Mostly About Mytilene

[Badnercalabrese]

I had to laugh here...Thraike is very hit or miss. Their royal cav are indeed devastating. The first big battle I played was attacking their little town that had a stack... With hoplites blocking the streets and my skirmishers behind...it was devastating.

It made me over confident and I learned some harsh lessons when fighting in open ground. I think I had a similar experience as they really ripped my light cav apart along with all my skirmishers.

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[Geffalrus]

Yeah, it's good. A nice change of pace from how Greeks tend to fight. And very interesting too. Both seem quite capable on the battlefield, just in very different ways.

I need to make sure I have my 8 unique Hippeus units properly deployed in my empire. Either focus them near Attica where they can be replenished, or accept that I will burn through those 8 units and have to rely on expensive Reserves. I might focus my Hippeus on Attica/Euboea, delete the Prodromoi there, and then rebuild them in Aetolia, Thrace, and Olynthus.

[Geffalrus]

You know what, that Spartan stack near Naupaktos is going to be waaaaaaay easier to deal with now that I have conquered Thermon. Still feels vaguely like cheating, though. Had I not known about the danger of the Spartan stack + Aetolians ahead of time, I would not be in this good a position. Oh well. I still don't have a perfect plan for dealing with Mytilene (and I refuse to ship an army there well ahead of time because that seems scummy), but at least this time around, I have my military forces in a much better position. Olynthus succumbed much easier. The Thracians are dead. My armies and fleets are bigger.

Of course, my diplomatic situation is right in the toilet. My larger military and somewhat more aggressive moves have resulted in a lot of red on the diplomacy map. Be interesting to see if that balances out my military advantages by increasing the number of enemies taking a swing at me.

Random unit observations:

Aetolian Slingers - Are they faster than most other units, or am I only seeing it when they are under the influence of the general's speed boost? I swear they can outrun my cavalry on open ground.

Thracian Rhompaiamen - Finally noticed that I can recruit 2 of them in Abdira province. Excited to try them out.

Thetes Hoplites (Athenian Poor/Light Hoplites) - Initially a cheap, but not impressive unit. Unreliable in the main battle line when facing Theban and Spartan infantry way outside its weight class. However, I'm starting to better appreciate the unit in a more aggressive role when paired with skirmishers. The Thetes hoplite seems a bit speedier than the heavier hoplites, allowing it to close the distance and pin wandering AI hoplites. The skirmishers can then run around to deploy missiles in the enemy weak spots. When done right, the Thetes don't have to punch up against better units for too long. Plus, once you eliminate those overextended hoplites, the Thetes can group up to tackle other hoplites more directly. Flanking is one way, but even using Othismos against a Medium hoplite can be fairly effective. Going forward, I might remove them from my mainline where they get murdered, and let them run around with psiloi and prodromoi. The Zeugites and heavies can look after themselves with their better stats and defensive abilities (square and brace). All they really need to do is hold the line while the Toxotoi pick off enemy psiloi from behind the hoplite wall.

Overall, I'm going to just reiterate how much I enjoy the combat in this mod. Speed can be the most important factor sometimes (movement speed). Since there are few to no super shock units (super heavy cav, elephants, falxmen) or Vanilla-style OP melee units that can bust through a line by themselves, you have to do some work to actually pick off enemy units. I'm slowly getting better at using Othismos to break enemy infantry frontally. Usually I have too few hoplites to make it feasible, but I'm slowly getting better at massing my infantry in one place while distracting the enemy in another. Not ground breaking tactics, but for some reason, the execution seems to work better here.

[Badnercalabrese]

Don't feel too bad about Naupaktos. The reality is there was a decent garrison there. Mostly Messenian hoplites and Athenian navy.

Phormeo won one of the most epic victories there against the Pelloponnesians!

Your observations demonstrate a keen eye.
The best advice is, when you can recruit some unique units like Aetolian peltasts...It is a good idea, they will be at least slightly better than your regular peltasts.

Thetes hoplites are best on your far flank.
Traditional Greek tactics was your best and heaviest infantry had the place of honour on the left flank. This is good for your general or especially Logades if available. If you have not noticed despite how heavy they are - they are very fast.

While Thetes are essential up north in the Kalkides, I generally do not take them in my main armies. I just love the look of my med/heavy hoplites. That said, having a unit or two on the right flank to outmaneuver the enemy with peltasts is a great plan and will often be the turning point in a battle.

Generally my land battle tactics are medium and heavy hoplites, 2-4 units of cav and about 4-6 archers/slingers.

My line is in "issus" mode to keep them together better.
Skirmishers are behind.
My cav is used to remove enemy cavalry first but then its main job is remove skirmishers and routing units. You wont see me charging cav in the line unless a unit is wavering.
I always try to outflank the enemy with my hoplites and some skirmishers when/if fhe chance arises.

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[Badnercalabrese]

Don't feel too bad about Naupaktos. The reality is there was a decent garrison there. Mostly Messenian hoplites and Athenian navy.

Phormeo won one of the most epic victories there against the Pelloponnesians!

Your observations demonstrate a keen eye.
The best advice is, when you can recruit some unique units like Aetolian peltasts...It is a good idea, they will be at least slightly better than your regular peltasts.

Thetes hoplites are best on your far flank.
Traditional Greek tactics was your best and heaviest infantry had the place of honour on the left flank. This is good for your general or especially Logades if available. If you have not noticed despite how heavy they are - they are very fast.

While Thetes are essential up north in the Kalkides, I generally do not take them in my main armies. I just love the look of my med/heavy hoplites. That said, having a unit or two on the right flank to outmaneuver the enemy with peltasts is a great plan and will often be the turning point in a battle.

Generally my land battle tactics are medium and heavy hoplites, 2-4 units of cav and about 4-6 archers/slingers.

My line is in "issus" mode to keep them together better.
Skirmishers are behind.
My cav is used to remove enemy cavalry first but then its main job is remove skirmishers and routing units. You wont see me charging cav in the line unless a unit is wavering.
I always try to outflank the enemy with my hoplites and some skirmishers when/if fhe chance arises.

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Also dont be two excited about the thracian cav...they are a light skirmish cav. Not so much better than your regular lights (if at all) ...but still two caps of light cav is 2 caps of light cav.

Just FYI, between Thessalia and Makedon. I believe that yields 6 units of heavy cavalry.

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[Geffalrus]

Considering the tight quarters of the Thebes-Attica area, I'm starting to really value the Pathfinder general skill (night attack, basically). The ability to single out enemy stacks without having to fight massive reinforcements is a real help when trying to keep the Theban army at a manageable level. In my previous campaign, that would have made the battle vs. Sparta and Aetolia SOOOOO much easier.

Still having trouble with Mytilene, I'm afraid. They sailed out 11 ships plus a 20 stack army, plus the full garrison, against my 20 stack fleet. I did serious damage, killing more than I lost, but I couldn't actually win the thing. It's very hard to breach a death ball of transports packed with slingers. A#1 thing I hate about Rome 2's mechanics. And since this was turn 2 on the high seas, the wear and tear put some penalties on my usually speedy Athenian ships. I have a second fleet blockading the port now, but there's still a big army and garrison protecting the place. And the only way I'm getting in is with an army, which takes FOREVER to get there from any reasonable port. At least any reasonable location a normal player would have their army not intentionally waiting for the Mytilene rebellion.

[Badnercalabrese]

Considering the tight quarters of the Thebes-Attica area, I'm starting to really value the Pathfinder general skill (night attack, basically). The ability to single out enemy stacks without having to fight massive reinforcements is a real help when trying to keep the Theban army at a manageable level. In my previous campaign, that would have made the battle vs. Sparta and Aetolia SOOOOO much easier.

Still having trouble with Mytilene, I'm afraid. They sailed out 11 ships plus a 20 stack army, plus the full garrison, against my 20 stack fleet. I did serious damage, killing more than I lost, but I couldn't actually win the thing. It's very hard to breach a death ball of transports packed with slingers. A#1 thing I hate about Rome 2's mechanics. And since this was turn 2 on the high seas, the wear and tear put some penalties on my usually speedy Athenian ships. I have a second fleet blockading the port now, but there's still a big army and garrison protecting the place. And the only way I'm getting in is with an army, which takes FOREVER to get there from any reasonable port. At least any reasonable location a normal player would have their army not intentionally waiting for the Mytilene rebellion.

That is a great point about night battles...I dont think I ever took advantage of that. I will definitely look to do that when I can. When I am fighting near a walled city though - I want to bring out the garrison so I can destroy them. I hate siege battles in this. Hoplites climbing walls just looks weird to me. I look to wreck a garrison to the point where it should be an auto resolve.

Warning...dont blockade! Just raid right outside. At least for me the armies never attacked me! Turns went by and before I knew it - the rebellion spread.

I even tried raiding with two stacks despite the odds still being heavily against me in auto resolve...I would only get attacked with 1 stack.

If you lost your stack maybe send your next army to raid ASAP.

With naval tactics try to encircle. I like to keep all my ships in 1 line and double team the enemy with ramming. Dont get caught in the center.

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[Geffalrus]

Yes, sometimes you definitely want the garrison to come out and fight. It's nice to have the option to choose one or the other.

My issue with Mytilene is trying to replicate the historical Athenian solution, as the devs no doubt intend. So that involves Step 1: blockading. Step 2: shipping in a land army to lay siege. Step 3: the Mytilenes surrender. It's Step 2 that is the hardest for me to replicate due to the slow speed of armies moving on water. Even using the Row Fast stance. To match up with history, the player should be able to sail an army from somewhere and have it get there at least in time to lay siege.

[Geffalrus]

Finally took Mytilene on the Summer of 427 (basically exactly when it happened in history). However, my army, while in boats offshore, took absolutely no part in the assault. The previous turn, the whole garrison and an army sailed out to attack my blockading fleet of 20 ships. My ships fought like warrior poets. They fought like Scottsmen. They actually destroyed 95% of the enemy force. But then a bug came along and rendered to enemy ships immobile - and - invincible. I had to sail away (guess I could have waited out the clock, but I hate that). Mytilene was left with 2 militia hoplites and 1 general.

So I sent in a second full fleet and autoresolved the harbor attack. I couldn't wait a single turn because Chios was going to rebel in the Fall.

Mytilene quest completed. However, I'm really not sure it's possible to complete the quest in a historical fashion - using an army to siege and/or starve it out. There's no way to get an army to Mytilene soon enough. And the historical record makes it clear that the Athenians dispatched two separate groups of Hoplites to the island (original force, plus 1,000 additional to complete the investment of the city). That's not really something the player can do as far as I can tell. I sailed an army from Ainos in Thrace on the turn Mytilene rebelled. Using double time, the army arrived in the summer of 427 in the waters outside the city, unable to lay siege or take part in the final battle.

Maybe sailing an army from Myrna (island south of Thrace) or Sestos (Hellespont) would be slightly closer. But it's unlikely those locations would have an army in the first place. There's no reason for an army to be on Myrna island. And Sestos is not really near the Thracian frontline, which is what your army in Thrace will be focused on. The point I'm trying to make is that the way the devs have the challenge set up (which is mostly fine) doesn't work well with how army mechanics in the mod work. And that seems to me to make it impossible for the player to recreate the historical Athenian solution. It's feasible to use your navy to lure and kill the garrison. But that's not what happened historically. Naval action was one part, while a land siege force was another. To recreate history, the player needs to have some way to make use of an army on Mytilene within the time constraints inherent in the challenge.

Again, not trying to beat on the mod. I like it and it's great. Just giving some feedback. And if anyone knows something I don't, please let me know.

[Phalangitis]

I stated reading your epos guys with very much interest. I am half way through. For battle mechanics I have a small video in the same named thread that explains othismos deep phalanx etc. It a must see in my opinion.
You both have great talent describing the story. I feel immersed even though I have played the game a hundred times
+ rep
For badnercalabrese I need to short done more point around to be allowed to re- rep you.
Cheers. Will post again and keep an eye here

[Phalangitis]

For bettle mechanics the link is this and try the first video. The second is generally tactics and in theory
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lanation-Video

[Badnercalabrese]

For bettle mechanics the link is this and try the first video. The second is generally tactics and in theory
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lanation-Video

Thanks a lot! I know I skimmed through that page before but I was not paying enough attention or in the proper mindset to grasp it..This will give us some more tools to work with instead of guessing when to use those special stances.

In regards to sending a land army to Mytilene...Remember you are limited with 5 armies for some time. You will need them where they are unless you take your most northern army, destroy thraike and send to mytilene...by the time the notification comes though it will be too late. As you see you would need to send in advance which seems silly.
In real life, armies were much more mobile at sea. The Hellenika team flirted with the idea of increasing range but I think it would cause too many other problems. The AI would go insane making your defense a lot harder.

Just wait until the Calias peace ends and you will especially be relieved

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[Phalangitis]

Yes. If we were to increase sea range for land units ai would go rampage ravaging the game. What I just thought though is to give a naval movement boost for the Athenian player only and only for the duration of the Mytilene crisis. This would somehOw reflect the emergency mobilization of Athenian forces. Will try to find the time to check tonight and possibly implement it asap

[Badnercalabrese]

Yes. If we were to increase sea range for land units ai would go rampage ravaging the game. What I just thought though is to give a naval movement boost for the Athenian player only and only for the duration of the Mytilene crisis. This would somehOw reflect the emergency mobilization of Athenian forces. Will try to find the time to check tonight and possibly implement it asap

I would feel compelled to restart my Athens campaign if you could find a way to implement that. Simple but brilliant idea!



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[Phalangitis]

Okay today is a lazy day at work and I found the time to check the tables. In my work PC I have an older version of Hellenika's tables but I think they are accurate enough
So to do the above is doable of course but implementation needs a certain amount of time. Raw Modding time is not much but all these mechanics need extensive testing before applied in order to be bug free. So this could take some time.

What can be done easily and faster though is this. The notification for Korkyra and Mytilene rebellions is shown at turn 16. Mytilene goes to war at turn 18 and Korkyra situation evolves at turn 19. I can change the notification to show at turn 10. So the player has an 8 turn warning plus 5 turns for the spread of rebellion to Chios Plus 5 for Ionia. So a total of 13 turns for Chios and 18 for Ionia.
Land units can be mobilized to arrive on time and lay a siege while Athenian player can use Naval units for support plus protection of the port that the land unit sailed. Naval recruitment is fast and while on port naval units have 0 cost.
One should remember to heavily protect-support the land siege attack with multiple full stack navies. To adress the cost issue 1) increase taxes (Athens has a good initial income) 2) only protect the land unit expedition with one fleet and keep the rest of them docked close by in attack range. They will be used as supporting attackers only when the land unit arrives at the island.

Second solution is more fair because it does not give any extra effect bonus to the player, it just improoves the time of warning (which is also logical for the Athenian goverment that was full of spies..). PLayer has to bare the costs and plan ahead.
Thoughts?

[Geffalrus]

That's brilliant.

I was thinking about it this morning, and the second suggestion (increasing the warning time) was actually something that occurred to me as well. Sounds way simpler from a modding perspective.

Maybe the text could be something like - "Democratic elements in Mytilene warn Athens that the Oligarchic rulers of the city have designs on nearby Methymna. Methymna has requested military aid from Athens in the event that Mytilene marshals its forces and tries to seize the city. The Athenian assembly has agreed to allow a Strategos to be sent with an army to the island of Lesbos to resolve the dispute. Player Note: Historically, Athens was able to subdue the Mytilene Revolt quickly through a combined use of land and sea power. The player should embark an army as soon as possible in order for it to reach Mytilene within the historical time frame. Advanced warning is given to compensate for the slow move speed of armies at sea. If the player does not capture and -Occupy- Mytilene by the Summer of 427, Chios will feel encouraged to join the revolt. 5 Turns after Chios revolts, Ionia will join the rebellion if Mytilene is not occupied."

I really do think giving the player an earlier notice, combined with wording to make it clear that they should act decisively, will make it easier to replicate the historical resolution to the Mytilene situation. In Attica, the player should have sufficient excess armies to send across the Aegean. If they've done extra well, the Olynthus and Thrace situations might also be resolved by this time. Thrace in particular, becomes very quiet once you eliminate Thrace with Byzantion's help. Presumably war with Persia changes that, but that's not an early game problem. So the player should be able to send someone from Euboea, Thrace, or Olynthus to Mytilene within this new time frame.

Make no mistake, the large difference in move speed between navies and armies is very much appreciated. Armies attacking my fleets at sea is one of my pet peeves about Rome 2. The dreaded death ball of slinger transports is nicely mitigated by the fact that an embarked army is unlikely to catch a fleet at sea. This is a solid improvement to naval combat.

[Badnercalabrese]

That's brilliant.

I was thinking about it this morning, and the second suggestion (increasing the warning time) was actually something that occurred to me as well. Sounds way simpler from a modding perspective.

Maybe the text could be something like - "Democratic elements in Mytilene warn Athens that the Oligarchic rulers of the city have designs on nearby Methymna. Methymna has requested military aid from Athens in the event that Mytilene marshals its forces and tries to seize the city. The Athenian assembly has agreed to allow a Strategos to be sent with an army to the island of Lesbos to resolve the dispute. Player Note: Historically, Athens was able to subdue the Mytilene Revolt quickly through a combined use of land and sea power. The player should embark an army as soon as possible in order for it to reach Mytilene within the historical time frame. Advanced warning is given to compensate for the slow move speed of armies at sea. If the player does not capture and -Occupy- Mytilene by the Summer of 427, Chios will feel encouraged to join the revolt. 5 Turns after Chios revolts, Ionia will join the rebellion if Mytilene is not occupied."

I really do think giving the player an earlier notice, combined with wording to make it clear that they should act decisively, will make it easier to replicate the historical resolution to the Mytilene situation. In Attica, the player should have sufficient excess armies to send across the Aegean. If they've done extra well, the Olynthus and Thrace situations might also be resolved by this time. Thrace in particular, becomes very quiet once you eliminate Thrace with Byzantion's help. Presumably war with Persia changes that, but that's not an early game problem. So the player should be able to send someone from Euboea, Thrace, or Olynthus to Mytilene within this new time frame.

Make no mistake, the large difference in move speed between navies and armies is very much appreciated. Armies attacking my fleets at sea is one of my pet peeves about Rome 2. The dreaded death ball of slinger transports is nicely mitigated by the fact that an embarked army is unlikely to catch a fleet at sea. This is a solid improvement to naval combat.

Good point..
But do not forget that when you catch transports at sea -especially main factions with limited unit caps... This is easy picking. Yes the skirmishers are annoying but your fleets are superior at sea and two hits with a ram will often sink the entire unit. If you are at war with a faction and you see them transporting an army slowly...provided you have the funds- definitely sink it then get back to port. Your ships can replenish at any port.
You will gain at LEAST a decisive victory in the process...if you lose a couple ships - not a big concern.

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[Geffalrus]

Oh yeah, transports on open sea are not too problematic when you have a good fleet. It's mostly when I'm outnumbered by a solid margin (see port battles of 20 ships vs. 40+ transports) that trouble happens. A large number of slingers, combined with the jumble of trying to sink ships that are all bunched up together.........it often has led to my ships routing due to casualties. A full unit of slingers in a ship can produce a lot of ranged DPS, especially if you can't ram them due to how crammed everyone is together. I'm getting better at peeling off ships in that situation, but again, when it's 40+ ships, there's not a lot of open sea to maneuver.........

But yes, your fundamental point is correct, and another mark in the mod's favor.

[Phalangitis]

Ok deal.
Will copy paste the exact message. If you want to make any changes to it feel free to do so since English is not my native language. Keep in mind that this message is a warning both for Korkyra and Mytilene and it should not be very long. This size looks just fine by the way..
Cheers

[Geffalrus]

Let me go back through that and integrate Korkyra better. I also want to post more stuff about my Athenian Empire. Where does the time go..........