Backstabbing

[Riso]

Can you do anything about this behaviour or is this just to braindeadly hardcoded?

There I am, England, controlling all provinces on both sides along the English Channel. I have an alliance with France, our relations range between outstanding and Perfect thanks to the large amount of coin in my purse, and yet, those French bastards betray me!

I would have understood if the relations were only reasonable, but they were nothing short of excellent.

[DrJambo]

Why is everyone so against backstabbing? It happens in real life and the human will do it if they think they can benefit from it.

[AnatolyChekov]

actually the backstabbing is reduced a lot, and it seems that when they break it, they break it GOOD.. i remember playing as france and i had an alliance with the HRE for some time, and when they broke it i expected it and they sent 4 full stacks to take 2 cities at once, now thats what i call betrayal!

[mkk]

Yeah, with the vanilla game a common backstabbing was a few ship attacks and little else. I'm sure there's some room for tweaking but it's much improved here.

[GrandViZ]

I like the level of backstabbing as it is now. I will not turn it down any further!

[Riso]

I don't want to make it stop, I want to make it more sensible! It makes no sense to backstab me with excellent relations!

[GrandViZ]

I don't want to make it stop, I want to make it more sensible! It makes no sense to backstab me with excellent relations!

<decision_entry>
<!--
If target is trusted ally and no warmonger,
then >>> cannot force invade, we want to stay allies
-->
<min_entry trusted_ally="true"/>
<max_entry target_num_enemies="4" stance="Allied"/>
<faction_attitude can_force_invade="false"/>
</decision_entry>

This is one of the preconditions implemented in the UAI. An alliance will hold, if you are a trusted ally and you have not more than 3 enemies (+ rebels). If you experience backstabbing, than your relations or your global reputation were too bad.

Other than that there are several time-based conditions that will keep the AI from backstabbing right after signing an alliance.

So if you want your alliances to hold, than watch your diplomatic actions!

IMO this is reasonable!

Regards
GrandViZ

[AnatolyChekov]

hmm didnt know u couldnt have more than 3 enemies to keep an alliance

[GrandViZ]

hmm didnt know u couldnt have more than 3 enemies to keep an alliance

You can, but not endlessly and only if other time- and relation-based conditions apply! Maximum in such a situation is about 40 turns!

[AnatolyChekov]

ah ok, i agree on a maximum alliance time except in the these conditions:
- Orthodox alliance between Russia/Byzantium should last forever
- Muslim solidarity against christians shouldnt have a maximum too

[GrandViZ]

ah ok, i agree on a maximum alliance time except in the these conditions:
- Orthodox alliance between Russia/Byzantium should last forever
- Muslim solidarity against christians shouldnt have a maximum too

Well, i found them to be quite solidly united . I've never seen the Byzantines backstab on the Russians or vice versa. Except for the animosity between the Turks and Egypt the islamic factions hold together quite well.

[AnatolyChekov]

you're right, it just pains me when i play as egypt or turkey that one of them breaks our united front

same in my current campaign as turkey, Egypt betrayed me after long enough time to prepare.. but the Moors are still my mighty allies
Egypt brought it onto themselves and i had to conquer all their lands for the "bigger ottoman empire" hehe

[GODzilla]

So...having more than 3 enemies will cause a chain reaction, right? Every ally, even if it's a trusted one and even if you have a good relation to that ally, will betray you possibly?!

Wouldn't it be better if really trusted allies will stay with the player forming an alliance against the enemies of the player? This way battles with allied forced will be more common. I would like it.

/edit: Can you post instructions on how to raise the number of enemies, so that allies only fall off you not until you have...let's say 5 enemies? Thanks in advance.

/edit2: Nevermind, I was blind ^^. You already posted the instructions, we just need to change the value at "max_entry target_num_enemies="4", right?

[DrJambo]

Yep, correct, bearing in mind that 1 of those is always the slave faction.

[todorov]

agree with Riso and Godzilla , more sensible alliance ai , backstab makes the game fun but its getting bored if there was too much of it even u had perfect relation with them, i always check and keep my perfect relation every 5 turns, its like alliance for longer neutral and trade right.. u understand what i mean?

if you are a trusted ally and you have not more than 3 enemies <-- its cool but i think theres a problem with islamic factions what if i played as the moors and the pope called crusade on my land , 4 catholic factions joined the crusade and when its over, those catholic factions wont accept ceasefire?

except for the backstab, keep up the nice work ,best mod to play with

[GrandViZ]

agree with Riso and Godzilla , more sensible alliance ai , backstab makes the game fun but its getting bored if there was too much of it even u had perfect relation with them, i always check and keep my perfect relation every 5 turns, its like alliance for longer neutral and trade right.. u understand what i mean?

if you are a trusted ally and you have not more than 3 enemies <-- its cool but i think theres a problem with islamic factions what if i played as the moors and the pope called crusade on my land , 4 catholic factions joined the crusade and when its over, those catholic factions wont accept ceasefire?

You have a point here. It needs a different solution for at least the islamic factions.

[AnatolyChekov]

yeah, they need more solidarity... except in what case should they be able to backstab? only before the first crusade perhaps?

[briny_norman]

Well, just had a pretty strange experience in my Milan campaign.
The HRE attacked me (unprovoked) and suddenly I found myself excommunicated and at war with the Papal States too. Although I had near perfect relations with the pope (9 out of 10).
Isn't it the HRE that is supposed to be punished by the pope for attacking me?
It all happened in one AI turn, so I hadn't retaliated against the HRE or anything yet.

The Papal States were allied with the HRE and one of my own allies had just been excommunicated the turn before. :hmmm:

If the pope excommunicates anybody that his allies attacks - well, then being allied with the pope is a pretty potent weapon. And if I am being punished for something my ally did, well, that seems a bit unfair.

[GrandViZ]

Well, just had a pretty strange experience in my Milan campaign.
The HRE attacked me (unprovoked) and suddenly I found myself excommunicated and at war with the Papal States too. Although I had near perfect relations with the pope (9 out of 10).
Isn't it the HRE that is supposed to be punished by the pope for attacking me?
It all happened in one AI turn, so I hadn't retaliated against the HRE or anything yet.

The Papal States were allied with the HRE and one of my own allies had just been excommunicated the turn before. :hmmm:

If the pope excommunicates anybody that his allies attacks - well, then being allied with the pope is a pretty potent weapon. And if I am being punished for something my ally did, well, that seems a bit unfair.

The papal states should not have been allied to the HRE. When did this happen? I will see into it, thanks for reporting.

Regards
GrandViZ

[kleemann]

Hm, i like back stabbing. Because then you have to worry about your defenses. Total War is the name of the game.

GranViz - if human player choose to play with very hard settings, can you turn AI more agressive towards him? That is the point of VH settings i belive.