Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

[Abdülmecid I]

Don't try to move your goalposts, ioannis. Our dispute is about the government and state institutions, not some random fans of music waiving their country's former flag. The rally you praise so much was also apparently full of irredentist slogans, but nobody implied that the Greek state plans to expand on the Balkans. If you want to know how the Macedonian authorities react to the display of the Vergina Sun by state officials, you can study the Toronto controversy.

LOOOOL, the video is shot at the time when the anarchist rats had already fled the building after throwing the bricks and rocks.

So you now admit that the hooligans burned an empty 19th century building. Nice, glad we agree that your previous claim about fascists responding to anarchists throwing rocks with Molotov cocktails was just a lie.

Like I said, the vandalising is more than likely a provocation on the part of the anarchists. Until such time as arrests are made, and proof has been given, your opinion is as good as mine.

Black flag operation, eh? I hope that you won't be disappointed knowing that nobody outside some participants of the nationalist rally is going to take your claim very seriously. Given common sense and Golden Dawn's proud infatuation with the 3rd Reich, I have a feeling that the culprits are the far-right gangs running amok in the city. Nice to see that you are a fan of presumption of innocence. That didn't seem to be the case, when you accused "anarchist rats" of that building of various illegal activities and violent attacks against poor protestors peacefully holding incendiary bombs (activities for which no proof has been provided yet, unlike the article and the photo about the vandalised Holocaust memorial).

First of all, it is completely unhistoric and provocative to speak of "macedonian constitution". The ONLY Macedonians that exist are Greeks and nothing else.

Sorry, but there's a right called self-determination. Unfortunately, it's internationally recognized, although nationalists apparently cheer for it only selectively, as long as it benefits their beloved tribe.

Should you have any questions regarding parts of the text, ask me.

I told you that Greek blogs are not considered a very credible source in this case. I am sure that if the Macedonian Constitution indeed includes some openly irredentist articles, there will be several reputable sites in English reporting it. Unless there is an international Bolshevik conspiracy censoring it, but I remain skeptical towards such a possibility. Anyway, since you shared the blog and politely offered to clarify any ambiguous points, then I am happy to ask one specific questions. Could you translate the content of the First Amendement of the Third Article:

H Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας δεν έχει εδαφικές διεκδικήσεις έναντι των γειτονικών Κρατών.

I just have a gut feeling that it's particularly important for our debate.

[ioannis76]

The rally you praise so much was also apparently full of irredentist slogans

It was not. Show me one such slogan or one such poster. You have NONE, and you are just making stuff up.

If you want to know how the Macedonian authorities react to the display of the Vergina Sun by state officials, you can study the Toronto controversy.

Like I said, they are not "macedonian" but Skopjan authorities, or Vardarskan authorities.
The current government in Skopje is trying to coddle Greece into accepting Skopje's NATO candidancy. They are giving up trinklets in order to get it, and of course even these will be changed back once they get in NATO. No, thank you, Greece should not accept any kind of solution unless the country changes the name to Vardarksa or Central Balkan Republic. Furthermore, to name the country "macedonia" even if we were to accept the existence of "macedonians" would just ignore the rights of the huge Albanian minority that lives there, now, wouldn't it? Albanians of Skopje do not want the country to be named "macedonia".

So you now admit that the hooligans burned an empty 19th century building. Nice, glad we agree that your previous claim about fascists responding to anarchists throwing rocks with Molotov cocktails was just a lie.

Nice attempt trying to twist the truth, but it doesn't work. The anarchists threw rocks and bricks (and it IS a lethal attack to throw a brick/rock at someone, particularly from that height and that distance). And since you are so much interested in flying objects, here is a report on one of the the attacks of the anarchists on the peaceful rally (from the "neo-nazi" medium called CNN):
http://www.cnn.gr/news/ellada/story/...oys-diadilotes

Επεισόδια σημειώθηκαν στη Λεωφόρο Βασιλέως Γεωργίου στο κέντρο της Θεσσαλονίκης, όπου οι συμμετέχοντες του συλλαλητηρίου για την ονομασία της πΓΔΜ δέχθηκαν επίθεση από αντιεξουσιαστές.
Άτομα που κρατούσαν ελληνικές σημαίες, κατευθύνονταν προς το συλλαλητήριο για τη Μακεδονία και πέρασαν μπροστά από την κατάληψη «Σχολείο». Εκεί, σύμφωνα με τοπικό μέσο, δέχθηκαν επίθεση.

Οι αντιεξουσιαστές τους πέταξαν μπουκάλια, πέτρες και φωτοβολίδες. Οι άνδρες των ΜΑΤ έφτασαν άμεσα και απέκλεισαν το σημείο.

It's a short report, so I will spare you the trouble of google translate:
Incidents occurred in Vasileos Georgiou Avenue in the centre of Thessaloniki (not really centre, but anyway), where participants in the rally for the name of FYROM were attacked by anarchists. People holding Greek flags were heading toward the rally for Macedonia and they walked in front of the "School" building occupation (the anarchists have named the occupied building "School"). There, according to a local medium, they were attacked. The anarchists threw bottles, rocks and flares at them. The riot police arrived and closed off the area). If you look at the map, the Occupation "School" is only a couple of blocks away from the "Libertaria" Occupation. As I said, these buildings are rallying points for anarchists, as well as "ammunition depots" (which would explain how fast the fire spread in the "Libertaria" building. Finally, if you look at the map, the "School" Occupation is only a few blocks away from the "Libertaria" Occupation.

Black flag operation, eh?

It wouldn't be the first time. We've seen it before. They have done it before, even against the police:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_GCSmaJDkw
and here in some more detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr01hrdkEsA
Here, the men of the riot police were accused of stealing water (LOL) from a kiosk, which it turns out that they didn't actually do anything of the kind. Yet the anarchists showed a video which was cut and pasted to show what they want to.
You hear the junky (apparently, from the voice) saying "what are you doing? Are you going to steal the water?"
There was and investigation, and the police officers were acquitted.

Sorry, but there's a right called self-determination. Unfortunately, it's internationally recognized, although nationalists apparently cheer for it only selectively, as long as it benefits their beloved tribe.

Self determination is one thing, identity theft is quite another. What is being done here is just that, identity theft. The purpose of this is to have access to the "real estate" of the identity owner (access to the warm seas, a dream of panslavism). Well, no.

I told you that Greek blogs are not considered a very credible source in this case.

The article I presented was written in a journal, by a man who holds a PhD, and who writes with his own name, not some anonymous person on the internet.
I see that your previous few posts are making any attempt at a discussion quite impossible. The fact that you also chose to isolate a phrase from the whole text that I presented is also not something that furthers any form of reasonable discussion. Your persistence in referring to "macedonians" is also quite provocative and insulting. Unless you can rectify this situation, I am afraid that I will not continue this conversation. Thank you for your participation anyway, such as it was.

[Abdülmecid I]

So, admittedly no rocks were thrown from the burned building. Not that "self-defense against rats" is a serious excuse in civilized countries, where disputes are settled by law and not mob justice. There is no such think as identity theft, you can't really arbitrarily identify with a kingdom that ceased to exist for more than two millennia and then expect to monopolize the term. That's not how international law, contemporary ethics and common sense work. Unfortunately, despite your promise, no translation was provided. I wonder why, but, in any case, let me make a try:

The Republic of Macedonia does not have any territorial claims against neighboring countries.

Is it an accurate translation of the content of the Greek blog with an obvious agenda? Your Albanian argument is neither serious nor relevant to our debate about irredentism. However I must say that it's a bit surprising to notice that you consider it as an unacceptable practice, because that would mean that almost every member of the United Nations, from Russia and Greece to China and Finland violate the rights of their ethnic minorities, by choosing an official name based on nationality.

[Sir Adrian]

btw, I just found this video again (I was looking for it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m39ds3rGPTk

Skopjans celebrating a handball victory with Vergina Sun flags. THe Vergina sun is a hellenic symbol, found in the area of Vergina, Macedonia, Greece. Naaaah, not expansive at all.

The Vergina flag is actually not a hellenic symbol. It was adopted int hellenic culture but the design is paleo-balkan. Moreover waving a flag does not constitute expansionist ideas.

I live on the border with Hungary. Every other hungarian car I see around town has a big fat greater hungary map bumper-sticker and the word Transylvania is Hungary on the windshield, and we just ignore them. If a flag gets you so excited I wonder how you would react to that.

[Aanker]

Why should we make political let alone military decisions affecting millions of people based on the doings of a long-gone empire that has been dead for more than 2000 years? Why should people suffer or die for territorial changes, or profits be lost in border disputes, or the security of the Balkans be set aside to satisfy what is nothing but tribal fetishism?

Everyone seems to be fine with the naming of Romania, which was but a province of Rome. Or modern Israel.

[ioannis76]

Moreover waving a flag does not constitute expansionist ideas.

Claiming that my hometown is their capital is a pretty ing serious business for me, and as it turns out for hundreds of thousands of Greeks.

Why should we make political let alone military decisions affecting millions of people based on the doings of a long-gone empire that has been dead for more than 2000 years? Why should people suffer or die for territorial changes, or profits be lost in border disputes, or the security of the Balkans be set aside to satisfy what is nothing but tribal fetishism?

Because not fighting for what is yours, not fighting for your national identity, not fighting for your history is one sure way of losing your nation, either quickly, by means of an immediate military conquest, or gradually, by means of "rape jihads" and/or gradual ethnic cleansing (Komitatzi units that were active in the area of Macedonia in the early 20ieth century were doing just that). Yeah, everyone would like a non-aggression, free world, without ze bad kapitalizds and all that, but unfortunately, human nature is rather more bestial than that. Those who cannot realise this have a huge problem.

Everyone seems to be fine with the naming of Romania, which was but a province of Rome. Or modern Israel.

Romania does not claim Italian soil. As for Israel, even women are at arms and serve a military term, and they build walls in order to defend what is rightfully theirs, against those who would love to eradicate them in a huge bloodbath. I think some northern countries should be exemplified by Israel, it would have saved many people from rape and murder.

[PointOfViewGun]

Romania does not claim Italian soil.

Where does Macedonia claim Greek lands?

[Gallus]

Claiming that my hometown is their capital is a pretty ing serious business for me, and as it turns out for hundreds of thousands of Greeks.

Chill out mate, it's probably a joke movement, like the Slovenian joke chant "Trst je naš". Nobody actually means anything by it.

[ioannis76]

Chill out mate, it's probably a joke movement, like the Slovenian joke chant "Trst je naš". Nobody actually means anything by it.

I am afraid it's not a joke. It's a continuation of the early 20ieth century Komitatzi paramilitary groups who went in an orgy of slaughter of Greeks. In fact, the founder of the Kimitatzi, the Bulgarian Goce Delcev, is one of the basic Skopjan figureheads and symbols.
This is a statue of the "macedonian" Delcev in Skopje:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._in_Skopje.JPG

No joke, I am afraid, the early 20ieth century was extremely bloody for the area. And it seems that some people are quite nostalgic of slaughter. Well,

[mishkin]

"If you want to promote nationalism, invent external aggressors"

"Violence, we want violence"

- random nationalist -

A quick Google search does not give any results. Can someone answer Setekh's question?

Where does Macedonia claim Greek lands?

[RandomPerson2000]

Where does Macedonia claim Greek lands?

A quick Google search does not give any results. Can someone answer Setekh's question?

From its independence in 1991, the Republic of Macedonia/FYROM used to have to have territorial claims on parts of the geographical region of Macedonia owned by Greece. However in a Interim Accord signed by both the Republic of Macedonia/FYROM and Greece, the former renounced all territorial claims on Greece and it hasn't reactivated those claims since.

Or they could simply rename it Vardarska, which was its original name before Tito changed it.

Actually Vardarska was never used as a name of any region until 1929 when the provinces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia were redrawn to 9 new provinces called banovinas. The borders of the banavinas were specifically drawn so that they didn't correspond to pre WW1 or ethnic boundaries and the banavinas were named after geographical features, mostly rivers like for example the Drava Banovina was named after the Drava, the Vardar Banovina was named after the Vardar river etc.


Also if you're wondering why the Hrvatska province is not in the map I've posted, it is due to it, the autonomous banovina of Croatia being created in 1939 as a compromise to Croatian nationalists by the Yugoslav government thus showing that the banovina was already failing as a system to divide up nationalist movements in Yugoslavia even though it was only about a decade old when the banovina of Croatia was established.

[Basil II the B.S]

Oh ffs. The country is known as Macedonia. It's always been known as Macedonia. The whole issue is ridiculous.

Wrong. It's Paionia at best and the local Bulgarians inhabiting the land have no right to build their national identity by claiming the cultural heritage of a neighbouring region and completely unrelated ethnic group.

Edit: it, Roma Victrix beat me to it.

slavs were settling in greece all the way down south in the early middle ages, someone should remind the cuckoo nationalists that they are related to those guys. also, werent even the old greeks pretty adamant that the ancient makedonians werent "greek", and barely even hellenes? culture and language are the only factors that really allow us to define any group of people, is the language such a big deal? every nationalist tries to own a piece of ancient history, esp in and around the the balkans.

also, they are refered to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia by various international organisations, because of the name dispute.

Hilarious.

It's a sad moment for Europe anyway. The economic and cultural annihilation of the founding fathers of our culture is almost complete.

Why should we make political let alone military decisions affecting millions of people based on the doings of a long-gone empire that has been dead for more than 2000 years? Why should people suffer or die for territorial changes, or profits be lost in border disputes, or the security of the Balkans be set aside to satisfy what is nothing but tribal fetishism?

Everyone seems to be fine with the naming of Romania, which was but a province of Rome. Or modern Israel.

History defines who we are.

Just because we decide to abolish ourselves, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world will follow. They won't. The citizens of the world are citizens of nothing. There's a reason if the most international people of the world, the Jews, after thousands of years of nomadism, decided they wanted their own nation-state: because when you are a citizen of nothing, then someone might as well decide to get rid of you and if you don't have a homeland, then there's no refuge.

[Admiral Piett]

Greece is not unique in this regard. A lot of Hispanic folks here in Texas have banners claiming Texas is Mexico. It's just a long running joke because there are more Mexicans here now than there were when it was part of Mexico. No one here takes it seriously. Neither should Greeks. Besides, is the Macedonian military even capable of any kind of invasion even if it were interested? Yeah, it is annoying to have to explain to people that Macedonia the country is different from historic Macedonia in Greece. But I haven't seen anything here that Greek officials are giving up the name dispute nor that Bulgar-Macedonians are interested in the reconquest. Personally, I don't see why the folks in Macedonia don't just join in union with Bulgaria? Surely the economic benefits are there.

[alhoon]

Please show a bit more respect to the "Hard to Read posts" rule in the ToS. Avoid posting in non-English languages, or use large fonts please.

[mishkin]

More to the specific incident, the Greek government seems to be hell bent on giving up the name of Macedonia to a country that has territorial claims on Greece based on that very name. Do you think that, under the weight of the people's opinion, the govenment should change its mind?

The Macedonian government does not claim any Greek territory. (#31)
What were those protesters claiming? The title of the discussion speaks of "Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas". What does that mean? That the current territory of the state of Macedonia should be part of Greece? That it seems intolerable to them that a foreign sovereign state is called, by the will of its rulers and its citizens, Macedonia (or FYROM or whatever)? All this sounds like a joke. The only bad thing is that this is nothing more than tactics to exacerbate the nationalism of a few. Or many. Too many in any case.

[Gallus]

Or they could simply rename it Vardarska, which was its original name before Tito changed it.

You should read up on Yugoslavian history. Most people would consider naming the country after the banovina to be quite offensive. Hrvatska is obviously an exception for the reasons pointed up above.

[Sir Adrian]

Claiming that my hometown is their capital is a pretty ing serious business for me, and as it turns out for hundreds of thousands of Greeks.


.

Again. Can Macedonia do anything about it? No. Does the constant whining stop those people from showing maps of historical Macedonia and claiming your hometown? No. By acting so paranoid all Greece is doing is creating international sympathy for Macedonia. Nobody would give a about Macedonia and the whole issue would be forgotten in a couple of decades if you stopped drawing attention to it.

Also you seem to forget that "greater" Macedonia would have a greek majority.

[ioannis76]

Also you seem to forget that "greater" Macedonia would have a greek majority.

Like I said, these are the descendants of people who committed ethnic cleansing on Greeks, razing Greek villages and terrorising civilians into accepting their own version of the Orthodox Church. Any Greek would either not be a Greek for long, or wouldn't be alive for long. We've seen it before. No, they cannot have the name "Macedonia". Besides, you seem to forget that there are considerable minorities in that country, for example the Albanian minority. To call the country "Macedonia" would just ignore the minorities, which all together constitute approximately 40% of the total population. The name Central Balkan Republic would be much more suited to a country that has such a high percentage of minorities.

You should read up on Yugoslavian history. Most people would consider naming the country after the banovina to be quite offensive. Hrvatska is obviously an exception for the reasons pointed up above.

Like I said, for the reasons I stated above, the best choice for a name would be Central Balkan Republic.

Greece is not unique in this regard. A lot of Hispanic folks here in Texas have banners claiming Texas is Mexico. It's just a long running joke because there are more Mexicans here now than there were when it was part of Mexico.

It may be considered a joke despite history (if I am not mistaken Mexico once claimed, by means of war, a part of the USA), because Mexico is nowhere near capable of threatening the US, and because the official Mexican government never ever claimed Texas as part of Mexico.
Here is an image of their former President, Nikola Gruevski:



The monument he bows to is that of Golce Delcev, the (Bulgarian, Skopje also claims parts of Bulgarian history, such as Tzar Samuil) founder of the Komitatzi paramilitary group, a group endorsed by the Bulgarian government to fight a covert war which would culminate in the annexation of Macedonia (I am referring to Greece when I speak of Macedonia) to Bulgaria, from the collapsing Ottoman Empire. The small map that you see right above his head is the map of "United Macedonia" which very much includes large Greek territories (Western, central and eastern Macedonia), which they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia". I am not sure, but I do believe that Donald would have something to say if the Mexican President dared do something similar. I mean, the US has waged war for much less than that.

[PointOfViewGun]

...the official Mexican government never ever claimed Texas as part of Mexico...

Where did the official Macedonian government ever claimed the Greek province of Macedonia to be part of its own?

[Sir Adrian]

Like I said, these are the descendants of people who committed ethnic cleansing on Greeks, razing Greek villages and terrorising civilians into accepting their own version of the Orthodox Church.

Firstly it is incredibly hypocritical of a greek to complain about ethnic cleansing given what your country has been doing to the Balkan Vlachs and other minorities for nearly 2 centuries. In 257 years the megleno-romanians native of Thessaly went from the most populaous ethnicity to 4000 souls and their villages were replaced by greek colonists and settlers. Case in point salonic which used to have a Megleno-Romanian majority until the 1700s, when the Orlov Rebellion drove them out and greeks started settling in. The Orlov rebellion was a greek anti-ottoman rebellion led by russians btw.

Second last time greeks never lived there in great numbers until the 1850s. The native population of that region are the macedo-romanians and aromanians. Who are the latinised descendants of the real macedonains. Modern macedonians are salvicised macedo-romanians. In 1890 greeks were 24% of the total population of Thessaly. In 1913 they were 46%. So don't go ing me about burned villages when your population increased by 137% in the span of 23 years.

Thirdly the Orthodox church has no versions only administrative divisions and until the 1800s the entirety of Macedonia was under jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church by decree of the Patriarch of Constantinople.