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Thread: Mostly About Mytilene

  1. #1
    Decanus
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    Default Mostly About Mytilene

    So, I know the Athenians squashed the rebellion pretty quickly.........but I'm not sure how easy it is for the player if they don't know it's coming well ahead of time. We're talking about a walled city that by that point can have a full stack standing guard. Not sure even my toughest fleet can crack that nut. Maybe if I had my best army nearby.........but the sailing time across the Aegean for an army is a lot of turns, and that's if I'm perfectly positioned in Attica and/or Euboea. Which I'm probably not because it took a full year to go from Athens to Naupaktos with my primary army to try and deal with the Aetolian scripted event.

    So first off, any suggestions for how to handle the Mytilene situation? I know that I should act fast, and I read up enough to know that Chios and Ionia are next if I don't solve the problem. Is that linked solely to capturing Mytilene? If I capture Mytilene after Chios rebels, will it surrender? Is the Ionian revolt stopped only by Mytilene's capture?

    Second - the sailing time of armies is so very slow. Which is good in many ways. But it does make responding to various situations rather difficult. Is this working as intended, or is there something I can do better (I'm still learning all the new mechanics of this mod).

    Third - Corcyra........is it enough for me to send a fleet to sit near them? Will that head off the problem? I don't want to lose them too as they're doing a great job dismantling the Corinthians in the western theatre.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Let's go back to the Aetolian Situation for a moment.

    The scripted Spartan Army finally arrived. Great! Glad I have the primary Athenian army camped in Naupaktos waiting for him. HOWEVER. There's a massive problem. The spawn location for that army is in reinforcement range of the Aetolian walled city AND the full stack Aetolian army camped inside. To complete the quest, I need to defeat a full Spartan army PLUS two full Aetolian armies. With my one full stack. That's utterly ridiculous. Why did that army have to spawn within reinforcement range of the city? If I defeat it and complete the quest, then the Aetolians are wide open anyway, making the enforced peace unnecessary as I can just waltz in. But that's only if I can win this battle against an army triple my size.

    I'm really enjoying the campaign, but this is pretty close to game breaking for me. It's completely invalidating the massive effort it took to even get in position for this event. I'd have been better off abandoning Naupaktos and diverting my might army to the East.

    Edit: Oh, and IT'S A RIVER BATTLE! So now I have to attack across a river against insane odds. Because, really why not at this point. Maybe throw in some machine guns and lightsabers while you're at it.........
    Last edited by Geffalrus; January 15, 2018 at 12:01 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Mate I am at work my reply might not be in as much depth as I would like.

    Mytilene. This was one of my hardest things to do. You need to master naval combat tactics against AI there is a great video on YT about Mytilene rebellion.

    Even after watching I still could not get it right. You need a full stack of navy (preferably mostly epivati) to raid right outside the walls.

    I made the mistake of wanting to ensure victory I had two stacks...very expensive, maintaining blockades or even raiding did not work.

    You need 1 full stack to raid and this will prompt the Mytillenians to attack you. You will be heavily outnumbered with a full stack of army and garrison but if you get good with naval combat - you can do it.
    This will allow you to occupy the city and crush rebellion.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    As far as Naupaktos goes...Just me but I found my best battles were with my garrison and a full naval stack -mostly epivati.

    Sparta will act different every time. Sometomes they attack themselves - you can win. Sometomes the aetoliand attack first which really hurts. Sometomes the Spartans just raid and attack some place else.

    I hate having infantry in naupaktos simply because they are hard to replenish and I hate losing them.

    If you have an army there I would suggest to keep it defensive unless a strange chance arises.

    I personally had better success leaving two full stacks in Attike and leaving the navy in charge of Naupaktos. With this mod though you cant expect the AI to make the same moves even when you restart from a saved game 1 turn aggo.

    Another hint - Save the game a lot [emoji6]

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    With Corcyra...
    Yes just a naval stack to observe and reinforce your allies. I find they usually handle it themselves and Ive never had to do much to stop the rebellion.

    Also ALWAYS keep a full naval stack at Samos

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  6. #6
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Thanks man, that is actually very helpful. Things have progressed a bit since then, so I'll try and sum it up. It's mostly been for the good, because this mod is really a wonder (if tough at times).

    Naupaktos: I decided to make a go of defeating the Spartan stack while it had help from allllllll the Aetolians. It was the most epic battle I've ever fought in Rome 2 or really any other TW game. No joke. I'll upload it sometime maybe. Suffice it to say, I managed to use the river to my advantage by quick crossing to wipe out isolated Spartan units, and then retreat (messily) back across the ford where my tired Logades, Pericles, and Heavy Hoplites made an epic stand while I ran my cavalry and light troops around to flank. It almost did not work. By all rights it really shouldn't have worked, but I had finally figured out the courier mechanic. Also, Rhodians are amazing at clearing out enemy light troops.

    Thermon was now open, but Aetolia was at peace, as promised. But I'm Athens, and my best allies seem set to abandon me no matter what (scripted events), so I broke the treaty and immediately attacked. Success. Combined that with a naval assault clearing the final Corinthian colony in Ambrakia province, and those objectives were complete.

    On a whim, I took Pylos and liberated it, creating Messenia. But........now I need to hold Pylos to cause a Messenia revolt in Messenia........hmmm. Shoot, I may have messed that one up.

    Mytilene: That's good advice about the navy. I'm trying to sail an army from Torone to get there. Chios just rebelled, so now I have 5 turns to take Mytilene to prevent Ionia from leaving as well. Correct? Chios I can handle no problem, I think. It's really the walled Mytilene that's the worry. I CANNOT allow Ionia to leave........that would really hurt my Aegean Empire.

    I'm trying to be patient, but I desperately want to sprint for Iphicratean Peltasts.

    Cavalry will become a problem as that big battle in Aetolia devastated two units of Hippeus and it's almost impossible to realistically walk them back to Attica to replenish. I'll be dipping into the cavalry reserves sooner rather than later.

    I think I might have finally figured out how to properly use Othismos and Deep Phalanx. I can't always rely on mercenary skirmishers to save my bacon.........though having access to Aetolian Peltasts is going to be PRETTY NICE. Might have to invade Makedon to see if that gives me AOR cavalry.........

  7. #7

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Thanks man, that is actually very helpful. Things have progressed a bit since then, so I'll try and sum it up. It's mostly been for the good, because this mod is really a wonder (if tough at times).

    Naupaktos: I decided to make a go of defeating the Spartan stack while it had help from allllllll the Aetolians. It was the most epic battle I've ever fought in Rome 2 or really any other TW game. No joke. I'll upload it sometime maybe. Suffice it to say, I managed to use the river to my advantage by quick crossing to wipe out isolated Spartan units, and then retreat (messily) back across the ford where my tired Logades, Pericles, and Heavy Hoplites made an epic stand while I ran my cavalry and light troops around to flank. It almost did not work. By all rights it really shouldn't have worked, but I had finally figured out the courier mechanic. Also, Rhodians are amazing at clearing out enemy light troops.

    Thermon was now open, but Aetolia was at peace, as promised. But I'm Athens, and my best allies seem set to abandon me no matter what (scripted events), so I broke the treaty and immediately attacked. Success. Combined that with a naval assault clearing the final Corinthian colony in Ambrakia province, and those objectives were complete.

    On a whim, I took Pylos and liberated it, creating Messenia. But........now I need to hold Pylos to cause a Messenia revolt in Messenia........hmmm. Shoot, I may have messed that one up.

    Mytilene: That's good advice about the navy. I'm trying to sail an army from Torone to get there. Chios just rebelled, so now I have 5 turns to take Mytilene to prevent Ionia from leaving as well. Correct? Chios I can handle no problem, I think. It's really the walled Mytilene that's the worry. I CANNOT allow Ionia to leave........that would really hurt my Aegean Empire.

    I'm trying to be patient, but I desperately want to sprint for Iphicratean Peltasts.

    Cavalry will become a problem as that big battle in Aetolia devastated two units of Hippeus and it's almost impossible to realistically walk them back to Attica to replenish. I'll be dipping into the cavalry reserves sooner rather than later.

    I think I might have finally figured out how to properly use Othismos and Deep Phalanx. I can't always rely on mercenary skirmishers to save my bacon.........though having access to Aetolian Peltasts is going to be PRETTY NICE. Might have to invade Makedon to see if that gives me AOR cavalry.........
    This was all a great read! Glad you made it through and sounds like your defense of Naupaktos was better than mine! I never was able to get the Aetolians to make peace. In fact the first campaign I ever succeeded with Athens I don't think I achieved any of the dynamic objectives except holding Samos.

    I am currently on my second attempt with Athens trying to play with more realism.
    What difficulty are you playing with?

    And if you do have a recording of that battle. Definitely get that on YT and send the link here.

    Please also explain how you are using Othismos and deep phalanx...I am not sure if I am still using it at the right times [emoji52]

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  8. #8
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Many Bothans died to secure the safety of Naupaktos. As in entire units of Zeugetai and Thetes hoplites, plus my Cretans, Prodromoi, and Thracians were all wiped out in the course of the battle. My unit of Logades routed from the river crossing melee scrum only to rally and dive into the later fight to save Pericles and his bodyguard at 25%. But yes, I will try and get that video up as a movie does better than words can.

    I stick to normal/normal. The game is not-unchallenging at normal, and I don't have the time to spend getting good enough to reliably deal with AI bonuses. Plus I get salty when I think the AI is cheating. XD

    I originally tried using othismos as an ability used by a single unit to give it a boost over the enemy. I don't think it actually did anything other than deactivate hoplite wall and squeeze the unit closer to the enemy. Then I tried stacking two units and using deep phalanx. That didn't really do much. Then I used othismos on the SECOND unit.......and then a green buff popped up on the unit in front. So I think unit #2 in a stack uses othismos to boost unit #1. I imagine unit #3 in the stack can then use deep phalanx to refresh the cooldown on unit #2's othismos. At some point, I want to pull a Theban and actually use that with my Logades to crush a Spartan hoplite. More trial and error awaits.........

    The courier and presence abilities definitely warrant more experimentation. The psiloi don't seem useful........until you notice that psiloi and slingers can theoretically refresh the courier ability (I think). Also, cavalry have some ability to increase unit speed when the general ability presence activates......I think? I'm still trying to figure it out while playing.

    Basically there's a lot of depth to this simple on the surface warfare. I really like it.

    Also the naval battles are fantastic (if you're Athens). Having speedy ships to ram enemies is absurdly fun and 100% how I prefer to fight in Rome 2. I'm slowly developing better naval tactics (Marine ships as the mainline to charge directly - 1st class speedy ships to flank or lure enemies). It took a bit for me to learn that once you have over 12 or so ships, you have enough to ensure you sink a good chunk of the enemy fleet (no matter the total size), allowing you to maintain local number superiority. Then you can kind of ram-snowball through the whole fleet, more or less.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Many Bothans died to secure the safety of Naupaktos. As in entire units of Zeugetai and Thetes hoplites, plus my Cretans, Prodromoi, and Thracians were all wiped out in the course of the battle. My unit of Logades routed from the river crossing melee scrum only to rally and dive into the later fight to save Pericles and his bodyguard at 25%. But yes, I will try and get that video up as a movie does better than words can.

    I stick to normal/normal. The game is not-unchallenging at normal, and I don't have the time to spend getting good enough to reliably deal with AI bonuses. Plus I get salty when I think the AI is cheating. XD

    I originally tried using othismos as an ability used by a single unit to give it a boost over the enemy. I don't think it actually did anything other than deactivate hoplite wall and squeeze the unit closer to the enemy. Then I tried stacking two units and using deep phalanx. That didn't really do much. Then I used othismos on the SECOND unit.......and then a green buff popped up on the unit in front. So I think unit #2 in a stack uses othismos to boost unit #1. I imagine unit #3 in the stack can then use deep phalanx to refresh the cooldown on unit #2's othismos. At some point, I want to pull a Theban and actually use that with my Logades to crush a Spartan hoplite. More trial and error awaits.........

    The courier and presence abilities definitely warrant more experimentation. The psiloi don't seem useful........until you notice that psiloi and slingers can theoretically refresh the courier ability (I think). Also, cavalry have some ability to increase unit speed when the general ability presence activates......I think? I'm still trying to figure it out while playing.

    Basically there's a lot of depth to this simple on the surface warfare. I really like it.

    Also the naval battles are fantastic (if you're Athens). Having speedy ships to ram enemies is absurdly fun and 100% how I prefer to fight in Rome 2. I'm slowly developing better naval tactics (Marine ships as the mainline to charge directly - 1st class speedy ships to flank or lure enemies). It took a bit for me to learn that once you have over 12 or so ships, you have enough to ensure you sink a good chunk of the enemy fleet (no matter the total size), allowing you to maintain local number superiority. Then you can kind of ram-snowball through the whole fleet, more or less.
    Very interesting...When Phalangitis reads this I am sure he will clear up our confusion with othismos and deep phalanx. Might need to check the manual again.

    For naval tactics...I find the best thing is to simply double team enemy ships at least 2 ships against each enemy and sink ships one by one. The key is to try your best not to get stuck in a mess of ships. Once your naval tech is upgraded enough you can probably go ship to ship combat.

    You dont need to justify normal difficulty. This mod is much harder and phal suggests medium-hard.
    I tried Athens at hard for a few turns and it was ugly.
    I played a great campaign with Argos in hard and it was bearable because of pure fortune.

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  10. #10
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Yes, the speed advantage of the Athenian ships is something I don't take enough advantage of. The AI likes blocky fleets that can theoretically absorb my initial ram-rush and then pile on with ranged fire or boarding while my ships are stationary post-ramming. When I'm smart, I use the 1st class ships to peel away sections of the enemy fleet to be defeated in detail. Basic military theory, but not always what I remember to do in the midst of things.

    I'm trying to be a bit cautious with my faction recruits, but on the other hand, each hoplite unit has a cap of 30 or more. So a certain amount of recklessness/choosing not to sail the army all the way back to Athens seems reasonable.

    In about 2 turns I should have a decent army landing on Mytilene combined with a fleet size 15 that already defeated a large force of transports. Hopefully that will do the trick in taking Mytilene. If necessary, I have two size 15 fleets in the Aegean that can help. The war in Hellas proper is going so well, I really need the Delian League to not fall apart on me.........

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Just be careful because you only have a few turns to destroy the rebellion before it spreads further. At least Chios will leave you and possibly the ionians. This will leave your key bases like Samos in danger. If you lose Samos - all your Eastern allies will leave! And that would be the end of the Delian League.



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  12. #12
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    I must confess that I have restarted from the beginning. I was doing too many save/reloads for it to feel authentic. This time I will take some steps to make sure that I have better balance between all my fronts. From the start I'm going to send that extra army in Attica through the gulf of Corinth to hang out in Aetolia and the west. My failure to ever send an army over there meant that I ignored all those nice AOR units. Those Aetolian peltasts are an amazing bargain for the price. I want to be using them in an army ASAP.

    This time around I'm also going to increase the amount of Marines in my fleets. My usual system was 4-4-4 plus the admiral. If I'm expecting ground operations or massive fleets, I'll up the amount of marines to 8-4-4 or more. I love the speedy 1st class skirmish ships, but I need the sturdiness of the 80-man Marine ships for rough naval action or amphibious operations. For amphibious operations in particular, I will try and use more Samian Marines as they're a cheaper, but slower, Marine alternative.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    I must confess that I have restarted from the beginning. I was doing too many save/reloads for it to feel authentic. This time I will take some steps to make sure that I have better balance between all my fronts. From the start I'm going to send that extra army in Attica through the gulf of Corinth to hang out in Aetolia and the west. My failure to ever send an army over there meant that I ignored all those nice AOR units. Those Aetolian peltasts are an amazing bargain for the price. I want to be using them in an army ASAP.

    This time around I'm also going to increase the amount of Marines in my fleets. My usual system was 4-4-4 plus the admiral. If I'm expecting ground operations or massive fleets, I'll up the amount of marines to 8-4-4 or more. I love the speedy 1st class skirmish ships, but I need the sturdiness of the 80-man Marine ships for rough naval action or amphibious operations. For amphibious operations in particular, I will try and use more Samian Marines as they're a cheaper, but slower, Marine alternative.
    Mate nothing wrong with that!
    It is actually a good idea now that you have a feel for the mod. Just do not expect the exact same events to play out as it did before. Your enemies will have the same overall goal but they might take different steps at different times.

    When I first tried the mod I tried Korinthos, Athenai, Sparta and rage quit every time to the point I did not touch it for a year. I did not read the manuals or do any research - I was punished greatly for my hubris.

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    Last edited by Badnercalabrese; January 18, 2018 at 07:11 PM.

  14. #14
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Oh yeah man, the AI is crazy. XD

    In a mostly good way, though. They go roughly the same direction, but they can be quite variable in the actions they take. For example. First turn I march both my armies in Attica over to the coast of the Gulf of Corinth to have one of them set sail the next turn for Aetolia (the second army is there as backup). Every time this leads to nothing weird. Most recent time........Corinth and Thebes decide to arrange their armies just so and attack my armies. I was floored. Did the computer get wise to my meta strategy and try to foil me? Probably not, but the illusion is there.

    I love, but also hate, fighting that scripted Spartan stack in Attica. Those hoplites are soooooooo tanky. At least I had my Logades this time around. They might actually be my best flanking force (other than javelins). Once I got them into the rear of the Spartiates that were grinding down my general, it was curtains. Much better than when I charged my Hippeus into them. I think maybe 2 Spartiates died. Way more Hippeus horses died. Don't rear charged high level Spartan hoplites with cavalry, I've decided. I would have tried a deep phalanx and othismos, but the Spartans had too many excess hoplites, preventing me from realistically shortening my line. Next time I'll be more creative with a refused flank or something.

    Important question: do the Athenians get a free warship in Athens every time they conquer a port settlement? I have a fleet docked there, and it is steadily filling up with ships. Either javelins or generic marines - not Athenian marines. That's what caught my eye because I absolutely did not recruit them. But I captured a port settlement somewhere, and boom, another ship appeared. Is that intentional?

    I have done one save/reload so far.......solely to prevent an early demise by Socrates. A Theban champion slaughtered him, which seemed rather rude.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Oh yeah man, the AI is crazy. XD

    In a mostly good way, though. They go roughly the same direction, but they can be quite variable in the actions they take. For example. First turn I march both my armies in Attica over to the coast of the Gulf of Corinth to have one of them set sail the next turn for Aetolia (the second army is there as backup). Every time this leads to nothing weird. Most recent time........Corinth and Thebes decide to arrange their armies just so and attack my armies. I was floored. Did the computer get wise to my meta strategy and try to foil me? Probably not, but the illusion is there.

    I love, but also hate, fighting that scripted Spartan stack in Attica. Those hoplites are soooooooo tanky. At least I had my Logades this time around. They might actually be my best flanking force (other than javelins). Once I got them into the rear of the Spartiates that were grinding down my general, it was curtains. Much better than when I charged my Hippeus into them. I think maybe 2 Spartiates died. Way more Hippeus horses died. Don't rear charged high level Spartan hoplites with cavalry, I've decided. I would have tried a deep phalanx and othismos, but the Spartans had too many excess hoplites, preventing me from realistically shortening my line. Next time I'll be more creative with a refused flank or something.

    Important question: do the Athenians get a free warship in Athens every time they conquer a port settlement? I have a fleet docked there, and it is steadily filling up with ships. Either javelins or generic marines - not Athenian marines. That's what caught my eye because I absolutely did not recruit them. But I captured a port settlement somewhere, and boom, another ship appeared. Is that intentional?

    I have done one save/reload so far.......solely to prevent an early demise by Socrates. A Theban champion slaughtered him, which seemed rather rude.
    My first attempt with Argos ended with failure. I thought I was safe slowly buildibg up but I was attacked early on with 3 full stacks, 2 Mantinean and 1 heavy Spartan. I had one full medium stack and my garrison. I was not encamped with my army and lost - I accepted it as a failed campaign.



    I do believe that Athens does receive a free ship in that situation. If you have not checked the guide to Athens Phalangitis made it is worth a read.

    Btw this is 'sportfriend'.

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  16. #16
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    I looked around and can't find an Athens guide specifically by Phalangitis. Any idea on where I can find it?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    On the stickied threads there is a manual topic from Phalingitis.. you can dl for the mod - for Athens specific an experienced player wrote this up

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=726703

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  18. #18
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Ah, gotcha. I had seen those, though a fuller understanding has only come from playing through it myself. I was finally able to recruit more Prodromoi today after I conquered the Thracian region in the.......Abdera province. That listed an increased Prodromoi cap in description, and then I was suddenly able to recruit 1 additional Prodromoi unit. I'm guessing if I work up the Pasture building, it might have another cap boost there.

    I thought I was smart moving an early army to Aitolia, but since you can only recruit 1 unit a turn, it's not quite as beneficial as I thought. Need to figure out how I'm going to take out the Aetolians before the Spartan script arrives........

  19. #19

    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    Ah, gotcha. I had seen those, though a fuller understanding has only come from playing through it myself. I was finally able to recruit more Prodromoi today after I conquered the Thracian region in the.......Abdera province. That listed an increased Prodromoi cap in description, and then I was suddenly able to recruit 1 additional Prodromoi unit. I'm guessing if I work up the Pasture building, it might have another cap boost there.

    I thought I was smart moving an early army to Aitolia, but since you can only recruit 1 unit a turn, it's not quite as beneficial as I thought. Need to figure out how I'm going to take out the Aetolians before the Spartan script arrives........
    Now this you will have to find out...even in that manual it suggests taking thermon. With merc cav, lots of skirmishers you can outmaneuver them. The garrison is not very large and their army wont be much - the peltasts will do most damage but cavalry removes them easily as you know.

    Try to attack their army and bring the garrison out to help them.

    I just did not like having an army there because it was so hard to reinforce - maybe just keep light and medium troops, lots of skirmishers and as much cav as possible

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  20. #20
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Mostly About Mytilene

    Oh my god, Thracian Royal Cavalry absolutely DISGUSTING! I just watched in horror as one unit pin-balled between the rear flanks of multiple light hoplite units, single handedly breaking my formation. Fortunately I had enough Cretan mercs to shoot them down and then shoot down the ocean of peltasts they brought along. Jeez, those Thracian armies can be real terrors.

    Was kind of hoping for a special Thracian AoR unit when I captured their final settlement.........

    One thing I've been having an occasional problem with is my cavalry routing while chasing large groups of routing units. It sort of makes sense I guess, but requires a certain unlearning of traditional habits.

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