Pike & Shot (crossbows) Warfare in TW 3K

[Roma_Victrix]

EDIT: Ah, the return of the really thick swords oddly transplanted out of the Warring States at 0:54, and then again 2:00, on a cavalry unit this time no less (they left their lances at home?). It's doubly weird this time since Cao Cao and Yuan Shao both have standard sized Jian.

Funny that there might be some anachronistic Warring States period weapons in the game, considering how the guandao wielded by Guan Yu belongs to the medieval Song Dynasty at the very earliest (i.e. 9th-10th centuries AD).

[zoner16]

Funny that there might be some anachronistic Warring States period weapons in the game, considering how the guandao wielded by Guan Yu belongs to the medieval Song Dynasty at the very earliest (i.e. 9th-10th centuries AD).

That one I understand because it's his traditional weapon. It's kinda like everyone making Excalibur a high medieval longsword. People recognize Guan Yu because of that weapon, just like with Zhang Fei and his serpent spear.

A bunch of the soldiers running around with swords from four hundred years prior is just weird, especially when Cao Cao an Yuan Shao have proper, contemporary swords.

[Intranetusa]

Several soldiers with long Ji halberds can be seen in the camp at 0:18. So those kinds of troops are definitely in the game. Several more with standard length (3-4m) Qiang/Mao pikes/long spears can be seen in the background of the raid on the village that is seen from 0:37-0:41. Crossbow soldiers can be seen behind Cao Cao at 0:57, as can more Qiang/Mao troops. You can see more Ji troops in the foreground at 1:05.

You can see the standard Han dynasty notched shield at 0:54. Rattan round shields, which were common among peasants and auxiliary troops, are shown at 0:56. The tower shields for the shieldwall at 1:48 are interesting. They're a more formal design of the large shields that can be seen in figures from late Wei, Jin, and the Northern and Southern dynasties. Some creative liberties seem to have been taken, since we don't know the exact origins of that particular design, though its speculated that it was taken from the great shields of the peoples who inhabited Shu during the early Han. Since those troops formed a great part of Emperor Gaozu's army, the great shields probably came with them.

EDIT: Ah, the return of the really thick swords oddly transplanted out of the Warring States at 0:54, and then again 2:00, on a cavalry unit this time no less (they left their lances at home?). It's doubly weird this time since Cao Cao and Yuan Shao both have standard sized Jian.

Apparently at 0:57, they're portraying crossbows as repeating crossbows of the "non-recurve" variety. Did those even exist outside of being used for basic civilian home defense? So far for that aspect, they're pretty much going with stereotypical pop culture rather than something resembling reality...

Hopefully we see some historically accurate standard and heavy crossbows and some recurved repeating/multishot crossbows.

[zoner16]

Apparently at 0:57, they're portraying crossbows as repeating crossbows of the "non-recurve" variety. Did those even exist outside of being used for basic civilian home defense? So far for that aspect, they're pretty much going with stereotypical pop culture rather than something resembling reality...

Hopefully we see some historically accurate standard and heavy crossbows and some recurved repeating/multishot crossbows.

Yes, there were plenty of non-recurve crossbows. Especially the smaller ones of the 180 pound variety, which were common among drafted troops and auxiliaries as they were cheap and could be easily arm drawn. The Zhuge repeating crossbow was non-recurve. Incidentally, the crossbows those men are carrying in the trailer look like these repeaters upon further inspection. You can see the magazine above the stock and they appear to be holding it in the standard ready position.

Medium and heavy crossbows above 300 pounds were probably almost all recurved, though these took longer to manufacture and weren't always viable for low quality troops. So we should see these at some point.

[captainkrunch]

I would be shocked if we didn't see regular crossbows. Though admittedly I am worried CA will make the repeater crossbows way too common/powerful in this game to try and get some AoE hype.

[Intranetusa]

Yes, there were plenty of non-recurve crossbows. Especially the smaller ones of the 180 pound variety, which were common among drafted troops and auxiliaries as they were cheap and could be easily arm drawn. The Zhuge repeating crossbow was non-recurve. Incidentally, the crossbows those men are carrying in the trailer look like these repeaters upon further inspection. You can see the magazine above the stock and they appear to be holding it in the standard ready position.

Medium and heavy crossbows above 300 pounds were probably almost all recurved, though these took longer to manufacture and weren't always viable for low quality troops. So we should see these at some point.

We have some pictures of Warring States era repeating crossbows that shows they were recurve since that timeframe. So if Zhuge Liang's version is not recurve (and thus much weaker), then he must have really cheaped out on the parts or wanted quantity over quality for some reason...

[Intranetusa]

I would be shocked if we didn't see regular crossbows. Though admittedly I am worried CA will make the repeater crossbows way too common/powerful in this game to try and get some AoE hype.

This video seems like it was influenced by John Woo's Michael Bay film Red Cliff way too much. In that Red Cliff movie, you get a bunch of stereotypical non-recurve repeating crossbows but NOT A SINGLE regular crossbow.

Many things (armor, weapons, tactics, formatison, etc) are portrayed very badly in that movie...so hopefully CA isn't influenced by it too much.

[Roma_Victrix]

This video seems like it was influenced by John Woo's Michael Bay film Red Cliff way too much. In that Red Cliff movie, you get a bunch of stereotypical non-recurve repeating crossbows but NOT A SINGLE regular crossbow.

Many things (armor, weapons, tactics, formatison, etc) are portrayed very badly in that movie...so hopefully CA isn't influenced by it too much.

Quotes from the Michael Bay film The Red Rock:

Irate German Chinese guy over the phone: "Sie haben meinen chariot gestohlen!"

Chinese Sean Connery: "I'm only borrowing your chariot."



Seriously, though, they better not screw up the Han crossbows. That's one of the few things I'm looking forward to, to be honest, given all this other silliness with the default Romance/fantasy mode versus the "Classical" mode where hero bodyguard units are still going to be ridiculously overpowered and hence unrealistic (killing 100 soldiers in half a minute after charging).

[zoner16]

We have some pictures of Warring States era repeating crossbows that shows they were recurve since that timeframe. So if Zhuge Liang's version is not recurve (and thus much weaker), then he must have really cheaped out on the parts or wanted quantity over quality for some reason...

Do you have any of these pictures? I just realized I've actually never seen a recurve repeater, either in illustration, antique, or reproduction, from the Warring States or Han.

Also, just to dispel some accidental misconceptions. The Zhugenu is called so because he was mistakenly attributed as its inventor for a very long time. The Zhugenu and Chukonu are the same weapon, essentially. I just like calling it the Zhugenu.

[Ngazi]

Zhugenu and Chokonu are just two romanizations of the same word.

[Intranetusa]

Do you have any of these pictures? I just realized I've actually never seen a recurve repeater, either in illustration, antique, or reproduction, from the Warring States or Han.

Here are pictures of recurved repeating crossbows (Warring States era):









Ming Dynasty era recurved repeating crossbow:

[zoner16]

Here are pictures of recurved repeating crossbows (Warring States era):

These are not recurve crossbows. That part on the bottom is a grip. The reconstruction in the middle picture on the right is showing that it is not. Of all states, Chu would be the least likely to make repeating crossbows recurve, given their geography (though I guess Yue might've been even less likely if anyone cared about them).

Ming Dynasty era recurved repeating crossbow:

This is more interesting. It makes sense that it would be from the Ming navy though. It was probably a later invention to deal with pirates in the northeast.

[Intranetusa]

These are not recurve crossbows. That part on the bottom is a grip. The reconstruction in the middle picture on the right is showing that it is not. Of all states, Chu would be the least likely to make repeating crossbows recurve, given their geography (though I guess Yue might've been even less likely if anyone cared about them).
This is more interesting. It makes sense that it would be from the Ming navy though. It was probably a later invention to deal with pirates in the northeast.

Whoops...you are correct. I may have confused later medieval era recurved repeating crossbows for ancient era ones.