a concern. That usually only comes up when talking about games that come with some kind of physical addition (i.e. collectors editions) or international console/handheld games that receive limited distribution. In those cases, pre-ordering does reserve you a copy in case supplies run out on the whole. In most modern cases though, digital distribution, Amazon, and robust supply chains for retailers pretty much prevent this from being an issue in the normal case. You're almost never in any danger of not being able to get a copy of the game if you just buy it normally, whether at launch or not.

    Additionally, the pre-order culture means that publishers have been putting more and more stock into advertisements to drive pre-orders than actual content and polish for the game. There's a psychological instinct in people to get more invested in something after they put down money on it. It's dangerous because it makes you less objective when assessing the quality of something, and can cause you to become a partisan for it before you even play the game, as you want people agree with you to validate your purchase. It perpetuates the hype cycle, where hype gets generated because people were hyped and now more people are hyped and what they were hyped about to begin with gets lost. This also means that people tend not to cancel pre-orders or get refunds even if there's a bad state at launch due to them having already bought in.

    However, there is truth to what PikeStance is saying about the industry right now. Pre-order culture is so ingrained that companies use the pre-order numbers to plan for the game's future and support before it's even released. Simply put, the market has signaled to them that this is how it going to relay it's will and it's been mostly consistent about doing that, so a game that gets lots of pre-orders is a game that's going to do well in their eyes and deserves attention. That means that games that get big pre-order numbers start getting additional resources and planning put into them right away, sometimes even adding things before launch that weren't going to be there earlier just to increase the value proposition and keep the good press going for the sake of more pre-orders. Meanwhile a game with low pre-orders may have its support/content plan stagnate or be cut short because it's assumed to underperform.

    At the end of the day, it's a bad situation. Pre-order culture has become the norm because it worked too well for too long, and now we're kinda stuck with it unless it crashes spectacularly, at which point there are going to be more than a few innocent casualties. My personal suggestion is to not take part and just let the pre-order campaigns play in the background. There are enough people out there with far less attachment to their money and a lot less consciousness of this stuff that the system will go on, but it also means there's no need to worry about the health of any given game before launch. The only real guarantor of success should be a well made game, so reward that, regardless of if it pushed pre-orders or not. Don't punish quality just because it had to dance that dance.

    Unless of course you think that the physical bonuses of the collectors edition are worth the money. At which point, hey, all power to you.
    Last edited by zoner16; December 04, 2018 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Some games, like Empire, remain broken forever and almost never are all bugs corrected. In Rome II, there are still many glitches either dating from the disastrous release of September 2013 or being later introduced in the innumerable patches the game received. Pre-ordering does not encourage bug-fixing, but actually promotes the exact opposite. When the majority of sales occur in advance, the company is less inclined to invest on a polished product, because their profits are less based on reviews and overall quality than normal. In reality, pre-ordering undermines, both directly and indirectly, the interests of the consumer, considering that it has led to a generous financing of marketing, at the expense of developing the actual game. Not only is money thrown away at advertisement and publicity stunts, but the game mechanics are also "reformed", in order to generate hype and thus increase pre-order sales.
    ETW actually has several patches correcting issues. Rome II had a major overhaul released and they are still producing content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Quite simply, there is no advantage at pre-ordering, because if someone is patient enough, he can by the "tent-pole" and the totality of its digital offshoots with only a fraction of the number required for pre-ordering. Therefore, pre-ordering and the subsequent marketing strategy heavily relies on addiction, excitement bordering fanaticism and, generally speaking, every emotional appeal on the book. It's not a coincidence that pre-ordering is a noteworthy phenomenon only in the video-game industry, where the relative immaturity of a portion of the customers has allowed the salesmen to endorse marketing policies that would seem unacceptably aggressive to an objective viewer. Micro-transactions, loot-boxes and pre-ordering are all different sides of the same coin, exploiting the weak defenses of an audience generally too young to think critically, to resist against "hype attacks", to become sensitive of the resources it wastes and to organise itself on a common body, more suitable to protect its interests than a powerless individual.
    As I already noted, if you want the discount and/or free additional content, then you can pre-order. If a player likes what he/she sees in the development diaries, then it is their choice to preorder. It not as though the developers are pulling a sheet over anyone's heads; they give early access to online gamers and many of them give critical reviews of the content. There wasn't anything stated by the early access crowd that was not echoed by regular paying players.

    I do not subscribe to the notion that anyone that pre-order a game is a naive fool. It is only foolish to preorder if you buy it and then complain about it.
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  3. #63
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Some games, like Empire, remain broken forever and almost never are all bugs corrected. In Rome II, there are still many glitches either dating from the disastrous release of September 2013 or being later introduced in the innumerable patches the game received. Pre-ordering does not encourage bug-fixing, but actually promotes the exact opposite. When the majority of sales occur in advance, the company is less inclined to invest on a polished product, because their profits are less based on reviews and overall quality than normal. In reality, pre-ordering undermines, both directly and indirectly, the interests of the consumer, considering that it has led to a generous financing of marketing, at the expense of developing the actual game.
    Empire, Rome2. Those are fairly old entries in the series right now. We are in Warhammer 1+2 and ToB and soon in 3K time period. You are right about release time of ETW/R2 but try to look at current state. Yes, Norsca ed up for Wh2.... but it was something different (working Wh1 while problem for Wh2, and only owners of Wh1 was getting ME so it was not problem for others..) at the very same time you probably cannot deny Ancestral patch for Rise of the Republic, Allegiance patch for ToB and basically any patch for Wh(s) improved the game a lot and fixed a lot. By your point of view, why would CA invest into ToB patches, especially now with all the sales numbers. And yet they are preparing new one. At the same time I would like to point out that both Warhammers did around 1M sales in the first year and then another one in the next year +/- probably due to the superb DLC AND FLC content, it looks like the best sales maybe except Rome 2 release window. And again, free updates for ToB, R2 and Warhammers are containing a lot of free content lately for everybody while DLC quality is probably the best (Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast...). We can easily point out to the Wh2 reworks of Wh1 factions/mechanics/Legendary Lords. And what long term problems were later introduced and not fixed? Sorry Abdul, but you sound like state of Rome 2 is worse than at the release while I would say quite opposite. It is not 100% fixed and perfect but game is at the best shape in the history.

    A typically catastrophic example is the addition of amphibious battles to Rome II, a controversial initiative, whose main objective was to help making pre-release videos that would excite Total War's fandom with visually impressive references to Private Ryan. As a consequence, much more crucial aspects of the game were left neglected, while amphibious battles were responsible for the proliferation of many ridiculous bugs, from over-powered transport ships that rendered military fleets redundant to entire armies aimlessly sailing through the Mediterranean, while being decimated from famine. Some of them actually persist even today, such as triremes crossing the desert and marines jumping to their deaths while disembarking. Meanwhile, in later games that were not a re-skin of Rome II, the naval aspect has been completely abandoned.
    Fair enough. But do we have such example from ToB, Wh1+2, 3K? Any mechanics which you can frame as marketing only? And majority of those bugs were fixed. Ship leaving the beach ala Attila lately, transport ramming, transport being OP, well insta transports are still the thing but that is more gameplay decision even if bad one...

    I agree that Rome 2 ampihibious combined battles are not perfect ones, but at the same time it was for the first time in TW history...And I actually like them. I remember Empire days when my single militia unit removed fleet of 20 First Rate ships from my docks. You can block my port but never capture it...The combined battles are no more rediculous than FotS Naval Bombardment and many other aspects..

    ...Not only is money thrown away at advertisement and publicity stunts, but the game mechanics are also "reformed", in order to generate hype and thus increase pre-order sales....

    Nowadays, thanks to Steam refunding and slightly friendlier consumer policies, pre-ordering is not as suicidal as it was before, but it remains a self-destructive act....

    Quite simply, there is no advantage at pre-ordering, because if someone is patient enough, he can by the "tent-pole" and the totality of its digital offshoots with only a fraction of the number required for pre-ordering. Therefore, pre-ordering and the subsequent marketing strategy heavily relies on addiction, excitement bordering fanaticism and, generally speaking, every emotional appeal on the book. It's not a coincidence that pre-ordering is a noteworthy phenomenon only in the video-game industry, where the relative immaturity of a portion of the customers has allowed the salesmen to endorse marketing policies that would seem unacceptably aggressive to an objective viewer. Micro-transactions, loot-boxes and pre-ordering are all different sides of the same coin, exploiting the weak defenses of an audience generally too young to think critically, to resist against "hype attacks", to become sensitive of the resources it wastes and to organise itself on a common body, more suitable to protect its interests than a powerless individual.
    I beg to differ. There is vast ocean of difference between EA/Activision/THQ/even Bethesda with Fallout 76 style lootboxes and micro-transactions, cosmetics.... and what is CA doing here. CA could be blamed only for two things. 1)Pre-order bonuses 2) DLCs at all. I would talk about 1) later but let me ask about 2). How would you change current DLC style? What would you add? I think current quality (again Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast) is great value for bucks and at the same time everybody is getting tons of free content. One Legendary Lord with his own mechanics, possible rework of Wh1 Lord.

    And at the same time you can always wait for steam sales or any other web shop...I have to agree with statements lower. You can pay only if you want time exclusivity and especially with 3K pre-order bonuses being applied week after actual release, with steam refunds ..what else CA can do to lower the danger for customer? And honestly CA is lately covering everything pretty well with different kind of info. If you are not ignorant, you have plenty opportunities to get look at new content. But crucial point is, are we getting enough content for our money? I think yes! It is the same like downloading films vs going into cinema. If I want to wait, i can do first option while if I want to have nice day with gf and go out, I have to pay for second option...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That patience you speak of does not represent a logical time frame. Sure, you can by the game for a fraction of the original price but when would that be? In a year?
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As I already noted, if you want the discount and/or free additional content, then you can pre-order. If a player likes what he/she sees in the development diaries, then it is their choice to preorder. It not as though the developers are pulling a sheet over anyone's heads; they give early access to online gamers and many of them give critical reviews of the content. There wasn't anything stated by the early access crowd that was not echoed by regular paying players.

    I do not subscribe to the notion that anyone that pre-order a game is a naive fool. It is only foolish to preorder if you buy it and then complain about it.
    Anyway the core of the problem is there:

    Quote Originally Posted by zoner16 View Post
    However, there is truth to what PikeStance is saying about the industry right now. Pre-order culture is so ingrained that companies use the pre-order numbers to plan for the game's future and support before it's even released. Simply put, the market has signaled to them that this is how it going to relay it's will and it's been mostly consistent about doing that, so a game that gets lots of pre-orders is a game that's going to do well in their eyes and deserves attention. That means that games that get big pre-order numbers start getting additional resources and planning put into them right away, sometimes even adding things before launch that weren't going to be there earlier just to increase the value proposition and keep the good press going for the sake of more pre-orders. Meanwhile a game with low pre-orders may have its support/content plan stagnate or be cut short because it's assumed to underperform.

    At the end of the day, it's a bad situation. Pre-order culture has become the norm because it worked too well for too long, and now we're kinda stuck with it unless it crashes spectacularly, at which point there are going to be more than a few innocent casualties. My personal suggestion is to not take part and just let the pre-order campaigns play in the background. There are enough people out there with far less attachment to their money and a lot less consciousness of this stuff that the system will go on, but it also means there's no need to worry about the health of any given game before launch. The only real guarantor of success should be a well made game, so reward that, regardless of if it pushed pre-orders or not. Don't punish quality just because it had to dance that dance.
    Back to my point 1). Pre-orders are current reality whether we like it or not. I would like to ask you what kind of pre-order you would accept. Or how would you change them.. Offer me something else for that classical 10% discount. Because I would rather pay 60 bucks to get DLC than paying 55 for that discount of 5.I´m not dumb, I´m not falling for Fallout 76 200 bucks special editions, I will not buy any EA game with microtransaction, I´m quite picky about games due to low time for general playing but you will still call me fan-boy and that i buy everything blindly. No I do not I bought even ToB with full knowing that it is lacking vs any full standalone title and that it should be more likely expansion/DLC. And I like it and don´t regret it. I regret spending money on Star Citizen and I was able to get it out after some time. That is kind of mistake I will admit because I was great fun of Christ Roberts (Wing Commander, Starlancer, Freelancer) I don´t regret pre-ordering Colelctors for Witchers/Kingdom Come Deliverence.

    Go look at battlefield 5 with multiple release dates depending upon if you bought the game with some premiere service, season pass or whatever. Like half the game is actually not there at the release (singleplayer mision, practice range, vehicle customization, look how buggy the game is and what people think about customization....katanas, asian women snipers in North Europe....Point is, CA is not perfect but current model of Chaos Warriors, Norsca or ToB/3K preorder faction is way way way cleaner and better.

    Look at Fallout 76 release right now. That is a buggy game....

    And as Pike pointed out, again, we have now so many information around release that everybody can decide quite well, we know the game and we can easily watch countless let´s play. So if you consider CA to be bad, those example above are pure evil and CA is way better...
    Last edited by Daruwind; December 05, 2018 at 03:14 AM.

  4. #64
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    One year seems reasonable to me. To be frank, I face difficulties in completing any Total War campaign in three months, so it's very easy to wait for a couple of years for an extremely low price. I am certain that I'm probably the worst and one of the most casual players, but is it really that hard to be patient for a dozen of months?
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Empire, Rome2. Those are fairly old entries in the series right now. We are in Warhammer 1+2 and ToB and soon in 3K time period. You are right about release time of ETW/R2 but try to look at current state. Yes, Norsca ed up for Wh2.... but it was something different (working Wh1 while problem for Wh2, and only owners of Wh1 was getting ME so it was not problem for others..) at the very same time you probably cannot deny Ancestral patch for Rise of the Republic, Allegiance patch for ToB and basically any patch for Wh(s) improved the game a lot and fixed a lot. By your point of view, why would CA invest into ToB patches, especially now with all the sales numbers. And yet they are preparing new one. At the same time I would like to point out that both Warhammers did around 1M sales in the first year and then another one in the next year +/- probably due to the superb DLC AND FLC content, it looks like the best sales maybe except Rome 2 release window. And again, free updates for ToB, R2 and Warhammers are containing a lot of free content lately for everybody while DLC quality is probably the best (Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast...). We can easily point out to the Wh2 reworks of Wh1 factions/mechanics/Legendary Lords. And what long term problems were later introduced and not fixed? Sorry Abdul, but you sound like state of Rome 2 is worse than at the release while I would say quite opposite. It is not 100% fixed and perfect but game is at the best shape in the history.
    Rome II and Empire being old is a logical fallacy, as long as it is not supported by any real evidence that the company's beta-testing policy has been radically reformed. Back in the hysterical summer of 2013, I remember people repeating how much time had passed since 2009 and how awesome Napoleon and Shogun were, but we spent next autumn futilely trying to understand the absurdity of having capture-the-flag scenarios in open field battles. Every DLC creates a couple of issues, the Rise of the Republic included. The most irritating ones (like the broken faction heir mechanic) were quickly fixed, but some persist, like the suicidal generals. By the way, in July 2018, Warhammer II has still not surpassed the one million fiture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Fair enough. But do we have such example from ToB, Wh1+2, 3K? Any mechanics which you can frame as marketing only? And majority of those bugs were fixed. Ship leaving the beach ala Attila lately, transport ramming, transport being OP, well insta transports are still the thing but that is more gameplay decision even if bad one...
    I agree that Rome 2 ampihibious combined battles are not perfect ones, but at the same time it was for the first time in TW history...And I actually like them. I remember Empire days when my single militia unit removed fleet of 20 First Rate ships from my docks. You can block my port but never capture it...The combined battles are no more rediculous than FotS Naval Bombardment and many other aspects..
    I beg to differ. There is vast ocean of difference between EA/Activision/THQ/even Bethesda with Fallout 76 style lootboxes and micro-transactions, cosmetics.... and what is CA doing here. CA could be blamed only for two things. 1)Pre-order bonuses 2) DLCs at all. I would talk about 1) later but let me ask about 2). How would you change current DLC style? What would you add? I think current quality (again Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast) is great value for bucks and at the same time everybody is getting tons of free content. One Legendary Lord with his own mechanics, possible rework of Wh1 Lord.
    And at the same time you can always wait for steam sales or any other web shop...I have to agree with statements lower. You can pay only if you want time exclusivity and especially with 3K pre-order bonuses being applied week after actual release, with steam refunds ..what else CA can do to lower the danger for customer? And honestly CA is lately covering everything pretty well with different kind of info. If you are not ignorant, you have plenty opportunities to get look at new content. But crucial point is, are we getting enough content for our money? I think yes! It is the same like downloading films vs going into cinema. If I want to wait, i can do first option while if I want to have nice day with gf and go out, I have to pay for second option...
    Anyway the core of the problem is there:
    Duels are the quintessence of a marketing feature. Pretty meaningless to an overall immersive feeling of dictating tactical manoeuvres, administrating an empire and orchestrating a strategically flawless offensive, but they look spectacular in the promotional videos, in a similar manner to the amphibious battles. Even the cheesy dialogues between the heroes give the necessary manga touch, in order to generate excitement. The fact that EA or Bethesda are naughtier is also irrelevant and a logical fallacy. Who cares about Fallout, the topic is Total War and the fact that there are shadier businessmen with even fewer qualms about ethics should not prevent anybody from reprimanding CA. The crux of the matter is that, in my opinion, DLCs are terribly over-priced. Each on his own, I suppose, but if we compare their cost with that of the original game, the lack of proportion becomes more than obvious. The same conclusion applied for the old-fashioned expansions, but DLCs (not to mention micro-transactions) are even more harmful to the interests of the consumer, which is explains why the video-game industry has endorsed them so passionately. It's not a coincidence that EA, a true pioneer in the domain, is actually gaining more from DLCs (whose revenue has dramatically multiplied) than the main games (whose revenue has slightly decreased). Interestingly enough, CA has already begun to prefer a vocabulary ("tent-pole") suspiciously close to EA's notorious terminology. Changes occur gradually, as the omission of naval battles has taught us, and CA has evolved a lot, in what concerns the monetary value and the amount of its DLCs, since its early, timid steps with the "Elite Units of the West/East". It's important to realize that the interests between the seller and the buyer collide, mainly because the former intends to profit the most by giving up the least, while the goal of the latter is the complete opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As I already noted, if you want the discount and/or free additional content, then you can pre-order. If a player likes what he/she sees in the development diaries, then it is their choice to preorder. It not as though the developers are pulling a sheet over anyone's heads; they give early access to online gamers and many of them give critical reviews of the content. There wasn't anything stated by the early access crowd that was not echoed by regular paying players.
    I agree that the situation has improved since Rome II (which was not accessible to anyone before the release), but it's still far from stellar. On paper, everything is fine, but, in reality, the consumer is still at disadvantage. Since the announcement of the Yellow Turbans, he's constantly bombarded with marketing hype and aggressive messages urging him to pre-order immediately. Many will hesitate to refund the already purchased game, in the hope of the problems being temporary, while YOUTUBE reviews are often compromised. It is undeniable that the relationship between a huge company like SEGA and an amateur enthusiast desperately trying to attract a couple of followers for his obscure channel is not equal. Selectively offering early access is an indirect form of bribery and even the most honest reviewer will not be very inclined to harshly criticize a game, knowing that he has benefited immensely from Creative Assembly's generosity, which has helped him to increase his popularity. After all, Total War Legend has been ditched, under a very weak pretext concerning his negativity towards the Thrones of Brittania (a title which ultimately failed commercially), while Darren, despite being a former employee and his ex-coworker's initial promise that he will be given early access, has remained black-listed.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Pre-ordering would make sense a decade ago when game released in HDs. That ment that despite any flaws a game could have it was atleast 90% ready and complete.
    Lets take a look in the last years DLCs policy. yOU PRE-ORDER -actually buy a 100% ready game- and you have in your hands a game that is less than 50% ready and complete.
    Then the company instead of fixing the game that YOU ALREAYD PAYED by pre-ordering or not, says "inorder to have a piece of the missing game pay some more" and that repeats several times.
    Lets take Rome II (without the recent update) example. You payed 50 EUROS for a complete game, that was not complete, and inorder to make it complete you payed atleast 50 more Euros.
    There for when the company announces a price of 50 EUROS for the game its actually a FRAUD because you never buy the entire game but fragments of it. So here comes the question:
    Why pre-order something that wont be complete and i will be unable to fully see its finall price when this game will be completed?
    I will wait 2-3 or more years to see all DLCs and fixes, count the total price and deside.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    By the way, in July 2018, Warhammer II has still not surpassed the one million fiture.
    It was at 955,731.

    Since Warhammer 2 was launched at the end of September 2017 and that leak happened at the beginning of this July, that was essentially still three months to go before it hit its one year anniversary. I'd say that Daruwind's statement in that case is almost certainly correct, even if we can't get the exact figure at precisely that point in time. It was definitely going to sell at least 50,000 more copies in the interim.


  7. #67
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I agree that the situation has improved since Rome II (which was not accessible to anyone before the release), but it's still far from stellar. On paper, everything is fine, but, in reality, the consumer is still at disadvantage. Since the announcement of the Yellow Turbans, he's constantly bombarded with marketing hype and aggressive messages urging him to pre-order immediately. Many will hesitate to refund the already purchased game, in the hope of the problems being temporary, while YOUTUBE reviews are often compromised. It is undeniable that the relationship between a huge company like SEGA and an amateur enthusiast desperately trying to attract a couple of followers for his obscure channel is not equal. Selectively offering early access is an indirect form of bribery and even the most honest reviewer will not be very inclined to harshly criticize a game, knowing that he has benefited immensely from Creative Assembly's generosity, which has helped him to increase his popularity. After all, Total War Legend has been ditched, under a very weak pretext concerning his negativity towards the Thrones of Brittania (a title which ultimately failed commercially), while Darren, despite being a former employee and his ex-coworker's initial promise that he will be given early access, has remained black-listed.
    I think we both know that any review for anything should be taken with a grain of salt. By the time I purchased ToB, there wasn't anything I noticed that surprise me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Pre-ordering would make sense a decade ago when game released in HDs. That ment that despite any flaws a game could have it was atleast 90% ready and complete.
    Lets take a look in the last years DLCs policy. yOU PRE-ORDER -actually buy a 100% ready game- and you have in your hands a game that is less than 50% ready and complete.
    Then the company instead of fixing the game that YOU ALREAYD PAYED by pre-ordering or not, says "inorder to have a piece of the missing game pay some more" and that repeats several times.
    Lets take Rome II (without the recent update) example. You payed 50 EUROS for a complete game, that was not complete, and inorder to make it complete you payed atleast 50 more Euros.
    There for when the company announces a price of 50 EUROS for the game its actually a FRAUD because you never buy the entire game but fragments of it. So here comes the question:
    Why pre-order something that wont be complete and i will be unable to fully see its finall price when this game will be completed?
    I will wait 2-3 or more years to see all DLCs and fixes, count the total price and deside.
    This is the sign of the times. Paradox is notorious for producing "shell games." When all said in done, the actual "base" game will be a mere 10-15% of the content. To their credit, they do provide a great deal of free content when they release updates. However, I think this is self-serving since people often skip DLCs. Another difference is that CA tends to add factions and campaigns rather than new features. This will probably change as well. Between CA and PI, CA games are more complete. That is CA rarely add features. Both have to contend with bug fixes.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Pre-ordering would make sense a decade ago when game released in HDs. That ment that despite any flaws a game could have it was atleast 90% ready and complete.
    Lets take a look in the last years DLCs policy. yOU PRE-ORDER -actually buy a 100% ready game- and you have in your hands a game that is less than 50% ready and complete.
    Then the company instead of fixing the game that YOU ALREAYD PAYED by pre-ordering or not, says "inorder to have a piece of the missing game pay some more" and that repeats several times.
    Lets take Rome II (without the recent update) example. You payed 50 EUROS for a complete game, that was not complete, and inorder to make it complete you payed atleast 50 more Euros.
    There for when the company announces a price of 50 EUROS for the game its actually a FRAUD because you never buy the entire game but fragments of it. So here comes the question:
    Why pre-order something that wont be complete and i will be unable to fully see its finall price when this game will be completed?
    I will wait 2-3 or more years to see all DLCs and fixes, count the total price and deside.
    They never made you pay for the patches or even system upgrades. You only paid for new maps, units and factions.
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  9. #69
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    This discussion lost main focus. Discussion whether DLC/pre-orders are bad or good, that´s more likely discussion about games in general. Of course if anybody has altitude that DLCs/pre-orders are bad, then CA´s practise is bad by definition.

    I tried to point out that there are companies with far less player friendly approach. CA is not perfect, but evolution of DLC, patching, pre-orders can be demonstrated using examples from Empire to Warhamer2 (3K). And definitely current DLC and especially FLC quality is way way better than looking back to Empire level of quality.

    Another point I would like to remind is, that when CA tried to fullfill wishes of History crowd by putting up ToB as standalone and not just like DLC, it was complete flop. Game is quite good but cannot compete with other Standalone major titles becase those titles are benefiting from all DLCs/FLCs/updates. It takes time and resources even to fill all generic placeholder factions around the map and while game with more DLCs on way can fix/improve/upgrade those placeholder parts later, ToB cannot. So you have to use even more of your already limited resources to flesh out the generic factions because you know you will never ever have time and resources to get back to them in future....

    But we should be discussing 3K. And so far I´m getting pretty good feeling from it. CA is returning a lot mechanics, I still miss naval combat but honestly I want deep water naval warfare...like Empire. Sohgun2/Rome2/Attila/Napoleon all those are shallow waters for me and Medditeranean is just pond for me!!. We still haven´t seen properly classic/romance mode so I don´t try to judge it now. But there is still a lot time before release to get enough info, watch enough videos. I´m still not preordering, I said I will probably +/- week before release but right now I´m 75% decide to buy it.

    EDIT:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    because really offtopic

    And yes I care what are doing other companies. I played Witcher series, first Dragon Age, Mass Effect 1-3, I have to learn about others so I can judge whether i should invest my time or not into something or if there is better alternative...Judging DLC/per-order just by own feeling is subjective, comparing with others and other games and studios we might have discussion and get some objective metric...Like it or not, games, studios are not living in some closed space. People, technology influence each other so does gaming industry. Quite nice example is Fortnite with Battle Royale mode which is now in every second FPS game..Just down are two new, todays examples or bad patching,DLCs..

    Destiny 2 new DLC for 35 bucks
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXfaanLcqfU
    I would put there video about new battlefield 5 update which is also hilarious but I have only czech one, cannot find sufficient english one.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5eWYj6yyr0
    -linear sequence, narravite is anti war and lot political comments
    -practise range is joke, cannot even try your modified vehicles
    ....

    I don´t want to see such in TWs. Think whatever you want but CA´s practise is way way better than others. I haven´t heard any single suggestion how to improve current DLC/FLC/Patching model...
    Last edited by Daruwind; December 06, 2018 at 04:10 AM.

  10. #70
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    They never made you pay for the patches or even system upgrades. You only paid for new maps, units and factions.
    New units and factions that SHOULD BE in game from the start.
    Daruwind posted some examples and he asks for sugestions. But here is about the TW games and how we see the TW games in such a prospective to deside to pre-order or not these games.
    I would not mind to pre-order any TW IF the CA/SEGA as a game provider was HONEST in the previus games it delivered.
    My sugestion as Daruwind asks for, is that CA/SEGA would say
    TheThree Kingdoms do not cost 59 EUROS but 80 EUROS with FREE of charge any future addition and fix.
    If you PRE-ORDER the game though instead of 80 Euros the game will cost you 65 EUROS with FREE of charge any future addition and fix.
    That is a price between the finall cost of the game and the cost that would exist if CA/SEGA would released it unfinished just like it did with ROME II and Atiila games.
    Another cundy to convince the possible pre-order could be a FULL SCALE modding tool set for free when those who did not took the risk could pay the FULL SCALE TOOL SET like a DLC.
    Daruwind you asked for sugestions and so here they are.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  11. #71

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    New units and factions that SHOULD BE in game from the start.
    Daruwind posted some examples and he asks for sugestions. But here is about the TW games and how we see the TW games in such a prospective to deside to pre-order or not these games.
    I would not mind to pre-order any TW IF the CA/SEGA as a game provider was HONEST in the previus games it delivered.
    My sugestion as Daruwind asks for, is that CA/SEGA would say
    That is a price between the finall cost of the game and the cost that would exist if CA/SEGA would released it unfinished just like it did with ROME II and Atiila games.
    Another cundy to convince the possible pre-order could be a FULL SCALE modding tool set for free when those who did not took the risk could pay the FULL SCALE TOOL SET like a DLC.
    Daruwind you asked for sugestions and so here they are.
    Why do all those extra units and factions should be in the game from the start?

    Your suggestion asks people to pay extra for something they're already getting for free. If by "any future addition" you mean to include campaign DLCs as well then you can forget it. That's not gonna happen.
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  12. #72
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why do all those extra units and factions should be in the game from the start?

    Your suggestion asks people to pay extra for something they're already getting for free. If by "any future addition" you mean to include campaign DLCs as well then you can forget it. That's not gonna happen.
    Did Kingdoms had something similar to Desert Units/Factions or Beasts of war ?
    The major update was the extra NEW campaigns. Yes i agree to pay for a new campaign as long as the previus ones are complete.
    Attila/RomeII : Lombrads, Desert Kindoms, Female generals, Slavic Factions , White Huns etc...all these additions were part of the SAME MAP and SAME CAMPAIGN. THEREFOR the game we payed for 60 EUROS few years ago was NOT complete!!!!
    There is a catch here though...In the latest historical titles and despite of their 10-15 patches the major issues left un fixed. So with all those DLCs we paid FOR EACH of those games 100 EUROS atleast and we have been delivered unfixed -unfinished games. Under that bad behaviur and tactic of CA/SEGA how the company will convince me and anyone else to pre-order a game that stil we know so little and may end up in worst condition than Attila or worst like Rome II?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  13. #73

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Did Kingdoms had something similar to Desert Units/Factions or Beasts of war ?
    The major update was the extra NEW campaigns. Yes i agree to pay for a new campaign as long as the previus ones are complete.
    Attila/RomeII : Lombrads, Desert Kindoms, Female generals, Slavic Factions , White Huns etc...all these additions were part of the SAME MAP and SAME CAMPAIGN. THEREFOR the game we payed for 60 EUROS few years ago was NOT complete!!!!
    There is a catch here though...In the latest historical titles and despite of their 10-15 patches the major issues left un fixed. So with all those DLCs we paid FOR EACH of those games 100 EUROS atleast and we have been delivered unfixed -unfinished games. Under that bad behaviur and tactic of CA/SEGA how the company will convince me and anyone else to pre-order a game that stil we know so little and may end up in worst condition than Attila or worst like Rome II?
    Kingdoms? You mean from Medieval II times? Back then there was no ability to send out small packages of content as easily as we can do today. So, it's pointless to compare it to the world of 2002.

    This idea that because the faction and roster additions utilized the same map and campaign the game was incomplete is not a valid idea. There is no logic to it. World doesn't work that way. They were all extras that you didn't need to buy to play the game. What you're asking here is like if you buy a car and expect any future paint job to be free.

    The reality is that you never had to pay for a patch with CA. Heck, they even gave out free updates to reintroduce some of the features desired by the players.
    The Armenian Issue
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  14. #74
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    I do not subscribe to the notion that anyone that pre-order a game is a naive fool. It is only foolish to preorder if you buy it and then complain about it.
    That last quote summarises exactly what happened in RII's release. Though RII's advertising campaign is left something to be said, I still enjoy this game with the amount of mods it has.

    I checked and it has 5000 mods. It even has mods where you can play as the Persian Empire.

    So I think it's bloody brilliant.

    The real issue isn't about pre-ordering, but about the lack of real battlemaps and the same city settlements that are over-used in RII and Attila. You only get 6-7 unique maps in those games, and the rest are copy and paste.

    The over-used maps are small and have a huge grassland with a tiny settlement in between. That needs changing to be honest.

    That should be a topic of concern. Even Shogun 2 has mods which replace the campaign map's siege settlements with custom ones.

    And the Warhammer maps with one wall to attack? I don't know what CA's definition of fun is nowadays. They keep all the good stuff outside of the battle map and you are left with some ugly field. One wall sieges? Bonkers! That's like using a screenshot for an AAR and realising that you don't get to enter the cool stuff.

    Why else do you think the modders managed to edit the campaign maps and players now download that? I want full sieges. I didn't pay for a 60 pound game to find one wall sieges. Honestly you have a small wall and a huge distance to fight? What's the fun...in that?

    Worst decision ever made. I don't want that nonsense coming into the historical total wars.

    Glad Three Kingdoms has fully functional siege maps as it was in Attila.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; December 06, 2018 at 09:09 AM.





















































  15. #75
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDionne View Post
    Because I have been waiting so many years for this title, yes I did pre-order. I never thought I would after Rome II.
    A fool and his money...
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  16. #76
    JackDionne's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    I deserve that, I am foolish at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    A fool and his money...
    Can you say Three Kingdoms? I knew you could! So looking forward to it.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    I hope I can pre-order the Collector's Edition. But, I find the web pages of the store total war can not be load completely. Is it ip-limited?

  18. #78
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Quote Originally Posted by PLA8100 View Post
    I hope I can pre-order the Collector's Edition. But, I find the web pages of the store total war can not be load completely. Is it ip-limited?
    Assuming "CN" means China, I loaded it up with my VPN and without my VPN and I got two different sites, but both containing the same exact information. It is the exact same web address.

    I am not sure why you would want the 160 USD Collector's edition.

    Yellow Turban Rebellion Warlord Pack DLC – Early Adopter Bonus (Digital Content)
    This, along with the actual game is valued at 60 USD

    The rest is 100.00 USD
    24cm Guan YU Statue (it is one color and not very vibrant. Their overhead is the mold and it uses a single color)
    Exclusive Art Book (At best, valued at 20 USD retail)
    Premium Limited-Edition Case (This the package; boxes are cheap to acquire, very little overhead).
    Double-sided poster featuring campaign map & Warlord poster (This is cheap).

    You are essentially paying more than double of the cost here. Collectors would often buy multiple copies (though hardly worth doing here, I supposed you can "donate" he redundant game copies), one to keep, one to trade and one to sell with the idea that selling it will recoverat least the cost of the purchase.
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    Hell no am I preordering. At this point in time CA has demonstrated they are a lazy and untrustable company, and I am not sure why anyone would be willing to preorder from them. I want to like this game, I loved playing the Dynasty Warriors games when I was younger and fantasized about them being more Total War like. However at this point in time I just can't trust CA delivering a working, complete game, and I am sick of the cut content day one dlc BS. Sorry, but any DLC that is ready to go on day one, is cut content and should be in the game from the start.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Are you pre-ordering?

    nope. I will not pre-order. There are only few companies (CDPR,HBS to name some) i pre-order games from, and Creative Assembly is not among them anymore..

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