Pike & Shot (crossbows) Warfare in TW 3K

[Intranetusa]

Historically, an early version/prototype of Pike and Shot warfare (with crossbows instead of guns) was very common in the Chinese kingdoms throughout this 3K timeperiod. The armies of this era used pikes and up to 18 foot halberd-like pike-polearms combined with embedded crossbowmen and rotating crossbow volley fire formations. It would be similar to the Renaissance era European armies that used pikes + crossbows before transitioning to firearms.

If they don't have something similar to Pike and Shot warfare in this 3K game then many of us historical TW players will be very disappointed.

Crossbow rotating volley firing line gif:




Pike points & Pike shaft joinders/couplers:

:


Pikes & halberds images:











More Pikes & halberds images:

https://imgur.com/a/ErjG5

https://imgur.com/a/3WO5u

---

Sources:
"Crossbows remained one of the major weapons in Song times. In the eleventh century, Shen Gua argued that the crossbow is to the Chinese what the horse was to the Khitan -- the asset that gave them their advantage. In field battles against foreign cavalry, the Chinese infantry would have a row of pikemen with shields, rows of archers, and a row of crossbowmen. When the cavalry approached, the crossbowmen would shoot first above the crouching pikemen and bowmen. The pikemen and archers would shield the slower-firing crossbowmen, who, however, could inflict more damage."
https://depts.washington.edu/chinaci...h/crossbow.htm
https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/index.htm

The historian here, Patricia Buckley Ebrey, mostly specializes in Song Dynasty history, but the tactics are applicable to earlier eras as well. One of the videos below or another article discussing mentioned similar tactics dating back to the Warring States era.

"The Qin also employed long spears (more akin to a pike) in formations similar to Swiss pikemen in order to ward off cavalry. The Han Empire would use similar tactics as its Qin predecessors. Halbers, polearms, and dagger axes were also common weapons during this time."

https://books.google.com/books?id=tk...men%22&f=false

"Finally, the Qin and Han Dynasties also developed crossbow shooting lines, with alternating rows of crossbowmen shooting and reloading in a manner similar to a musket firing line."
https://books.google.com/books?id=tk...men%22&f=false

The "Terra Cotta Warriors" documentary with descriptions of pike warfare:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/chin...l-episode/844/

https://books.google.com/books? id=pYkvDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=qin+pike+crossbow&source=bl&ots=Ys4KB-9eZk&sig=BHoo07i5ztYnA-6igYJqIjnxsVY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihiYyqvOLXAhXRRt8KHY5mB6c4ChDoAQhHMAY#v=snippet&q=pike%20&f=false

In this documentary, there is a discussion at 1:05:30 about the 22 foot pikes used by the Qin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=ctoDUdpRwzM


"Around this time, the accuracy of crossbows was improved by the use of the world's first grid sights for aiming..." [Ancient Inventions -By Peter J. James, Nick Thorpe, I. J. Thorpe]

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vm...0sight&f=false

"(...a grid or crosswire sights) are set up on the frame....can mark his target, whether high or low, to the right or to the left." and "...other Han marksmen used cross-wire grid sights is well asured from other evidence..." [Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 3, Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and the Earth... -By Joseph Needham]

https://books.google.com/books?id=jf...0sight&f=false

Ideas of Qin's Army formations from Terra Cotta Warriors: The red squares and black dots are arrows/triggers from bows and crossbows - there are some melee infantry weapons dispersed among these ranged troops. They are mostly in the front and sides but there is also a line of crossbowmen behind a line of spears/lances/halberds/pikes and behind chariots. Note: Apparently more than 90% of the weapons of the Terra Cotta soldiers were looted (as they found 8000+ soldiers but only ~500 weapons) so it may not be a complete picture.

http://scalar.usc.edu/works/terracotta-army/weaponry

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/att...strategy_1.htm

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Excuse me from this "We".

Shot has always bored me in total war. Pikes have always been meh to me in total war. Meh + meh = meh, regardless of my other views on the context the suggestion is based in.

[musketer]

Excuse me from this "We".

Shot has always bored me in total war. Pikes have always been meh to me in total war. Meh + meh = meh, regardless of my other views on the context the suggestion is based in.

This is because in empire tw generally the behavior of musketeers and pikemen is very poorly made, clumsy, illogical. If the CA finally moved to a new engine, or thoroughly remade the old one, there is a chance that new Pike and shot era total war game will me created, where the battles will be more chaotic (less stiff and clunky), more natural in general, if you know what I mean.

[Intranetusa]

Excuse me from this "We".

Shot has always bored me in total war. Pikes have always been meh to me in total war. Meh + meh = meh, regardless of my other views on the context the suggestion is based in.

Ancient & medieval Chinese use of pike/halberd warfare is supposed to closer to Rennisance European pike/halberd warfare rather than ancient Macedonian use of pike warfare. It's faster-paced with soldiers running into position, used far more aggressively/offensively with massed firepower directed at a focused spot, and apparently had pike "charges" too. The ancient & medieval Chinese & Renaissance European pikes + embedded ranged troops were able to function more independently as a stand alone unit.

That should be more interesting than the "relatively" more defensive and slower paced Macedonian pikes that had to rely on other units for hammer and anvil tactics.

[Roma_Victrix]

Excuse me from this "We".

Shot has always bored me in total war. Pikes have always been meh to me in total war. Meh + meh = meh, regardless of my other views on the context the suggestion is based in.

Perhaps it sucks in later titles, but pike-and-shot in Medieval II and obviously the glorious mods for that game (Stainless Steel, SSHIP, Italian Wars, 1648, etc.) have some very fun mechanics in regards to Renaissance-era pike-and-shot. It can even be achieved with late medieval pike militia and primitive hand gunners, although the latter lack the range of crossbowmen. That's what would make the new Three Kingdoms: Total War game interesting, if they allow for this tactic to be used effectively. It's all the more delicious considering how it's China in the 3rd century AD. I wonder, though, did the Chinese ever have a version of pike-and-shot in the much-later Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 AD), with actual gunpowder weaponry of course? They had primitive touch-hole hand cannons during the late Song, Yuan, and early Ming dynasties, and later on had matchlock arquebusiers thanks to European contact in the 16th century. They certainly faced a great amount of matchlock-wielding Japanese riflemen in the 1590s during the Imjin War and Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Joseon Korea (although the Koreans and Chinese had far better artillery, given how their cannons had much greater range).

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

In response to the three posts above;

Still mixed - yes, outside of the warscape engine, I'd be more interested in seeing the idea come to fruition just for the sake of people that like the concept, but as a concept of war I am also largely uninterested in gunpowder and even pikes to an extent. My own issue as a less than diverse player in regards to themes, but something I should note.

[Intranetusa]

In response to the three posts above;

Still mixed - yes, outside of the warscape engine, I'd be more interested in seeing the idea come to fruition just for the sake of people that like the concept, but as a concept of war I am also largely uninterested in gunpowder and even pikes to an extent. My own issue as a less than diverse player in regards to themes, but something I should note.

If they ever want to do Pike and Shot, then implementing proto-P&S as pike and crossbow in 3K TW would be a good experiment before doing a full blown P&S game.
If they fail and nobody likes the pike and crossbow warfare in 3K, then the game could still be good since you still have plenty of non-P&S-esque units/warfare. But if they make a full blown P&S game straight off the bat and people hate that type of warfare, then there is no backup units/warfare to fall back on and game as a whole would've failed.

But yeh, I hope they are using a new engine or a heavily updated TW3 engine.

[saxdude]

I was gonna slap you had you not placed that parenthisis

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

If they ever want to do Pike and Shot, then implementing proto-P&S as pike and crossbow in 3K TW would be a good experiment before doing a full blown P&S game.
If they fail and nobody likes the pike and crossbow warfare in 3K, then the game could still be good since you still have plenty of non-P&S-esque units/warfare. But if they make a full blown P&S game straight off the bat and people hate that type of warfare, then there is no backup units/warfare to fall back on and game as a whole would've failed.

But yeh, I hope they are using a new engine or a heavily updated TW3 engine.

Testing it out in TW-3K would be fine, mostly because it doesn't affect me anyways, as I am entirely uninterested in the 3K concept. From there, it's a wait and see scenario.

[Intranetusa]

I was gonna slap you had you not placed that parenthisis

Testing it out in TW-3K would be fine, mostly because it doesn't affect me anyways, as I am entirely uninterested in the 3K concept. From there, it's a wait and see scenario.

You're the first person I've read so far to be uninterested in pike warfare, pike and shot warfare, gunpowder era warfare, and this 3K all at once.

Almost everyone else uninterested in 3K wanted something like gunpowder era Victorian TW or Pike and Shot TW.

[ptoss1]

You're the first person I've read so far to be uninterested in pike warfare, pike and shot warfare, gunpowder era warfare, and this 3K all at once.

Almost everyone else uninterested in 3K wanted something like gunpowder era Victorian TW or Pike and Shot TW.

Pike and shot is a non-subject.

Pike and shot is just mixed units in formation. Since TW never did formations that well and doesn't have mixed units, there's no reason to suspect it would be any different for future TWs.

A "pike and shot" game would just be another gunpowder TW with more melee infantry. Nothing interesting about it whatsoever unless TW substantially changes how combat works right now.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

You're the first person I've read so far to be uninterested in pike warfare, pike and shot warfare, gunpowder era warfare, and this 3K all at once.

Almost everyone else uninterested in 3K wanted something like gunpowder era Victorian TW or Pike and Shot TW.

You'll not find me claiming to represent the community.

I have very particular tastes :p You'd be far more likely to satisfy me with a Medieval 3 entry. Or a fantasy verse that I actually like.

[warrior6]

Pike and shot is a non-subject.

Pike and shot is just mixed units in formation. Since TW never did formations that well and doesn't have mixed units, there's no reason to suspect it would be any different for future TWs.

A "pike and shot" game would just be another gunpowder TW with more melee infantry. Nothing interesting about it whatsoever unless TW substantially changes how combat works right now.

I think a pike and shot Total war game would be very interesting simply because of the diverse cast of fighting styles in that era. While the Western Europeans may have had rigid Pike and shot formations, The Ottomans, the Safavids and the Mughals had evolved a sort of Horse and Shot warfare with masses of light cavalry and Arquebus infantry. It would be just cool as hell to see an army of Spanish Tercios and cavalry going up against Ottoman light cavalry backed up by Jannissaries and all manners of troops.



Tell me the above pic doesn't look cool as hell. Fully plated cavalry, sword and shield, canons, arquebus, polearms.

[PFElton]

Empire: Total War deserves a sequel/second chance.

[Intranetusa]

Empire: Total War deserves a sequel/second chance.

CA can't handle a game of that scope unless they divided it into multiple games/segments.

[Slaytaninc]

Pike & Shot warfare would require CA to make innovations in their formula. This is unlikely to happen unless there's a profit to be made. As a main line title perhaps CA would be more willing to take that chance.

What Pike & Shot needs is units that are basically formations of smaller units. To use a form which I'm more familiar with, you would need a pike unit with attached shot at the corners to represent early tercios. It would also require players to be stuck with units like this. Though it's a turn-based game, take a look at Pike & Shot Campaigns. You have a multitude of infantry, cavalry, and artillery types like a Total War game would. However if you have an infantry unit that's say, an early tercio, you don't get to command the subunits, just the overall unit. I imagine a lot of players would rather customize their own formations because with the advantage of hindsight we know which forms were superior and there's no point in going with an inferior setup unless you're challenging yourself. One player might want to put all of his shot in front of the pike. It was rare that commanders would do that, and they didn't really have the time to make sure units functioned that way once the actual fighting was going on.

[Dumanthis]

I think Shogun II in a way came very close to something similar in balance and it was a really good Total War game in general.

Maybe not Empire II, but a 16th -17th century total war with only Europe to begin with (30 years war, Ottoman wars, Polish Commonwealth) combined with naval warfare of the age. CA already did a pretty good job with naval warfare in Empire/Napoleon and in Shogun II it was at least fun

Rock, paper, scissors with pikes, muskets and cav and to add in artilllery and forces that are in between such as roundshiers ann others would make a pretty solid base for logical and strategicly plausible game.

PS. This game would have to includen Sweden and Gustavus Adoplhus of course

[Intranetusa]

The new Tsao Tsao trailer that CA released today is a bit disappointing. THey seem to be basing this on pop media and semi-fantasy portrayals rather than going for the historically accurate approach. I didn't see a single crossbow or long pike in the trailer. I didn't see any of the historical shields for polearms either. Looks like we may not be getting pike and crossbow warfare...

[zoner16]

The new Tsao Tsao trailer that CA released today is a bit disappointing. THey seem to be basing this on pop media and semi-fantasy portrayals rather than going for the historically accurate approach. I didn't see a single crossbow or long pike in the trailer. I didn't see any of the historical shields for polearms either. Looks like we may not be getting pike and crossbow warfare...

Several soldiers with long Ji halberds can be seen in the camp at 0:18. So those kinds of troops are definitely in the game. Several more with standard length (3-4m) Qiang/Mao pikes/long spears can be seen in the background of the raid on the village that is seen from 0:37-0:41. Crossbow soldiers can be seen behind Cao Cao at 0:57, as can more Qiang/Mao troops. You can see more Ji troops in the foreground at 1:05.

You can see the standard Han dynasty notched shield at 0:54. Rattan round shields, which were common among peasants and auxiliary troops, are shown at 0:56. The tower shields for the shieldwall at 1:48 are interesting. They're a more formal design of the large shields that can be seen in figures from late Wei, Jin, and the Northern and Southern dynasties. Some creative liberties seem to have been taken, since we don't know the exact origins of that particular design, though its speculated that it was taken from the great shields of the peoples who inhabited Shu during the early Han. Since those troops formed a great part of Emperor Gaozu's army, the great shields probably came with them.

EDIT: Ah, the return of the really thick swords oddly transplanted out of the Warring States at 0:54, and then again 2:00, on a cavalry unit this time no less (they left their lances at home?). It's doubly weird this time since Cao Cao and Yuan Shao both have standard sized Jian.

[Intranetusa]

Thanks, I may have missed these when watching it in lower res. I'll go rewatch this in higher resolution.