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Thread: Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

  1. #381
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

    Quote Originally Posted by bekiristein View Post
    Νεες χωρες (plural of χωρα) was used for adnintritative regions of the church in Macedonia. Διαμενω means stay even temporarily, since in census people are counted where they are found the day the census is taken place (if the same methodology of today was used in 1925) it makes some sense. Although I am reading it hasty it doesnt seem to be an honest mistake simply because it contradicts what Michailidis writes. Again I might be mistaken because its hard to read on my mobile.
    Από τα παραπάνω στατιστικά στοιχεία προκύπτει ξεκάθαρα πως η συντριπτική πλειονότητα των Σλαβοφώνων κατοίκων -τόσο των πρώην Πατριαρχικών, λιγότερο, όσο και των πρώην Εξαρχικών, περισσότερο- διαβιούσε στη Δυτική Μακεδονία, στις περιοχές της Φλωρίνης και της Καστοριάς καθώς και στις περιοχές της Νότιας, της Πέλλης και των Γιαννιτσών (συνολικά το 62% των Σλαβοφώνων ζούσε στους τρεις νομούς Φλωρίνης, Καστοριάς και Πέλλης). Αντίθετα, τόσο στην Κεντρική όσο και στην Ανατολική Μακεδονία ο αριθμός τους εμφανιζόταν σημαντικά χαμηλότερος. Πιο συγκεκριμένα:
    α΄) Οι Σλαβόφωνοι (πρώην Πατριαρχικοί και Εξαρχικοί) αποτελούσαν το 11% του συνολικού πληθυσμού της Μακεδονίας. Επίσης, στο σύνολο του πληθυσμού της Ελλάδος (6.204.684 άτομα, σύμφωνα με την απογραφή του 1928) οι Σλαβόφωνοι δεν υπερέβαιναν το 2,6%.
    β΄) Οι Σλαβόφωνοι αποτελούσαν το 27% του συνολικού πληθυσμού της Δυτικής Μακεδονίας, το 8% της Κεντρικής Μακεδονίας και το 6% της Ανατολικής Μακεδονίας.
    γ΄) Στη Δυτική Μακεδονία διαβιούσαν 75.384 Σλαβόφωνοι, ποσοστό 46%, το 69% των οποίων μάλιστα ήταν πρώην Εξαρχικοί. Αντίστοιχα, στην Κεντρική Μακεδονία ζούσαν 62.870 Σλαβόφωνοι, ποσοστό 39% (16% πρώην Εξαρχικοί) και στην Ανατολική Μακεδονία παρέμεναν 24.252 Σλαβόφωνοι, ποσοστό 15% (5% πρώην Εξαρχικοί).
    δ΄) Οι Σλαβόφωνοι αποτελούσαν την πλειοψηφία του πληθυσμού μόνο στο νομό Φλωρίνης. Πιο συγκεκριμένα, αποτελούσαν το 77% του νομού Φλωρίνης, το 45% του νομού Καστοριάς, το 31% του νομού Πέλλης, το 17% του νομού Σερρών και το 10% του νομού Κιλκίς, ενώ μόλις το 7% του νομού Κοζάνης, το 4% του πληθυσμού του νομού Δράμας, το 4% του νομού Θεσσαλονίκης και το 3% του νομού Ημαθίας.
    ε΄) Στις περιοχές Κοζάνης, Ανασελίτσας, Γρεβενών, Χαλκιδικής, Αρναίας και Καβάλας δεν υπήρχαν καθόλου Σλαβόφωνοι, ενώ στην επαρχία Κατερί*νης ήταν ελάχιστοι (μόλις 30 πρώην Πατριαρχικοί).
    Η εγκυρότητα της παραπάνω απογραφής επιβεβαιώνεται και από το γεγονός ότι δημοσιεύθηκε εν μέρει το 1930 από τον Ζ. Άνσελ (Ancel) στο βιβλίο του LaMacedoineetsonEvolutionContemporaine . Η βασική διαφορά των δύο στατιστικών είναι ότι ο Άνσελ κάνει τον διαχωρισμό ανάμεσα σε Έλληνες και Σλάβους και προσμετρά τους πρώην Πατριαρχικούς στους Έλληνες, ενώ η αυθεντική στατιστική καταμετρά ξεχωριστά τόσο τους πρώην Εξαρχικούς όσο και τους πρώην Πατριαρχικούς. Είναι επίσης σημαντικό ότι ο Άνσελ αναφέρει πως στη σύνταξη της στατιστικής κατά πάσα πιθανότητα συμμετείχε και ο Πάλλης.

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  2. #382

    Default Re: Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

    Because the area used to be ruled by Bulgaria, and is still claimed by Bulgarian nationalists, and the manner in which it was lost (a bloody and costly war that nearly destroyed the country) is still a sore spot and reason of tension with Serbia, Romania and Greece even 100 years later.

    The Bulgarian president does not want to feed the ultra-nationalist psychopats in his country. Nobody is afraid of the "might" of Macedonia.
    What you're saying doesn't make much sense. More likely, the Bulgarian President doesn't want Skopje to have any claims on Bulgarian soil. Bulgaria is giving passports to a huge number of Skopjans, including one of their former Presidents, Ljubco Georgievski:

  3. #383
    Kritias's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I think you overestimate the role of Fallmerayer to the justification of the crimes committed by the Germans. Some officers may have used it as an excuse for their massacres, but the extermination of Greeks was never a government policy, similar to that exercised against Jews, Communists, homosexuals and etc. After all the Germans showed enough ideological flexibility to ally themselves with Romanians, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Russians (SS volunteers) and even Greeks (local collaborators). The reason why so many Greeks died during the course of the war is the historical vulnerability of the country to food shortages (check the surrender of Athens in 404 B.C. and the emergence of... Critias ). The requisition of the occupation authorities, bad harvests due to harsh winters and the general disruption of trade, because of the war, the aerial and naval blockade of the British meant that the danger of famine was inevitable for a country lacking self-sufficiency. Basically, the only neighbor capable of supplying Greeks with badly needed food supplies would be Turkey, thanks to her neutrality, but that help could never be enough, especially considering that any ship would be continuously threatened by the the forces of the United Kingdom.
    This post will be slightly off-topic so I apologize for that.

    You raise some valid points about the economic reasons why a famine was more likely to occur in Greece during the occupation and, yes, the UK played a compounding factor on the famine. However, let's examine what happened to another great famine, also under naval blockade, under more strenuous conditions for the Nazis: The Hongerwinter of 1944-1945 in the Netherlands. The Dutch Famine was countered by "Swedish bread", which was baked in the Netherlands from flour shipped in from Sweden. Shortly after these shipments, the German occupiers allowed coordinated air drops of food over German-occupied Dutch territory by the Royal Air Force and Royal Canadian Air Force from 29 April to 7 May, and by the U.S. Army Air Forces from 1 to 8 May. This was Operation Manna (RAF/RCAF) and Operation Chowhound (USAAF). The Germans agreed not to shoot at the planes flying the mercy missions, and the Allies agreed not to bomb German positions. Operation Faust also trucked in food to Rhenen, which was under German occupation, beginning on 2 May, utilizing 200 vehicles. As a result of this unofficial 'co-ordination' for assisting the Dutch people, casualties from starvation were limited at 18.000-22.000 people. On the other hand, in Greece, the casualties from starvation reached 300.000 people between 1941-1942, with a belated effort to relieve this situation after an international outcry only the United Kingdom reluctantly agreed to listen to.

    The reason for this disparity in numbers and actions is because the Greek starvation was actually an implemented policy by the occupation forces while the Dutch famine was coincidental. Proof of this can be seen in the report presented in 1946 for the War Reperations Commitee, later published in Greek under the title 'Sacrifices of Greece in the Second World War' [K. A. Doxiadis, 1947]. In therein, we can find the following evidence: The slaughter by occupation forces of 60% of the horses, mules, and cattle; 50% of the donkeys, sheep and goats; 80% of the hogs; and 50% of the chickens. Following the destruction of the livestock that could feed the population, the occupational forces destroyed 25% of the country's forests; 56% of the roads; 50 to 90% of the bridges; destroyed or appropriated 65% of automobiles, 60% of the trucks, 80% of the buses, all trains and railways. They also destroyed 80% of the factories and the water and sewage infrastructure [presumably to ease the spread of disease].

    Official German records cited in this report show that during 1941-1944, there was a dramatic decline in Greek food production: wheat and barley, life and death crops for the Greeks, dropped by 40 percent; beans, 36 percent; tobacco, 89 percent; cotton, 75 percent; olive oil, 16 percent; grapes and raisins, 66 percent; wine, 50 percent; fruits, 20 percent. The 1946 report also shows: "principal harbors were blown up… Installations, machinery and quays were destroyed." The Germans also blew up the strategic Corinth canal. In addition, the Germans sank 74% of the Greek ships and destroyed the entirety of non-governmental telephone communications facilities. The countryside had a similar fate. According to the 1946 report, "the occupying forces applied a systematic plan for the destruction of villages. 1,770 Greek villages lie in ashes. In certain parts of the country, particularly near the frontiers, destruction by fire reached the proportion of 90% of the villages of every region."

    According to the occupation government census, In 1940, there were 7,335,000 people in Greece. In December 1942, the population numbered 6,805,000. The report notes that the favorable methods of mass murder included: "Hangings, massacres, shootings and death vans." Goering, replying to the occupation government of Tsolakoglou, as is included in the report, said: 'Supplying Belgium and probably Holland and Norway as well, will be more urgent from the standpoint of military economy than supplying Greece.', denying his request that Germany assists in alleviating the famine. He also states later again, to the German Consul in Greece, '...This continual concern for the aliens must come to an end once and for all... I could not care less when you say that people under your administration are dying of hunger. Let them perish so long as no German starves.'

    At the same time, ethnic cleansing was being conducted in Epirus and Thrace. For example, Cameria was a region in Northern Greece populated mostly by Albanian Muslims. Beginning Tuesday June 27 1944, 673 men women and children were killed in the town of Paramithia. In Gumenica, 192 persons were killed and in the towns of Margellic and Parga, 626 people met their deaths at the hands occupation forces assisted by Greek collaborators. In the town of Filat, 1,286 persons were killed during the period June, 1944, to March, 1945. Hundreds of persons went missing. In all, 2,877 Albanian men, women and children were massacred, 475 women were raped and 68 small villages were razed to the ground including 5,800 houses and places of worship (110 Mosques). By 1945, the Albanian Muslims (Around 30,000) had been either massacred or forced to flee to Albania or Turkey. Another example of unprovoked aggression against Greek populations [meaning, no repression for recent rebel activity], is the massacre at Kommeno [16 August, 1943], a massacre lasting for about eight hours. Of the 680 inhabitants of the village, 317 were murdered, 74 of whom were children aged between one and ten years old.

    To sum up, the extend of the destruction and the methods employed to kill and destroy all sources and means to transport food wasn't coincidental. Nor was the systematic burning down of 1,000 plus villages and the murder or expulsion of their inhabitants. In fact, similar tactics can be seen conducted by the Nazis in Yugoslavia, Poland and the USSR. Ironically, the Nazis were inspired by the Soviets and the event of Holodomor, copying and perfecting the ways to systematically starve out 'undesirable' people.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This is what happened to the country during the Occupation. Red dots, destroyed by fire. Black, bombed. Green, looted. Yellow (shown in percentage pie charts in big cities), intact.

    "In short, I say that as a city we are the school of Hellas, while I doubt if the world can produce a man who, where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happy a versatility, as the Athenian."
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  4. #384
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Apr 2008
    Chania, Greece

    Default Re: Massive rally of Greeks declaring that Macedonia is Hellas, and the leftist propaganda machine

    Historical discussion about the Greek\Roman identity of the Greeks and other citizens of the Byzantine \ Eastern Roman Empire moved in a new thread here.

    As discussion about the rally seems to have stalled for several pages now, this thread will remain locked.
    Last edited by alhoon; February 18, 2018 at 08:18 PM.

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