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Thread: Problems with Pylos

  1. #1
    Decanus
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    Default Problems with Pylos

    Actually a relatively quick question. As Athens, if you occupy Pylos, is that supposed to cause Messenia to revolt and Elis to leave the Peloponnesian League? It did not for me, and I wanted to see if that was intentional or not. Not like it will make or break my Athens game, but I was kind of hoping for a cool bit of chaos near Sparta.

    In other news, I made Lokris in Boiotia my client state, then they conquered Thessaly, and then somehow they stopped being my client. Slightly confusing. On the other hand, now I can conquer Thessaly in the near future and get my hands on that sweet, sweet Thessalian cavalry.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Actually a relatively quick question. As Athens, if you occupy Pylos, is that supposed to cause Messenia to revolt and Elis to leave the Peloponnesian League? It did not for me, and I wanted to see if that was intentional or not. Not like it will make or break my Athens game, but I was kind of hoping for a cool bit of chaos near Sparta.

    In other news, I made Lokris in Boiotia my client state, then they conquered Thessaly, and then somehow they stopped being my client. Slightly confusing. On the other hand, now I can conquer Thessaly in the near future and get my hands on that sweet, sweet Thessalian cavalry.
    I don't know if anything extra special happens in Pylos (unless the modders can explain) after you take it besides Sparta having a negative PO effect.
    I know when I first tested out the mod with Sparta it definitely caused a lot of tension. Raiding Pylos and Messenia will keep them distracted but sadly I don't think any major chain of chaos will occur - I'm certain the effects will be a lot stronger if you are playing as Sparta!

    yes It is somewhat unfortunate since Pylos/sphacteria victories nearly ended the war in Athens' favour. Just FYI, Sparta does not have near as big of an army as Athens.
    If you have already beat some Sparta armies you might have removed many of their elite heavy Moroi.
    Last edited by Badnercalabrese; January 25, 2018 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Thanks man! It's fine if Phal and Co. did not implement that for when the AI plays Sparta. It's fairly easy to take Pylos with a fleet (harder to hold it, however), so making it that easy to knock out a chunk of Sparta's League would be difficult to balance. I sent Cleon with his bodyguard to Pylos and let him buy mercs to his heart's content. We'll probably lightning strike Messenia soon to Liberate it. I need to devote some research to Diplomacy because there's a lot of ill will in my direction. Might have to delay the Thessaly offensive until the Aggression meter calms down.

    I have not fought Sparta much - only the spawned stacks. They might be making their move on Argo, however. I should dispatch an army now that the Theban armies have been reduced.

    There are a lot of good AOR units out in Aetolia and Ambrakia. I can see why you would enjoy a Corinth campaign.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    If I remember correctly losing Pylos causes a Messenian rebellion only if the player is Sparta. We did not kept that for the Ai because it could not handle it making the occupation of Pylos a shortcut for a quick Athenian victory. To be 100% sure though I need to check the tables when I return home from work

  5. #5
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    What you're saying makes sense and lines up with what I'm seeing. Nothing else is needed. Besides, completing that objective nets the player several thousand gold, so it's hardly a wasted effort.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    What you're saying makes sense and lines up with what I'm seeing. Nothing else is needed. Besides, completing that objective nets the player several thousand gold, so it's hardly a wasted effort.
    Yeah If I recall my first crack at sparta I lost Pylos early and that prompted my first rage quit [emoji23] ...I think it would be too convenient against the AI.

    I love how you took pylos with Kleon and mercenary skirmishers!
    The more I read about the war..the more I sympathise with Kleon.

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  7. #7
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Well, technically it was Nikias and the Western Fleet that did the dirty work. Cleon was presumably riding on the flagship with his bodyguard, but they were too seasick to help take the town. They got better after the battle and helped secure the town with mercenaries and Messenian hoplites released from duty in the Epirus theater.

    There's too many things to research! ;-D

    I want better ships AND Iphicratean Hoplites AND diplomacy boosts AND the strategy techs AND eventually Panhellenism. ALL THE THINGS. Probably diplomacy for now because I've been too successful in conquering and those hegemony penalties are REALLY stacking up. It's nice to have an actual good reason not to just steamroll the map.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Well, technically it was Nikias and the Western Fleet that did the dirty work. Cleon was presumably riding on the flagship with his bodyguard, but they were too seasick to help take the town. They got better after the battle and helped secure the town with mercenaries and Messenian hoplites released from duty in the Epirus theater.

    There's too many things to research! ;-D

    I want better ships AND Iphicratean Hoplites AND diplomacy boosts AND the strategy techs AND eventually Panhellenism. ALL THE THINGS. Probably diplomacy for now because I've been too successful in conquering and those hegemony penalties are REALLY stacking up. It's nice to have an actual good reason not to just steamroll the map.
    Well if you want to go that deep then Demosthenes is the true master mind but credit to Cleon for finally putting an end to the stalemate.
    Nothing against the great Thukidides, but it is obvious he had a major grief with Cleon and sought to portray him negatively.

    ...there is a reason the Athenian people honoured Cleon at the highest level while Nikias was left out of such honours.

    All those desires you have will come true!
    I prefer the classical hoplites over iphicratean. Just FYI -They play similar to epivati hoplitai just with longer spears! I almost had a disaster with them because they were still on skirmish mod.

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  9. #9
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Wait, the Iphicratean Hoplites are going to have long spears AND javelins?!? That's awesome. There are a lot of interpretations of the unit out there, and it will be very interesting to see how this one plays out. But if it's anything like the marine hoplites, I'll be quite happy. The only thing holding back the marin hoplites in my eyes is their small unit size (and remembering to turn off skirmish). If the Iphicrateans are like that but with full unit size...........well that's all I'll ever need in a unit ever again.

    TO THE RESEARCH LAB!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Iphicrateans are indeed considered a prodromous unit for Macedonian phalanx. The same goes for Boiotian prodromoi hoplites. Those were the units that inspired Philip during his"visit" there. There is a more detailed presentation plus sources in Athenian preview HERE. There is also a very interesting presentation in Boiotian preview showing the evolution towards Macedonian phalanx inside the prodromoi preview HERE.
    Doesn't take long to read and is quite interesting

  11. #11

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Wait, the Iphicratean Hoplites are going to have long spears AND javelins?!? That's awesome. There are a lot of interpretations of the unit out there, and it will be very interesting to see how this one plays out. But if it's anything like the marine hoplites, I'll be quite happy. The only thing holding back the marin hoplites in my eyes is their small unit size (and remembering to turn off skirmish). If the Iphicrateans are like that but with full unit size...........well that's all I'll ever need in a unit ever again.

    TO THE RESEARCH LAB!
    That is exactly how they play! You will love them...I am more of a classic hoplite guy.
    Just know your special hoplites you can recruit 8 at a time I think...and when you put them in phalanx it takes them a few minutes before they can move.

    And thanks for those links phal. As I said I much prefer the classic hoplites. I have a near spartan level of stubbornness to change but it is very interesting to see how these special Athenian and Theban units were the precursor to Alexanders' backbone.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Yes their temporary immobility represents the time needed for them to regroup -reform from a skirmishing unit to a phalanx unit

  13. #13

    Default Re: Problems with Pylos

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalangitis View Post
    Yes their temporary immobility represents the time needed for them to regroup -reform from a skirmishing unit to a phalanx unit
    No justification needed.
    We read all the time how long a phalanx took to set up - especially a pike phalanx which I think was often not depicted enough on TW games.

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