Rights released by the Tolkien Estate- Middle Earth Total War can now be made-the case for LOTR TW

[twc01]

"Christopher Tolkien, son and literary heir of J.R.R. Tolkien, resigned from the Tolkien Estate. And his departure changes everything.....With Christopher’s departure as an officer of the Tolkien Estate (which was incorporated in 2011), the long-awaited “rights frenzy” for Tolkien properties may soon begin,”

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2017...olkien-estate/


Christopher Tolkien has retired and the rights of the Tolkien estate are up for grabs. Perfect time for CA to make a Lord of the Rings total war. Or, to work with Warner Bros to make a LOTR total war. They have worked together before.

SEGA PARTNERS WITH WARNER BROS.
https://www.warnerbros.com/studio/news/sega-partners-warner-bros-interactive-entertainment-co-publish-“-matrix-online”


Why Lord of the Rings Total war?


Tolkien carries the largest fantasy fan base of all time only expanded by the movies that could be brought into the total war series. A match made in haven. As someone who has not played a total war game since empire, this would get me back into total war. Lord of the Rings is the best selling fantasy book of all time. The Hobbit is the third best fantasy seller. Besides the Bible, LOTR is the third best selling book of all time, the Hobbit is 8th on the all time list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-selling_books
https://jamesclear.com/best-books/best-selling


The world created by Tolkien would fit perfect for the next fantasy total war game. Lord of the Rings provides what Total war needs.

- Large fan base already present
- Multiple diverse factions with both challenges and bonuses for each
- Hugh map of Middle Earth with diverse terrain and battle maps
- Large numbers of diverse units and forces for epic battles
- Large castles for epic siege battles
- Hero's of legend with special abilities
-Agents, spies, assassins, diplomats etc
- Battle over land, sea and air
- Economy and trade
-Exspansions and DLC could be done on the first and second ages

It is not surprising that the most awarded, most downloaded , mod ever made for a total war game is the third age mod.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...-Age-Total-War

Since this mod was done for medieval 2 and was a mod, it had major setbacks. But it shows the poetical for what a CA done Lord of the Rings total war would be, it would simply be the "One game to rule them all"



However there is an irrefutable reason CA needs to make middle earth total war. Tolkien was from England, CA is based in England. Tolkien made LOTR so England could have its own fantasy [like the Norse epics]. Therefore out of sheer duty and patriotism, CA must know make the video game for England. It irrefutable. Or else CA have no right to be called Brits.


contact Games Workshop let them know you want the game to happen.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Contact-Us

[SinisterOmen]

I'm sure CA knows for a good long while how popular of a game a Middle Earth TW would be, and it'd bring a hell of a lot of new fan base also. I don't know how difficult it was before to get the rights to make a LOTR game or if they ever tried.
CA managed to get to work with Games Workshop of all companies (and that is no small thing) to make 3 Warhammer games after all, so I don't know how much this changes things now. Of course I'm just speculating here.
But in any event, I hope to get a LOTR TW game some day, with mod support it could turn up to be legendary.

[twc01]

I'm sure CA knows for a good long while how popular of a game a Middle Earth TW would be, and it'd bring a hell of a lot of new fan base also. I don't know how difficult it was before to get the rights to make a LOTR game or if they ever tried.
CA managed to get to work with Games Workshop of all companies (and that is no small thing) to make 3 Warhammer games after all, so I don't know how much this changes things now. Of course I'm just speculating here.
But in any event, I hope to get a LOTR TW game some day, with mod support it could turn up to be legendary.

Good point, and just one more warhammer to go. I am very bias but with mod support this could be the best ever tw, in sales and enjoyment.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Not my first choice in fantasy canon, but not the last for me either, and I have a far higher regard for pure Tolkien than I do for Warhammer lore. I would be intrigued by the concept. Might even pick it up, after release of course.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think the system the Total War series developed is very much suited for the fantasy game (and not for a history game). It's current mechanics would fit into the Tokien's universe very well, as twc01 described.
For the moment, the TATW is the best mod for this universe, with FATW coming second, due to the outdated machine, it's graphically much inferior. It's sad that the Simarilion mod for M2TW failed...

[twc01]

I think the system the Total War series developed is very much suited for the fantasy game (and not for a history game). It's current mechanics would fit into the Tokien's universe very well, as twc01 described.
For the moment, the TATW is the best mod for this universe, with FATW coming second, due to the outdated machine, it's graphically much inferior. It's sad that the Simarilion mod for M2TW failed...

Sadly i agree that tw no longer does good history games. The last game i purchased was empire. They fit fantasy much better. The only fantasy i like is lotr.

[twc01]

Here is their contact info, send an email tell them we want lotr.


https://www.creative-assembly.com/contact

[♔atthias♔]

I think the system the Total War series developed is very much suited for the fantasy game (and not for a history game). It's current mechanics would fit into the Tokien's universe very well, as twc01 described.
For the moment, the TATW is the best mod for this universe, with FATW coming second, due to the outdated machine, it's graphically much inferior. It's sad that the Simarilion mod for M2TW failed...

nope but since it is an one man team who prefers to work rather than to preview it may seem so yes
here is the lastest one http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15495978

[saxdude]

Not sure I'd like or care for that, and I loved WHII.

[twc01]

Exspansions and DLC could be done on the first and second ages

[Daruwind]

A few setbacks with Tolkien universe.

1) Each age is like little diminishing of previous one. Slow transition from world creation, gods, great armies to more realistic world at the very end. In First Age we have enemy as Morgoth, whole elven Armies, Dragons, Balrogs, Host of Valinor Army... Third Age we have enemy as Sauron, one sleeping Dragon, one hiding Balrog, battles are way smaller. So making expansions into first+second age is actually like making bigger and bigger campaigns..

2) There is big difference between universe/lore created with games/gaming system in mind (Warhammer, Warcraft,...) and universe based on books (Tolkien, Game of Thrones, Sapkowsky...) Second type is not inherently focusing on overall balance. Abilities are not distributed evenly, armies are not balanced, because these things are not important for story. For example GoT, rich story,many characters yet combat is featuring almost no variety in terms of monsters (few giants, mammoths, few dragons), some undeads, almost none spellcasters. Majority of factions is based on humans with just Dothraki focusing more on cavalry. Sapkowsky, while very rich enviroment with loth of monsters and uber warriors and spellcasters, TW would be mostly about human armies due to monsters keeping far from people...Back to Tolkien. While story and lore is superb and it is base for many other works, in comparison with Warhammer it is actually pretty bleak. Warhammer is like todays top evolution of fantasy. Many different races, factions, great variety of units, useful magic system with many spells, magic artifacts, items, gods.... I like Tolkien work, have all books but it takes a lot to capture the feeling and having interesting game with what lore is offering. I´m just warning that Tolkien TW is not sure auto mega hit as some would think...

3) There will be probably a lot titles going off in near future. Not sure how feasible it is to compete with all other studios in near future..

[twc01]

A few setbacks with Tolkien universe.

1) Each age is like little diminishing of previous one. Slow transition from world creation, gods, great armies to more realistic world at the very end. In First Age we have enemy as Morgoth, whole elven Armies, Dragons, Balrogs, Host of Valinor Army... Third Age we have enemy as Sauron, one sleeping Dragon, one hiding Balrog, battles are way smaller. So making expansions into first+second age is actually like making bigger and bigger campaigns..

2) There is big difference between universe/lore created with games/gaming system in mind (Warhammer, Warcraft,...) and universe based on books (Tolkien, Game of Thrones, Sapkowsky...) Second type is not inherently focusing on overall balance. Abilities are not distributed evenly, armies are not balanced, because these things are not important for story. For example GoT, rich story,many characters yet combat is featuring almost no variety in terms of monsters (few giants, mammoths, few dragons), some undeads, almost none spellcasters. Majority of factions is based on humans with just Dothraki focusing more on cavalry. Sapkowsky, while very rich enviroment with loth of monsters and uber warriors and spellcasters, TW would be mostly about human armies due to monsters keeping far from people...Back to Tolkien. While story and lore is superb and it is base for many other works, in comparison with Warhammer it is actually pretty bleak. Warhammer is like todays top evolution of fantasy. Many different races, factions, great variety of units, useful magic system with many spells, magic artifacts, items, gods.... I like Tolkien work, have all books but it takes a lot to capture the feeling and having interesting game with what lore is offering. I´m just warning that Tolkien TW is not sure auto mega hit as some would think...

3) There will be probably a lot titles going off in near future. Not sure how feasible it is to compete with all other studios in near future..

1] I agree in some respects but also disagree. In fact I am currentley putting something together that argues against this. But even if true. Are you saying it would be a downfall to have the first game [assumed set in the popular third age] be the lesser game while the other ages improve on it? this sounds like a good thing. Get all the lotr fans to buy the first, than expand and make it bigger, better with new games or expansion on the first two ages.


2] Not for sure what your are saying correct me if i am wrong. Balance issues. I think balancing in a lotr game [such as bfme] would come from cost of units, time to build, availability etc i dont see any balancing issue. You also see a problem with variety. As a reader of the books i cant understand that. it is hard to imagine a game with more variety in units and nations than a middle earth game. Just check out what some of the great mods have done and they have been limited by the med 2 engine.

3] ? so they should stop making the games than because they are scarred to compete? i say no, this is why they need a large fan base that lotr provides. reach the heavens dammit.

[Daruwind]

1) I´m not saying it won´t work. We have Shogun 2 and its campaign Rise of Samurai is about previous more simplified period of time when even warfare was more basic. (no firearms,guns). But DLC for first and second age would be actually more like completely new expansions. Campaign maps more larger, scale of conflict bigger. I will speak about unit variety later but now I will just mention different scale of power. Way way bigger. Like Morgoth vs Sauron vs Sauron spirit. At one side we have like Elves at their peak strength, battling some Balrogs and millions and millions of Orcs.

2) Tolkien is like groundwork,base for all modern fantasy. It is quality superb material. That´s not question. Just saying that from that is point, other authors had 50+ years to produce some evolution over this basis. For races, units, characters..Like in Tolkien while we have Elves vs Elves conflict, we have just one race of Elves. In others we have like Night Elves, Dark Elves. (yes, Tolkien has Sundering, all different clans/branches with the little nuances between but he never went into splitting High/Dark Elves/Wood Elves as in Warhammer. Tolkien made the basis but never pushed limits. I´m not saying it is good nor bad, just a fact ) We have not just Dwarves but even Chaos Dwarves, Undeads are proper factions as are usual Vampires...and not counting crazy races like Skaven.

Getting back to unit variety. People were/are able to produce a lot of additional material especially for these mods. But that is exactly what i´m talking about. It is not contradicting lore but it is not directly from books. Like you cannot show me army book for Noldor army or Lake town written by Tolkien. And i´m not sure he would do one even if he could. ;-) May be the best point would be Comparing Hobbits, book and film. How many aspects were added into films especially for Battle of five armies. Goats, Chariots, Ballistas, Ogres, Trolls...

3) You are completely right about reaching heavens or even stars! It is more likely I´m now sick with how Star Wars universe is being little ruined (Episodes 7+8+trailer for Han Solo..Rogue One was superb). The argument is more about not doing games for sack of doing just games. Because everybody can, that is not quite good reason to do it also....If they dare, then I hope for AAAA game quality. To put argument back to Tolkien/Warhammer. Warhammer gets three games, trilogy, three parts...whatever. And even with all DLCs and parts with all the the CA put into Wh1+2 I can still see some downfalls and missing some parts of lore,world,whatever like comparing now Beastmen to Norsca or Tomb Kings or just even comparing WH2 cora factions and their rituals to Wh1 core factions. We all have the perfect image in head how the game should be, what aspects must be in.....and even if i´m quite happy with CA and their Wh translation into games, one of best possible in history, still it is like coming little short of my expactaion which are unhealthy high....

[twc01]

1) I´m not saying it won´t work. We have Shogun 2 and its campaign Rise of Samurai is about previous more simplified period of time when even warfare was more basic. (no firearms,guns). But DLC for first and second age would be actually more like completely new expansions. Campaign maps more larger, scale of conflict bigger. I will speak about unit variety later but now I will just mention different scale of power. Way way bigger. Like Morgoth vs Sauron vs Sauron spirit. At one side we have like Elves at their peak strength, battling some Balrogs and millions and millions of Orcs.

2) Tolkien is like groundwork,base for all modern fantasy. It is quality superb material. That´s not question. Just saying that from that is point, other authors had 50+ years to produce some evolution over this basis. For races, units, characters..Like in Tolkien while we have Elves vs Elves conflict, we have just one race of Elves. In others we have like Night Elves, Dark Elves. (yes, Tolkien has Sundering, all different clans/branches with the little nuances between but he never went into splitting High/Dark Elves/Wood Elves as in Warhammer. Tolkien made the basis but never pushed limits. I´m not saying it is good nor bad, just a fact ) We have not just Dwarves but even Chaos Dwarves, Undeads are proper factions as are usual Vampires...and not counting crazy races like Skaven.

Getting back to unit variety. People were/are able to produce a lot of additional material especially for these mods. But that is exactly what i´m talking about. It is not contradicting lore but it is not directly from books. Like you cannot show me army book for Noldor army or Lake town written by Tolkien. And i´m not sure he would do one even if he could. ;-) May be the best point would be Comparing Hobbits, book and film. How many aspects were added into films especially for Battle of five armies. Goats, Chariots, Ballistas, Ogres, Trolls...

3) You are completely right about reaching heavens or even stars! It is more likely I´m now sick with how Star Wars universe is being little ruined (Episodes 7+8+trailer for Han Solo..Rogue One was superb). The argument is more about not doing games for sack of doing just games. Because everybody can, that is not quite good reason to do it also....If they dare, then I hope for AAAA game quality. To put argument back to Tolkien/Warhammer. Warhammer gets three games, trilogy, three parts...whatever. And even with all DLCs and parts with all the the CA put into Wh1+2 I can still see some downfalls and missing some parts of lore,world,whatever like comparing now Beastmen to Norsca or Tomb Kings or just even comparing WH2 cora factions and their rituals to Wh1 core factions. We all have the perfect image in head how the game should be, what aspects must be in.....and even if i´m quite happy with CA and their Wh translation into games, one of best possible in history, still it is like coming little short of my expactaion which are unhealthy high....

1] ok i agree, the first ages would better fit as expansions or even whole new games rather than dlc. However dlc [i hate never buy] can be done as well. I am unsure where the "millions of orcs" come from but not really important.

2] There is more variety in LOTR than in any total war game ever made save perhaps warhammer. If you look at the third age mod [ could be sub mod also hindered by med 2] you will find 26 factions, more than enough for a tw game. Elves have diversity maybe not as much as you like with lothlorien, rivendall, the wood elves in mirkwood, and the elves of godolin. While the elves might not be drastically different, playing each faction is. Dwarves have 2 separate factions but yes similar. However there is much more to middle earth than these. As a whole the variety is a big sell in my opinion.

I disagree, there is allot mentioned in the books [and movies, movies also left out units] about weapons and creatures/units. It takes work but people have done so. I agree the hobbit movies added some weird stuff, i say leave that out. In fact a reason I stopped playing those mods is because of the engine, they could not include so many vital "units" vital imo to middle earth lore.


3] ok.

[athanaric]

Daruwind, the thing is that Middle-earth has some things that Warhammer and other fantasy settings don't have, and that is atmosphere and a solid fundament on which you can build a complex and intriguing game or TV series that actually looks like something you might want to live in.
This is mostly because it has professionally designed artificial languages and historiography, unlike the blatantly derivative, ass-pull versions you'll see in Warhammer, Warcraft, or Star Wars.

Secondly, the Middle-earth setting is more complex and nuanced than most people (who remember the supposedly Tolkien-based steretypes instead of the actual source material) think, and nowhere is this more evident than in the Fourth Age setting.

Thirdly, while it is true that more thought could have been given by Tolkien to strategic details and concrete descriptions of equipment and military organization, there is, again, more to be gleaned from the sources than people think. Particularly regarding Elves and Dúnedain. Let me give you an example:
Canonically, Elves in LotR and the Silmarillion are described using the following weapons: spear, bow, sword, dagger, AXE, MACE, and some kind of javelin. The axe is actually kind of the signature weapon of the Sindar. Yet the depiction of Tolkienesque Elves in popular culture has been Flanderized to a point where they use bows in every situation. That's not the author's fault.

As to fleshing out the rest of Middle-earth, that's up to the game designers.

[Daruwind]

Athanatir, you said it well. I can sum my fears as ....atmosphere is probably the hardest thing to get right in a game. And it is different for each person,a little at least. But it could be done, i can easily name Witcher 3 or Battle for Middle-Earth (maybe little too optimistic memory )

And you are again right that Tolkien while keeping a lot things to imagination said a lot information. It certainly allows for many aspects to be expanded....but here comes the devil. It can easily cross the line for some like in case of film Hobbit and Battles of 5 Armies.

Fair enough, I admit I fearthe failure as Tolkien is one my most beloved Universes (damn Disney Star wars ). But you guys made fair points. And if somebody managed to produce Witcher 3 with such great atmosphere, Tolkien could be done probably too!

[twc01]

I found the perfect book published last year on our topic related to Tolkien supposed vague battles and weapons. ordering it, I will let you guys know how it goes.

The Battles of Tolkien

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1626868530/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

[twc01]

contact Games Workshop let them know you want the game to happen.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Contact-Us

[twc01]

Would CA need anything as far as rights to make one based on the books alone?

[Daruwind]

Of course. Without Christopher it will be easier to negotiate the deal to get rights for Silmarillion for example, but probably much bigger fishes like Warner Bros, Amazon... will try to get them and they would probably try to get time exclusive rights maybe even for games.....like being only ones with right for ten years or something. Look at EA and Star Wars right for video games from Disney. This is out the league for CA maybe even SEGA..Games are growing industry, it is naive to think such big company will miss such opportunity to cash it. :-)

Another thing is, if you would like any connection to films from Jackson. LOTR is well known but Aragorn as Vigo, Legolas as Orlando....that would be easy sellings...