Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Icon5 Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Archaeologically speaking, in the 3rd century BC (when our game begins) the Thracians and Getae were building city walls, palaces and tombs in mock Hellenistic style, with some unique elements of their regional cultures thrown in. How is that incredibly different from the urban settlements built by the Carthaginians (a blend of Semitic, Greek, and even Egyptian architecture), who are portrayed as a civilized, non-barbarian faction in EBII? Or for that matter, the Romans who were so indebted to the Greeks and Etruscans? This has always bugged me. Given the evidence, the Thracian and Getae towns and cities should look more like Western Greek cities on both the campaign map and battle map.

    I know that you guys don't have all day to create new city models unique to the Getae faction alone, but given all the evidence, if you're just trying to make things easy, change their cities from barbarian ones to Western Greek ones. It makes a lot more sense given the historical record. I'm not even sure the Getae had Celtic-style oppida towns at all. The easternmost oppidum-style settlements that I've read about exist in Slovakia and Serbia, but I don't recall any of them being in Bulgaria or Romania. In fact, the Murus Dacicus style walls I will show below pretty much contradict that notion.

    For that matter, the Thracians had been influenced by the Greeks well before the Hellenistic period, as evidenced by their architecture and elaborate tomb frescoes going back to the 4th century BC, if not the fact that the Macedonians invaded Thrace under Alexander's father Philip II of Macedon. He conquered Thracian towns and reestablished them as Greek-style poleis, such as Philippopolis (modern Plovdiv, Bulgaria). Our game rightfully shows the Thracians and Getae using arms and armor influenced by their Greek neighbors, but to me this is not enough. This is what Thracian/Getae architecture and tombs look like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraci...b_of_Sveshtari (Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrusha_mound (The Ostrusha Mound)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tomb_Shushmanets (Thracian Tomb of Shushmanets)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tomb_Griffins (Thracian Tomb of the Griffins)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Kazanlak (Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tomb_Helvetia (Thracian Tomb of Helvetia)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraci...f_Aleksandrovo (Thracian Tomb of Aleksandrovo)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Seuthes_III (Tomb of Seuthes III of the Odrysian Kingdom)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seuthopolis (a city founded by Seuthes III of the Odrysian Kingdom, his bronze bust seen here, a reproduction from the one found in his tomb at Seuthopolis)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...race_and_Dacia (a pretty exhaustive list of ancient cities in both Thrace and Dacia)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murus_Dacicus (Murus Dacicus is a style of urban fortification unique to the region of Dacia and existed well before the Roman conquest by Trajan, with some masonry elements borrowed from both the Greeks and Romans but also included gravel, clay and rammed earth to fill gaps between the stones)

  2. #2
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Perhaps more sensible option would be to make their settlements like eastern greek settlements are made, but instead of mixing eastern style with greek style buildings, mix barbarian style with greek style buildings. The main issue is that those greek style tombs and artwork were often made by imported greek craftsmen and artists and only a tiny minority of people could afford them, hence the most of buildings you've given as an example aren't useful public buildings but tombs of very important individuals. Another issue is that mixing barbarian with greek styles would probably a new culture, and I don't think there are more culture slots available.

    Would be great if we could eventually switch faction settlement styles based on developement, ie. conquer Italy as Sweboz, adopt roman style buildings eventually, but, unfortunately this isn't something M2TW engine allows.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  3. #3
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,626

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Admittedly, I haven't played as the Getae a whole lot yet. But by looking at the faction, it looks like some places were more Greek influenced than others (the Dacian phalanx units mention this). In fact, the Getae, Thracians, Illyrians, and others in that area are right in between the Hellenic world, the Celtic world, the Germanic/Baltic world, and the nomadic steppes. What if you had the option to have different cities be influenced by a different outside culture? Like something like giving one settlement a Hellenic influence and then slowly getting more Getae phalanx units and maybe unlock some Hellenic-type buildings? Same with the Celts, gave a Getae, Thracian, or Illyrian city a Celtic influence and then gain some Celtic-style advantages.

    The Getae are an 'Urbanized Tribal state', all the neighbor factions IIRC are something different. I seem to recall the Scordisci tribe had a lot of Celtic influences.
    Last edited by James the Red; February 10, 2018 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by James the Red View Post
    I seem to recall the Scordisci tribe had a lot of Celtic influences.
    They were actual Celts, not just influenced by them.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  5. #5
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    Perhaps more sensible option would be to make their settlements like eastern greek settlements are made, but instead of mixing eastern style with greek style buildings, mix barbarian style with greek style buildings.
    That sounds like a reasonable solution, so long as there is another available culture slot, as you mention next.

    The main issue is that those greek style tombs and artwork were often made by imported greek craftsmen and artists and only a tiny minority of people could afford them, hence the most of buildings you've given as an example aren't useful public buildings but tombs of very important individuals.
    Even if it was just this, it would still prove that they were patrons of Greeks to produce such architecture in their own region outside of Greece. Yet tomb structures aren't the only Thracian architectural ruins that have survived, even if they are the most intact surviving structures thanks to subterranean protection of the soil over the centuries. As archaeology reveals, the Thracians didn't live in settlements resembling Celtic oppida at all. In fact, if we had to choose a settlement type for them, it should probably be Barbarian-style villages and small towns (before the oppidum model) and Greek-style cities, large cities, and huge cities. The large urban settlements that have been found in Bulgaria resemble Greek cities and masonry of Greek stone architecture more than anything else. This should come as no big surprise given the amount of Greeks living among the Thracians, as we shall see in a source quote below, to the point where many Thracians were bilingual in Thracian and Greek (with many Greeks potentially learning Thracian as well). It wasn't just the architecture that they borrowed. It was also many of the facets of Greek culture, an even stronger reason to make their settlements look Greek in the game.

    Let's consider three sites, one of which I've mentioned above. Firstly, let's examine the ruins of ancient Perperikon near modern Khadzhali, Bulgaria. This was the site where the Thracian Medokes was proclaimed king following the 424 BC death of Sitalces (although the latter was ultimately succeeded by Seuthes I). Much of the architecture dates to the Iron Age, including the round altar, and construction continued at the site into the Roman period. However, the Romans didn't swallow and annex it's client state, the Odrysian Kingdom, until the death of Thracian king Rhoemetalces III in 46 AD. Although the site contains a royal tomb, the structures shown below are part of the city and represent public architecture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perperikon (Perperikon)




    Next we come to Seuthopolis, which the Greeks considered a polis, although Strabo went as far as to say that every Thracian town ending in the suffix "bria" should be considered as a polis. To reiterate what was said above, the city was founded by the Thracian ruler Seuthes III sometime between 325 and 315 BC. It served as the administrative capital of the Odrysian Kingdom, with the royal palace of the king, and had both Greeks and Thracians living within its quarters, although most of the Thracians lived outside the walls. Unfortunately the city has become submerged in the present day by the Koprinka Reservoir. However, we have some old photographs of how the ruins looked before they were submerged, even some aerial photography!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seuthopolis (Seuthopolis)




    Finally, we come to Philippopolis, modern Plovdiv, Bulgaria, originally a Thracian town named either Poneropolis or Kendrisia. It was conquered by Philip II of Macedon in 342 BC and admittedly he transformed the site into a Greek-style polis. Yet this just reinforces the notion that Greeks in the region brought their culture and building habits with them, and to at least some extent the Thracians followed suit. The Thracians didn't abandon the site, either, since following its sacking by the roving Celts in the 270s BC, the city was taken over by the Odrysian Kingdom. It was reconquered by Philip V of Macedon in 183 BC, retaken by the Thracians, then briefly captured by Roman general Marcus Lucullus in 72 BC when he served as proconsul of Macedonia. The city was returned to the Odrysian Kingdom soon after, though, and was not in Roman hands again until 46 AD when the whole of Thrace was annexed by emperor Claudius. The city was then renamed as Trimontium.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plovdiv (Plovdiv)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Plovdiv (History of Plovdiv)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebet_Tepe (Nebet Tepe, the older core of the city with the acropolis, far predating the Roman annexation)



    Another issue is that mixing barbarian with greek styles would probably a new culture, and I don't think there are more culture slots available.

    Would be great if we could eventually switch faction settlement styles based on developement, ie. conquer Italy as Sweboz, adopt roman style buildings eventually, but, unfortunately this isn't something M2TW engine allows.
    Indeed, this is a great limitation. However, given the limited amount of culture slots, I'd argue it makes very little sense to force Celtic oppida style settlements onto an ancient culture that simply did not have them, when instead the Thracians' largest settlements were poleis and cities in the Greek style. It makes infinitely more sense to give them Greek settlements than ones that never existed in Thrace as far as I know.

    As for the source quote that I promised above about the level of linguistic and cultural interconnection between the Greeks and Thracians, of both Greeks living in Thrace and Thracians living in Greece (along with some neat info about Perperikon, Pistiros, and Greek religious influences):

    Quote Originally Posted by Sears (2013), pp 28-31
    Recent excavations undertaken by a Bulgarian team at a site in the eastern Rhodopes called Perperikon suggest that the place of the oracle may have been found. According to archaeologists, the site was used for cult practices as far back as the Neolithic period, and finds from the late Bronze Age and Iron Age are abundant. Most interesting are a series of small clay altars and a large open hall with a round altar in its center. The area around Perperikon is littered with troughs and basins, which some archaeologists have equated with wine-making facilities for ritual purposes. According to the excavators, there is also evidence for the practice of Orphic ritual, traditionally connected to Dionysiac worship...

    There is some indication of a military relationship at Pistiros, both symbiotic and adversarial. The Greeks would have had some sort of armed protection for an economic center in the heart of foreign territory. The site was fortified in the third quarter of the fifth century with a curtain wall and tower that may have reached over 6 meters high. The fortifications resemble those of Thrasos much more than Thracian examples, perhaps reflecting the number of Thrasians involved with the emporion. These defenses were strengthened in the fourth century. Although profitable contact was made with many of the Thracians in the area, there was still some danger of attack. The Vetren inscription demonstrates that the Odrysian rulers protected the Greek merchants at Pistiros, but official protection would have been no guarantee against attack from the independent tribes dwelling in the nearby mountains. In the town itself, some Thracian weapons, including the head from a spear and several arrowheads, have been found on the main road. Chariots, either as transports or weapons of war or both, were present as indicated by their mention in the Vetren inscription and by the presence of distinctive wheel-ruts on the main road and gate. Chariots would have added a distinctively exotic and perhaps even heroic flavor to Pistiros.

    Alexander himself found out how much Thracians and Greeks living together in places such as Pistiros could come together militarily. In describing Alexander's campaigns in Thrace, Arrian says that the autonomous Thracians of Mount Haemus - to the north and east of Pistiros - banded together with many armed merchants to oppose Alexander from the heights. These merchants, or emporoi, mentioned by Arrian were most likely Greek inhabitants or emporia, mentioned by Arrian were most likely Greek inhabitants of emporia, such as Pistiros. That the Greeks opted to fight along with the Thracians, and indeed to exploit the mountainous terrain to their advantage in a typically Thracian fashion, demonstrates that Greeks and Thracians dwelling in the heart of the Balkans worked together militarily and learned from one another. It also indicates that many Greeks living in the region were more ready to join forces with Thracians rather than to capitulate to Alexander.

    As a final consideration, Greeks and Thracians had to find some way to communicate with one another in emporia such as Pistiros, because they would have had to communicate at the courts of Thracian rulers, on embassies, and as allies on military expeditions. Miller addresses the question of how Greeks and Persians could have communicated and concludes that for the most part interpreters were needed. The same is probably true of Greeks and Thracians, though some Greeks living for extended periods of time in Thrace probably did learn to speak some of the local language. Thracians too, living in and around various northern Aegean Greek settlements, could have learned Greek. There are a few interpreters mentioned in the literary sources, such as the bilingual Carian used by the Persian satrap Tissaphernes in his dealings with the Greeks. Bilingual Thracians would have been immensely valuable in Pistiros and countless other contexts. Many Thracians lived at Athens in the Classical period, perhaps a majority of whom were household slaves who not only would have learned Greek themselves but could have taught their native tongue to members of the household. We are told by Plutarch that Alcibiades was given a Thracian tutor named Zopyrus by his guardian Pericles (Alc. 1.22). This relationship probably paid dividends later in Alcibiades' career when he took refuge on his personal estates in Thrace and had under his command Thracian soldiers.
    Sears, Matthew A. Athens, Thrace, and the Shaping of Athenian Leadership. Cambridge University Press, 2013.

    [Small note for those who don't know: "Thasians" refers to Greeks from the island of Thasos. ]

    So then, not only did the Greeks build market towns in Thrace, they also had estates there and, given the example of Alcibiades, may have even learned Thracian from their household slaves in Athens and spoke the Thracian language to Thracian troops under their command!

    For the article on Pistiros, an ancient Greek trade center in inland Thrace (near modern Vetren, Bulgaria), see the link below. The city, dominated by Greek merchants, maintained a great deal of autonomy but was clearly under the legal authority of the Thracian ruler of the Odrysian Kingdom (as proven by the royal Vetren inscription discovered in 1990).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistiros

  6. #6
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    To which settlements you think western greek settlement modes should be given? All Thracian ones, how about Getic ones? I see that they're capable of making true cities, however they're also too distinct to use western greek models, and I think EB has run out of settlement models to make, however I'm wondering if M2TW castle vs city mechanics could be used to create a western greek castle settlement (in EB2 this is used for nomadic camps) models that would include barbarian style houses and some basic buildings, while making major public ones look like impressive greek styled stone buildings, which should, in my opinion, have a bit different look than regular western greek buildings.

    This raises the question of could we make western greek castle models and give them to the Tharacians and the Getai faction, I don't think western greek uses castles, perhaps Bosporans do, I'm pretty sure Roman culture doesn't use castles, or am I wrong...
    Last edited by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σω February 11, 2018 at 12:58 PM.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  7. #7
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    To which settlements you think western greek settlement modes should be given? All Thracian ones, how about Getic ones? I see that they're capable of making true cities, however they're also too distinct to use western greek models, and I think EB has run out of settlement models to make, however I'm wondering if M2TW castle vs city mechanics could be used to create a western greek castle settlement (in EB2 this is used for nomadic camps) models that would include barbarian style houses and some basic buildings, while making major public ones look like impressive greek styled stone buildings, which should, in my opinion, have a bit different look than regular western greek buildings.

    This raises the question of could we make western greek castle models and give them to the Tharacians and the Getai faction, I don't think western greek uses castles, perhaps Bosporans do, I'm pretty sure Roman culture doesn't use castles, or am I wrong...
    That's actually a fantastic suggestion! As far as I know the castle option for the Western Greek culture is entirely ignored and they only have city models tied to that culture. It would also make a bit more sense for the Thracians to have these instead, since they mostly built villages and towns with only a handful of real cities. It would also better resemble the Greek-style fortified emporion, a type of colony and fortified market town that was common in Thrace. As demonstrated above, Pistiros is an excellent example, having curtain walls and towers.

    As for the Dacians/Getae, this could also extend to them, since not only Hellenistic architecture but also unique Dacian fortifications existed there as explained above in the first post. So yes, I think it should include both rebel Thracian settlements and factional Dacian ones. Again, someone please correct me, but I do not believe the Getae ever built a truly Celtic-style oppidum town or fort, which is the settlement type they have now.

  8. #8
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's actually a fantastic suggestion! As far as I know the castle option for the Western Greek culture is entirely ignored and they only have city models tied to that culture.


    You make them, I'll play them!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I think it should include both rebel Thracian settlements and factional Dacian ones
    Sounds good to me!
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  9. #9
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,626

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    That is a good idea!

  10. #10
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    On the crossroads
    Posts
    750

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Here comes the cold water...

    Castles, even those currently not used for various units would be referred to as nomadic camps on the campaign map. Furthermore, they would unlock nomadic/camp buildings if a faction which makes use of them takes it. That would be rather jarring.

    There are some ideas floating around internally in differentiating between the various settlements of the barbarian factions (Gallic oppida are equally inaccurate for the Iberians for example), but it will take a lot of work and time, if it will ever be implemented at all.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  11. #11
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Well, that's unfortunate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post

    There are some ideas floating around internally in differentiating between the various settlements of the barbarian factions (Gallic oppida are equally inaccurate for the Iberians for example), but it will take a lot of work and time, if it will ever be implemented at all.
    Perhaps someone can make a sub-mod, if one has the right idea how to do it.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  12. #12
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Here comes the cold water...

    Castles, even those currently not used for various units would be referred to as nomadic camps on the campaign map. Furthermore, they would unlock nomadic/camp buildings if a faction which makes use of them takes it. That would be rather jarring.

    There are some ideas floating around internally in differentiating between the various settlements of the barbarian factions (Gallic oppida are equally inaccurate for the Iberians for example), but it will take a lot of work and time, if it will ever be implemented at all.
    Such a shame! Thanks for letting us know, though. If anyone were to tackle this in the future they would be a saint in my opinion.

  13. #13
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,626

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Would the jarring effect of nomads being able to use captured camps be limited if there was only one level of camps that can get upgraded into cities the same way that castles can be turned into cities in vanilla medieval 2?

    How about this proposal, the model for the largest barbarian city type is changed to a new model with walls that reflects Hellenic influences, and the Gallic Oppida then becomes the model for the 2nd largest barbarian settlement instead. And the other settlements are bumped down a 'settlement complexity level' as well, with a camp now instead of a 'city level 1' being the smallest settlement complexity type for barbarian factions. Basically making a new settlement level below the normal level 1 that has the old level 1 city buildings and walls, so that the highest settlement level can have an all new model.


    The Germans and Baltics use only two levels of camp, correct? Maybe a 'barbarian camp level 3' (unavailable to Germans and Balts) can be made for that purpose for the first level of Barbarian cities. Plus, a 'Greek camp' could be used for those Thracian walled emporiums Roma Victrix mentioned. If nomads could use a level 3 camp like normal it wouldn't be optimal, but once you upgrade the camp into a city then it would no longer be a concern for that particular settlement for the remainder of that game. Also, it would mean that non-getae barbarians would have either have access to the same level walls the Getae do, or are restricted from doing so and thus the Getae would be able to have larger cities than the celts. Not sure how good or bad that would be. Another concern with that would be the Getae would still have to build Oppida walls on the way towards building the new walls.

    So something along the lines of...

    Getae: Barbarian camp 3 = palisade walls, City level 1 = wooden wall, City level 2 = Oppida walls, City level 3 = Getae walls.

    Hellenic camp 3 = walled emporium (then upgrades to cities).

    Germans and Balts: Barbarian camp 1 and 2 (as normal).

    Celts: Barbarian camp 3 = palisade walls, City level 1 = wooden wall, City level 2 = Oppida walls.
    Last edited by James the Red; February 12, 2018 at 04:24 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    That sort of complexity is not required. The game code allows us to have faction-specific settlement models, so theoretically the Getai, Iberians, Kelts, and Germanics could all have completely different models, even though all share the same culture. Even the Pritanoi could have their round houses vs. the square ones on the continent.

    The issue is and remains, availability of people who can actually create these models. It is very time consuming, to put it mildly. Probably THE most labor intensive activity in the entire mod.
    EBII Council

  15. #15
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    That sort of complexity is not required. The game code allows us to have faction-specific settlement models, so theoretically the Getai, Iberians, Kelts, and Germanics could all have completely different models, even though all share the same culture. Even the Pritanoi could have their round houses vs. the square ones on the continent.

    The issue is and remains, availability of people who can actually create these models. It is very time consuming, to put it mildly. Probably THE most labor intensive activity in the entire mod.
    I would try to draft someone for that purpose if I even knew where to begin looking for such talent on the web, someone who wouldn't mind doing it for free instead of being paid and hired help (since that's a no-no for CA mods). Outside of TWC, I don't know of any gaming forums where I could even find someone with that kind of knowledge or access to milkshape and other tools necessary to edit settlement files. If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd happily go and ask people on other forums to join the EBII team for that purpose.

  16. #16
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    That sort of complexity is not required. The game code allows us to have faction-specific settlement models, so theoretically the Getai, Iberians, Kelts, and Germanics could all have completely different models, even though all share the same culture. Even the Pritanoi could have their round houses vs. the square ones on the continent.

    The issue is and remains, availability of people who can actually create these models. It is very time consuming, to put it mildly. Probably THE most labor intensive activity in the entire mod.
    If that's the case, how difficult would it be to replace some of the high tier "barbarian" buildings with western greek ones for the Getai? After all, these are finished models...
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  17. #17
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    If that's the case, how difficult would it be to replace some of the high tier "barbarian" buildings with western greek ones for the Getai? After all, these are finished models...
    It takes a while, apparently, but the biggest stumbling block for me is that you have to purchase software like Milkshape, and I'm not interested in anything I can't just download and do for free. For anyone who's interested (and competent in this stuff), here's how you use IWTE and Milkshape to position a cluster of buildings and edit the terrain around them (courtesy xHolyCrusader):


  18. #18
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    It takes a while, apparently, but the biggest stumbling block for me is that you have to purchase software like Milkshape,
    Aren't there some free alternatives to Milkshape? I've heard of quite a few 3D modeling software such as Blender and Gmax, I think those are free, nevertheless, I know next to nothing about 3D modeling...
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  19. #19
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,737

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    Aren't there some free alternatives to Milkshape? I've heard of quite a few 3D modeling software such as Blender and Gmax, I think those are free, nevertheless, I know next to nothing about 3D modeling...
    I've never heard of these programs before, but unless they have a lot of detailed instructions and videos like Milkshape does, then I'd be a babe lost in the woods as to how to use them. I also don't have the time or patience to start becoming a 3D modeler. Maybe if I was some 15-year-old kid again with a bunch of spare time on my hands, but these days I barely have enough time to simply sit down and enjoy playing these games, let alone modding them. That's why I would love to draft someone to do this stuff (without paying them, of course, lol).

  20. #20
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Shouldn't the Thracians and Getae have Hellenistic-style cities? Not barbarian ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I've never heard of these programs before, but unless they have a lot of detailed instructions and videos like Milkshape does, then I'd be a babe lost in the woods as to how to use them. I also don't have the time or patience to start becoming a 3D modeler.
    I've seen youtube tutorials for blender, nonetheless I know what you mean, it's time consuming to learn a new skill one is likely to use only once...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's why I would love to draft someone to do this stuff (without paying them, of course, lol).
    Well, that's how the armies used to do it...
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •