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Thread: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That sounds like a reasonable solution, so long as there is another available culture slot, as you mention next.



    Even if it was just this, it would still prove that they were patrons of Greeks to produce such architecture in their own region outside of Greece. Yet tomb structures aren't the only Thracian architectural ruins that have survived, even if they are the most intact surviving structures thanks to subterranean protection of the soil over the centuries. As archaeology reveals, the Thracians didn't live in settlements resembling Celtic oppida at all. In fact, if we had to choose a settlement type for them, it should probably be Barbarian-style villages and small towns (before the oppidum model) and Greek-style cities, large cities, and huge cities. The large urban settlements that have been found in Bulgaria resemble Greek cities and masonry of Greek stone architecture more than anything else. This should come as no big surprise given the amount of Greeks living among the Thracians, as we shall see in a source quote below, to the point where many Thracians were bilingual in Thracian and Greek (with many Greeks potentially learning Thracian as well). It wasn't just the architecture that they borrowed. It was also many of the facets of Greek culture, an even stronger reason to make their settlements look Greek in the game.

    Let's consider three sites, one of which I've mentioned above. Firstly, let's examine the ruins of ancient Perperikon near modern Khadzhali, Bulgaria. This was the site where the Thracian Medokes was proclaimed king following the 424 BC death of Sitalces (although the latter was ultimately succeeded by Seuthes I). Much of the architecture dates to the Iron Age, including the round altar, and construction continued at the site into the Roman period. However, the Romans didn't swallow and annex it's client state, the Odrysian Kingdom, until the death of Thracian king Rhoemetalces III in 46 AD. Although the site contains a royal tomb, the structures shown below are part of the city and represent public architecture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perperikon (Perperikon)




    Next we come to Seuthopolis, which the Greeks considered a polis, although Strabo went as far as to say that every Thracian town ending in the suffix "bria" should be considered as a polis. To reiterate what was said above, the city was founded by the Thracian ruler Seuthes III sometime between 325 and 315 BC. It served as the administrative capital of the Odrysian Kingdom, with the royal palace of the king, and had both Greeks and Thracians living within its quarters, although most of the Thracians lived outside the walls. Unfortunately the city has become submerged in the present day by the Koprinka Reservoir. However, we have some old photographs of how the ruins looked before they were submerged, even some aerial photography!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seuthopolis (Seuthopolis)




    Finally, we come to Philippopolis, modern Plovdiv, Bulgaria, originally a Thracian town named either Poneropolis or Kendrisia. It was conquered by Philip II of Macedon in 342 BC and admittedly he transformed the site into a Greek-style polis. Yet this just reinforces the notion that Greeks in the region brought their culture and building habits with them, and to at least some extent the Thracians followed suit. The Thracians didn't abandon the site, either, since following its sacking by the roving Celts in the 270s BC, the city was taken over by the Odrysian Kingdom. It was reconquered by Philip V of Macedon in 183 BC, retaken by the Thracians, then briefly captured by Roman general Marcus Lucullus in 72 BC when he served as proconsul of Macedonia. The city was returned to the Odrysian Kingdom soon after, though, and was not in Roman hands again until 46 AD when the whole of Thrace was annexed by emperor Claudius. The city was then renamed as Trimontium.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plovdiv (Plovdiv)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Plovdiv (History of Plovdiv)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebet_Tepe (Nebet Tepe, the older core of the city with the acropolis, far predating the Roman annexation)





    Indeed, this is a great limitation. However, given the limited amount of culture slots, I'd argue it makes very little sense to force Celtic oppida style settlements onto an ancient culture that simply did not have them, when instead the Thracians' largest settlements were poleis and cities in the Greek style. It makes infinitely more sense to give them Greek settlements than ones that never existed in Thrace as far as I know.

    As for the source quote that I promised above about the level of linguistic and cultural interconnection between the Greeks and Thracians, of both Greeks living in Thrace and Thracians living in Greece (along with some neat info about Perperikon, Pistiros, and Greek religious influences):



    Sears, Matthew A. Athens, Thrace, and the Shaping of Athenian Leadership. Cambridge University Press, 2013.

    [Small note for those who don't know: "Thasians" refers to Greeks from the island of Thasos. ]

    So then, not only did the Greeks build market towns in Thrace, they also had estates there and, given the example of Alcibiades, may have even learned Thracian from their household slaves in Athens and spoke the Thracian language to Thracian troops under their command!

    For the article on Pistiros, an ancient Greek trade center in inland Thrace (near modern Vetren, Bulgaria), see the link below. The city, dominated by Greek merchants, maintained a great deal of autonomy but was clearly under the legal authority of the Thracian ruler of the Odrysian Kingdom (as proven by the royal Vetren inscription discovered in 1990).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistiros
    Photos are great, thanks for sharing!

  2. #22
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryHarris View Post
    Photos are great, thanks for sharing!
    You're very welcome, dude-bro.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    If you are a professional photographer, then you will like these ideas - http://weedit.photos/2017/how-to-take-travel-photos/

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    I'm bumping this thread, because I'm still unsatisfied that the Thracians live in Celtic oppida in our EBII mod. Surely someone can tackle this, right?

  5. #25

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I'm bumping this thread, because I'm still unsatisfied that the Thracians live in Celtic oppida in our EBII mod. Surely someone can tackle this, right?
    It makes sense though, the start of EB 2 is shortly after the massive Galatian invasion of the Balkans and Thrace was one of the most affected areas but worse is that while the Galatians were kicked out of Greece and Macedonia as an invasion force, in Thrace they settled and they even established a kingdom there.

    So that's why I think that inner thrace is Celtic in appearence rather than Hellenistic in style of architecture.

    Of course, they became Hellenized but you can't represent this Hellenization and see a more hellenistic type of architecture at the later stages of the game since there isn't a "evolution" in the game and the same goes to Galatia because at the end of the game they were pretty much hellenes in culture but they conserved their languages.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    It makes sense though, the start of EB 2 is shortly after the massive Galatian invasion of the Balkans and Thrace was one of the most affected areas but worse is that while the Galatians were kicked out of Greece and Macedonia as an invasion force, in Thrace they settled and they even established a kingdom there.

    So that's why I think that inner thrace is Celtic in appearence rather than Hellenistic in style of architecture.

    Of course, they became Hellenized but you can't represent this Hellenization and see a more hellenistic type of architecture at the later stages of the game since there isn't a "evolution" in the game and the same goes to Galatia because at the end of the game they were pretty much hellenes in culture but they conserved their languages.
    Suppose one way of doing it (theoretically) would be to enable the higher-level stuff in the Getai building tree but lock it so that it's only buildable after a Hellenisation reform. Not quite sure how it'd work but it's a thought.

  7. #27
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivir Baggins View Post
    Suppose one way of doing it (theoretically) would be to enable the higher-level stuff in the Getai building tree but lock it so that it's only buildable after a Hellenisation reform. Not quite sure how it'd work but it's a thought.
    Interesting! I could see that working.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Interesting! I could see that working.
    Especially as they can use the Hellenistic models for the buildings that haven't been coded for barbs yet (and never will). I'm just not entirely sure if it'll work, but if an Illyrian faction gets added that sort of Barb->Hellenic transition will need adding. It's a thought.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    It's a very good idea and exposition. Thanks Roma! Keep going

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    It's a very good idea and exposition. Thanks Roma! Keep going
    Thanks! It's an interesting subject to me and one I think could be reexamined for the mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Well, well, there always has to be a turd in the punch bowl, doesn't there?

    I don't really see this as contradicting anything I've put forth. If anything it just reinforces what I said before about Grecian-style market towns in Thrace. Notice also how your extract cuts off after explaining Seuthopolis, but begins to explain the "polis" of Helis in the lands of the Getae. In either case your extract also doesn't really do anything to contradict information about the other settlements I've mentioned. Care to talk about them? No? You don't want to? You don't have a rebuttal for those ones? Hmm?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Thanks! It's an interesting subject to me and one I think could be reexamined for the mod.



    Well, well, there always has to be a turd in the punch bowl, doesn't there?

    I don't really see this as contradicting anything I've put forth. If anything it just reinforces what I said before about Grecian-style market towns in Thrace. Notice also how your extract cuts off after explaining Seuthopolis, but begins to explain the "polis" of Helis in the lands of the Getae. In either case your extract also doesn't really do anything to contradict information about the other settlements I've mentioned. Care to talk about them? No? You don't want to? You don't have a rebuttal for those ones? Hmm?
    You don't know how to open a pdf file?

    Honestly I didn't have read entirely this document I made yet. It was not done for you or for the EBteam, I only see that a debate started here and I wanted to give you an academic text to the subject. The two screenshots were made a few month ago, therefore it was not against you.

    I will not made a statement without taking the time to read everything.

    Good reading.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    You don't know how to open a pdf file?

    Honestly I didn't have read entirely this document I made yet. It was not done for you or for the EBteam, I only see that a debate started here and I wanted to give you an academic text to the subject. The two screenshots were made a few month ago, therefore it was not against you.

    I will not made a statement without taking the time to read everything.

    Good reading.
    Oh. Apparently I interpreted your post incorrectly, then. From what it looked like to me, you entered the thread and posted the single page above in a sort of passive aggressive way to dismiss Seuthopolis as not being a real city, focusing only on that site while ignoring others. In either case it introduces a lively debate about the Thracian sites.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Oh. Apparently I interpreted your post incorrectly, then. From what it looked like to me, you entered the thread and posted the single page above in a sort of passive aggressive way to dismiss Seuthopolis as not being a real city, focusing only on that site while ignoring others. In either case it introduces a lively debate about the Thracian sites.
    Sorry I should have written a message more neutral. I hope the document will help you (there are bookmark in the pdf version to navigate easily).
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  15. #35
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    I am late to the party but 3ds max is completely free for students last I checked and anybody who is only using it for educational or non profit purposes.

    Link:
    https://www.autodesk.com/education/f...ftware/3ds-max
    Last edited by z3n; January 03, 2019 at 12:00 PM. Reason: link
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    I am late to the party but 3ds max is completely free for students last I checked and anybody who is only using it for educational or non profit purposes.

    Link:
    https://www.autodesk.com/education/f...ftware/3ds-max
    Doesn't the team work with 3DS Max 2010? Can we work unit models with 3DS MAX 2019? And do you know about any recent tutorial for that?

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