Battles

[Rabenrecht]

From what I understand of TW engine 3, combat is not actually 1v1. Just the animations only support 1v1, so that's what things look like. It's a problem, but less of one.

Medieval II's engine was very nicely configurable, but calling it "sophisticated and deep" is stretching it. A lot of it is really hacked together and several systems seem to work only by the capricious hand of fate. Making that thing properly multi-core would require burning it down and rebuilding it. Medieval II is a great game because the designers were able to stretch it to its absolute limit and keep focus on the things that the system did well while covering up its weak points.

I have not played any TW title after Medieval 2, and from this perspective your statement "combat is not actually 1v1. Just the animations only support 1v1, so that's what things look like" does not make any sense.
Or rather it does makes sense but the implications are dire.

To elaborate: your Statement implies a disconnect between the battle calculations and what is actually seen on the battlefield. That the combat is not actually based on the individual soldier but instead determined on an Abstract unit Level.
Having not played any Warscape TW title I cant judge if this is true or not. But for a Total War game it seem like a very stupid idea: in Total War games there is no neat 1 unit on 1 unit combat. A battle model based on the individual soldier is the way to go for a Total War game.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, we know some things are calculated on a soldier level, rather than at unit level. Artillery fire, for example, effects the area it hits. We see the soldiers dying where artillery hits, instead of soldiers of that particular unit dying in random parts the unit occupies. However, does specific combat moves trigger death in the affected soldier, or does calculations between two units trigger kill animations, that I'm not sure about.

[AnthoniusII]

No one bothered to answer my simple question. In the case of "walled" settlements" unde siege, do we have the Attila feature that part of walls destroyed durring siege period?
Aka melt by rain or blown up by the wind?
Question 2:

Well, we know some things are calculated on a soldier level, rather than at unit level. Artillery fire, for example, effects the area it hits. We see the soldiers dying where artillery hits, instead of soldiers of that particular unit dying in random parts the unit occupies. However, does specific combat moves trigger death in the affected soldier, or does calculations between two units trigger kill animations, that I'm not sure about.

Do the faction rosters include onagers , catapults etc?
IF yes the 3rd question that emerges:
WHAT KIND OF TWISTED HISTORY this game use for its base?
The 1st Crusaders were ammased by the "machines" Emperor Komnenos gave them to use them to siege the Arabic huge cities.
Because their wooden palisades in their homelands did not require such machines that the art of created them lost after the fall of Rome in the west!

[PointOfViewGun]

No one bothered to answer my simple question. In the case of "walled" settlements" unde siege, do we have the Attila feature that part of walls destroyed durring siege period?
Aka melt by rain or blown up by the wind?

I didn't notice when I assaulted the walls after a turn or two, but I'm not sure.

Question 2:
Do the faction rosters include onagers , catapults etc?
IF yes the 3rd question that emerges:
WHAT KIND OF TWISTED HISTORY this game use for its base?
The 1st Crusaders were ammased by the "machines" Emperor Komnenos gave them to use them to siege the Arabic huge cities.
Because their wooden palisades in their homelands did not require such machines that the art of created them lost after the fall of Rome in the west!

The roster reveals indicate that catapults are in the game. Apparently just small ones though.

[zoner16]

No one bothered to answer my simple question. In the case of "walled" settlements" unde siege, do we have the Attila feature that part of walls destroyed durring siege period?
Aka melt by rain or blown up by the wind?

IF yes the 3rd question that emerges:
WHAT KIND OF TWISTED HISTORY this game use for its base?
The 1st Crusaders were ammased by the "machines" Emperor Komnenos gave them to use them to siege the Arabic huge cities.
Because their wooden palisades in their homelands did not require such machines that the art of created them lost after the fall of Rome in the west!

Official answer to both questions from Jack:

Siege escalation in Attila represented the slow wearing down of walls by prolonged periods of artillery fire over months, and through other siege techniques. It fitted the time period well.

Siege warfare in the time period of Thrones isn’t sophisticated in any way, shape or form. I mean the Vikings tended to be stopped by any settlement with walls they encountered. There’s no record of artillery at all in this era. We have records of artillery from mainland Europe, but the use of them just isn’t known from Britain and Ireland in this era. We do allow the player access to artillery in the game, for a little element of going further than the history of the time, but you’ve got to unlock the siege techs by fighting siege battles and then get to the end of the siege tech line to get access to them, which is a decent amount of turns, and even then access is limited. In the unit pool catapults have quite a low replenishment rate and a low default cap for their availability.

So, having siege escalation wouldn’t make sense. There’s nothing in 90% of armies that would be wearing down the walls over a long period of time. That means we don’t have siege escalation in Thrones, as it doesn’t fit the history of the era, or the gameplay we’re deriving from that.

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...on-still-there

[AnthoniusII]

That are lies....

Siege escalation in Attila represented the slow wearing down of walls by prolonged periods of artillery fire over months, and through other siege techniques. It fitted the time period well.

Siege warfare in the time period of Thrones isn’t sophisticated in any way, shape or form. I mean the Vikings tended to be stopped by any settlement with walls they encountered. There’s no record of artillery at all in this era. We have records of artillery from mainland Europe, but the use of them just isn’t known from Britain and Ireland in this era. We do allow the player access to artillery in the game, for a little element of going further than the history of the time, but you’ve got to unlock the siege techs by fighting siege battles and then get to the end of the siege tech line to get access to them, which is a decent amount of turns, and even then access is limited. In the unit pool catapults have quite a low replenishment rate and a low default cap for their availability.

So, having siege escalation wouldn’t make sense. There’s nothing in 90% of armies that would be wearing down the walls over a long period of time. That means we don’t have siege escalation in Thrones, as it doesn’t fit the history of the era, or the gameplay we’re deriving from that.

I can prove it.
An army WITHOUT ANY ARTILERY piece in Attila still had those walls down!
By then..Attila era release NOT such excuse was posted... I personaly asked Jack to justify that and ignored me. The truth is that they need artilery because their AI sucks. They have no other way to assault a city with AI than pre-damaged walls or artilery.
No ladders, no tunnels etc...In fact the dirt/wooden walls in Thrones era could have a army assault similar to Shogun II one that soldiers climbing the walls.
Please don't tell me that the game has stone walls too or towers similar to Age of Empires II style!!PLEASE!!!!
And CA/SEGA stuff please stop lying!

[PointOfViewGun]

That are lies....
I can prove it.
An army WITHOUT ANY ARTILERY piece in Attila still had those walls down!
By then..Attila era release NOT such excuse was posted... I personaly asked Jack to justify that and ignored me. The truth is that they need artilery because their AI sucks. They have no other way to assault a city with AI than pre-damaged walls or artilery.
No ladders, no tunnels etc...In fact the dirt/wooden walls in Thrones era could have a army assault similar to Shogun II one that soldiers climbing the walls.
Please don't tell me that the game has stone walls too or towers similar to Age of Empires II style!!PLEASE!!!!
And CA/SEGA stuff please stop lying!

Could it be because no one said that siege escalation was purely dependent on whether an attacking army had siege equipment or not? I love how you say "I can prove it" and then only present your claims.

[AnthoniusII]

Could it be because no one said that siege escalation was purely dependent on whether an attacking army had siege equipment or not? I love how you say "I can prove it" and then only present your claims.

Proving in Attila is easy ...Take an Army with NO siege equipment at all...Besiege a city for 6-8 turns.
Attack the city and see the walls have huge wholes on them.
What made those wholes, your ladders or your siege towers?
Make a reverse expariment...Allow an AI controled army WITH NO ARTILERY units in it to besiege your city for 3-4 turns. Allow them assault your city.
You will find huge wholes in your walls. Unless the AI general in not Jesus of Navi that destroyed city walls with trumpets then the walls melt by the rain or by magic!
Finall test. Take a minor settelent of a province of yours and upgrade it to level 4 that has walls. Observe your city durring an attack.
You will see (IF YOU CAN SEE) that the settlement is NOT protected by walls for all sides!
Its nothing complicated even for you Setekh...Just make these tests.
Strange: It took several years for Jack to come up with even this excuse!!! YEARS

[PointOfViewGun]

Proving in Attila is easy ...Take an Army with NO siege equipment at all...Besiege a city for 6-8 turns.
Attack the city and see the walls have huge wholes on them.
What made those wholes, your ladders or your siege towers?
Make a reverse expariment...Allow an AI controled army WITH NO ARTILERY units in it to besiege your city for 3-4 turns. Allow them assault your city.
You will find huge wholes in your walls. Unless the AI general in not Jesus of Navi that destroyed city walls with trumpets then the walls melt by the rain or by magic!
Finall test. Take a minor settelent of a province of yours and upgrade it to level 4 that has walls. Observe your city durring an attack.
You will see (IF YOU CAN SEE) that the settlement is NOT protected by walls for all sides!
Its nothing complicated even for you Setekh...Just make these tests.
Strange: It took several years for Jack to come up with even this excuse!!! YEARS

Why don't you run that test yourself and show us the results?

[AnthoniusII]

Why don't you run that test yourself and show us the results?

I did...more than 500 hours of battles in Rome II and Attila.
Have you? If you have not then please do not post only for the sake of posting!
In fact that case was my 1st critisism in both Rome II (Siege AI) and Attila. After all these years Just lusted thought an excuse and post it but back then no CA/SEGA member ever responded!

[zoner16]

Proving in Attila is easy ...Take an Army with NO siege equipment at all...Besiege a city for 6-8 turns.
Attack the city and see the walls have huge wholes on them.
What made those wholes, your ladders or your siege towers?
Make a reverse expariment...Allow an AI controled army WITH NO ARTILERY units in it to besiege your city for 3-4 turns. Allow them assault your city.
You will find huge wholes in your walls. Unless the AI general in not Jesus of Navi that destroyed city walls with trumpets then the walls melt by the rain or by magic!
Finall test. Take a minor settelent of a province of yours and upgrade it to level 4 that has walls. Observe your city durring an attack.
You will see (IF YOU CAN SEE) that the settlement is NOT protected by walls for all sides!
Its nothing complicated even for you Setekh...Just make these tests.
Strange: It took several years for Jack to come up with even this excuse!!! YEARS

I think this is more of a case of siege escalation in Attila needing more nuance (i.e. only add siege escalation if artillery is present) than it being needed at all in Thrones of Britannia.

[AnthoniusII]

I think this is more of a case of siege escalation in Attila needing more nuance (i.e. only add siege escalation if artillery is present) than it being needed at all in Thrones of Britannia.

Pricesly...Back then in the early days of Attila release I made a similar sugestion.That would force players under siege to an exodus to brake that siege.
Also i sugested an AI improvement in the RTW-1 standards but I was ignored.
In Rome II rebel armies use only one ladder, and in Attila there are no walls or when they are they are not fully developed.
The strangest thing of all was that after Rome II , the Attila devs did not use Roman walls for roman cities!!!!!!!! Maybe for the devs the Romans were as barbarians as the barbarians themselvs. Adding artilery in barbarian tribes was a measure to overcome the "idiot" siege AI of the games. I haven't play Thrones but having artilery in people that saw artilery machines for 1st time in 1096 AD when the Roman Emperor gave them such machines because Arabic cities were NOT the villages with wooden palisades they came from but huge urban centers with enourmous stone walls!, make me believe -i wish i am wrong- that TW AI issues still exist. If i am wrong and 2 or more AI controled armies storm in to your city ussing their own ladders please provide feedback!

[zoner16]

Pricesly...Back then in the early days of Attila release I made a similar sugestion.That would force players under siege to an exodus to brake that siege.
Also i sugested an AI improvement in the RTW-1 standards but I was ignored.
In Rome II rebel armies use only one ladder, and in Attila there are no walls or when they are they are not fully developed.
The strangest thing of all was that after Rome II , the Attila devs did not use Roman walls for roman cities!!!!!!!! Maybe for the devs the Romans were as barbarians as the barbarians themselvs. Adding artilery in barbarian tribes was a measure to overcome the "idiot" siege AI of the games. I haven't play Thrones but having artilery in people that saw artilery machines for 1st time in 1096 AD when the Roman Emperor gave them such machines because Arabic cities were NOT the villages with wooden palisades they came from but huge urban centers with enourmous stone walls!, make me believe -i wish i am wrong- that TW AI issues still exist. If i am wrong and 2 or more AI controled armies storm in to your city ussing their own ladders please provide feedback!

Most AI siege battles I've had have the AI use all of the siege equipment that it builds unless something strange happens like off map reinforcements arriving. It's still not good at it, but it's not noticeably worse than previous titles. I've only had challenging sieges with a fully walled settlement in Shogun 2 since units can climb the walls.

The AI is always going to be a tripping point in these games. The siege AI especially. The state space for a game like this is just too big, and without a serious redesign specifically to accommodate the AI (which would go over poorly with players), we're only going to see very incremental AI improvements.

[PointOfViewGun]

I did...more than 500 hours of battles in Rome II and Attila.
Have you? If you have not then please do not post only for the sake of posting!
In fact that case was my 1st critisism in both Rome II (Siege AI) and Attila. After all these years Just lusted thought an excuse and post it but back then no CA/SEGA member ever responded!

I have played Attila quite extensively. However, I know the difference between what I claim I experienced, and what I prove or not. The two are quite different things.

I think this is more of a case of siege escalation in Attila needing more nuance (i.e. only add siege escalation if artillery is present) than it being needed at all in Thrones of Britannia.

It was. Different things effected siege escalation differently; size of force, technology, artillery, etc. They all had a weight point that acted on how much damage the settlement would take with each turn. So, perhaps, the case should be made for how much each of those points weigh.

[zoner16]

It was. Different things effected siege escalation differently; size of force, technology, artillery, etc. They all had a weight point that acted on how much damage the settlement would take with each turn. So, perhaps, the case should be made for how much each of those points weigh.

Interesting. I never noticed. It still leaves the question of what's causing the damage if the army doesn't have artillery. Perhaps they could add the ability to construct static artillery pieces as the attacker.

[NostalgiaFan]

So are battles still bland and weightless? almost all the trailers and gameplay vids didn't tell me anything different.

[stevehoos]

Siege battles have been broken since the torch days of Rome 2. CA implemented siege escalation as a replacement for torches in their Attila patch. Then the exploding towers saga also began, that's a tale for another day.

[zoner16]

Siege battles have been broken since the torch days of Rome 2. CA implemented siege escalation as a replacement for torches in their Attila patch. Then the exploding towers saga also began, that's a tale for another day.

Lets not kid ourselves. Sieges have always been broken with the maybe exception of Shogun 2. The only question was how much.

[PointOfViewGun]

Interesting. I never noticed. It still leaves the question of what's causing the damage if the army doesn't have artillery. Perhaps they could add the ability to construct static artillery pieces as the attacker.

The idea was that there are other mechanisms like sapping or use of timber in structures for heat. Sapping, for example, can take down walls. On the other hand, as supplies run low people will start to burn up timber from buildings to stay warm. It will be much harder to extinguish random fires as well. Though for these to take effect you need to wait many turns. If I remember correctly, most walled cities took 16 turns to completely surrender, and it took half that for the city to start taking real damage.

[Commissar Caligula_]

With siege escalation you also sometimes see barricades, trenches and dead bodies everywhere. Its just to simulate the passing of time, with a few failed assaults and stuff having already taken place.